MarkRohfrietsch said:

To me, false ecumenism is trying to assimilate everyone into a church where everyone is a cookie-cutter clone of each other.

This experiment was tried here in Canada; it was called the "United Church of Canada" and absorbed most of the Presbyterian Churches out side of Ontario, some Anglicans, United Methodists, free Methodists, EUB some Baptists, Christian Reformed, and a bunch of other free Congregationalists. This experiment is failing at an alarming rate; 40 years ago my little city had 4 UCC Churches, two were huge. Now there is only one left, and they rent it out as a performance hall while the rest of the membership gradually disappears. Same thing is happening with all of the other non denominational/Pentecostal/Baptist churches. Their membership moves from one to the other chasing personalities who tell them what they want to hear.

At least, with Conservative, Confessional Liturgical Churches, they strive to understand their differences, and recognize where their beliefs and practices align, and accept where they do not. This is true ecumenism. Not only is each Communion different from another, but within each, each congregation is different in different ways.

In the Scriptures, it Paul's Epistles, we see different Churches facing different challenges; likewise in The Revelation; each of those 7 churches is unique and facing unique issues, yet they are still in fellowship and unity with each other; yet only one of them still exists.

This thread has not been one of Christian love, but of polemic anger and hatred for fellow Christians.

I regret participating.

Sola Deo Gloria!

Mark

Click to expand...

I agree from an ecumenism angle, but I don’t believe that is what unity is all about. I seem to recall when we were on staff together there was a tight bond between most of us who actually believed in the mission of this website. That is what unity is all about. The bond one has with fellow believers. Not forcing people to try to agree to doctrines and beliefs they feel to be in error. I left CF about 10 years ago, and when I came back I reforged old friendships with many I worked on staff with. I thought at the time we had developed a friendship as staff members, but it seems I was wrong. And I am truly sad that you hold doctrines over unity.

You point fingers at others and complain about hate and anger, but when I entered the thread, it was because you made it fairly clear your stance is no longer one of tolerance. Maybe it always was and I didn't recognize it at the time.

johnnypapa said:

“We Should Not Ask for the Persecution to End”

“…that there be a hero in every Catholic, as in the time of Nero.”

onepeterfive.com

Click to expand...

Ugh. I think that is being “superspiritual”.

DaisyDay said:

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth offered his own justification for the strike the same day. “Every boatload of any form of drug that poisons the American people is an imminent threat. And at the DoD our job is to defeat imminent threats,” he told a group of journalists. “A foreign terrorist organization poisoning your people with drugs coming from a drug cartel is no different than Al Qaeda, and they will be treated as such as they were in international waters.”

Click to expand...

....notice his pathetic attempt to conflate drug traffickers withe Al Qaeda.

Congress has not authorized the military to attack Tren de Agua, MS-13 nor any other gang that the "Secretary of War" is trying to portray as an "immnent threat" to our national security.

The operation was illegal.

Michie said:

In this life we seek to accompany and pray for those who suffer.

One of the great mysteries to believers and nonbelievers is that of evil and suffering. If there is a God who is omnipotent and omniscient, how can he tolerate evil, injustice and the suffering of the innocent — including this week: Children were killed and injured while praying at an all-school Mass in Minneapolis.

Why does God allow innocent people, even children, to suffer so?

The problem of evil cannot be answered simply. It is a mystery. Its purpose and why God permits it are caught up in our limited vision and understanding. Scripture says, “All things work together for the good of those who love and trust the Lord and are called according to his purposes” (Romans 8:28). But in many circumstances, it is difficult for us to see how this is so.

Anyone who has ever suffered a tragic and senseless loss or observed the disproportionate suffering that some must endure cannot help but ask, “Why?” And the answers aren’t all that satisfying, for suffering is ultimately mysterious in many ways.

Continued below.

If God Is Love, Why Does He Let Terrible Things Happen?

COMMENTARY: In this life we seek to accompany and pray for those who suffer.

www.ncregister.com

Click to expand...

Short of suggesting that God’s Love is a fiction - which is what I usually think - there seem to be at least two other possibilities:

1) When speaking of God, what human beings understand by attributes such as Goodness & Truth & Love bears no relation to what those attributes might be in God; God’s “idea“ of a circle might be what among us is a polyhedron, or even a chicken, or something else even less like a circle;
- and, it could be that God‘s “idea” of good, is what we would think of as evil.

Either way, it could be that the notion of goodness among humans is completely useless as a guide to indicating what God judges to be good. IOW, God is ultimately completely unknowable, and revelation is impossible.

Or:

2) God’s Love is real, but, the word falls so far short of the reality that it is of little use as a guide to it. Because there is “far more to” God’s Love - and thus, to God - than can possibly be conveyed by the word or the concept.

Since suffering is a fact, that cannot be trivialised, my guess is that there is no intellectual answer. Some things cannot be known by being reasoned about; human relationships are encounters between persons, not between a person‘s thinking, and what he is thinking of. Reason alone is not adequate to account for human relationships, though it is not of no importance in them. We know people by the act and state of knowing them; just as we swim by swimming, and not by studying swimming, or by thinking about swimming. Human relationships are, so to speak, a form of human personality in practice, & not simply in theory.

I think that coping with suffering is so intimately & irreducibly personal, and even private, that an intellectual answer to it would be useless, & perhaps an impertinence, a piece of all too glib & superficial bad taste. I think God gets round these difficulties, by sharing in the suffering of creatures; and by using and transforming & transnaturalising it, and by redeeming it. And by living it out through human beings, especially in His Church, which is His Body. I don’t think there is an “answer” to “the problem of suffering”, except Christ Crucified and Raised and Ascended.

Why not get rid of suffering entirely; perhaps by never allowing it to arise in the first place ? I think there are several answers to this, none of which is the only possible one.

1) Maybe some goods cannot come to be, unless suffering is allowed as well.
2) Maybe some evils are evil, not in themselves, but from the POV of some, but not all, who encounter them. Among these would be evils that are misused goods.
3) I think there is something to be said for the idea that an evil can be an uncompleted good - that would apply to something such as the imprisonment of Joseph in the Book of Genesis. The theological point stands, even if the story is fiction.

One must of course be very wary of falling into the trap of justifying enormities, however unintentionally.

Hentenza said:

Why would it not be normal to be Jewish?

Click to expand...

Vast majority of people in the world aren't Jewish. Hence, it's not normal.

honey badger said:

who exactly are these ignorant lying hypocrites you constantly refer to ... asking because the way in which you say these things i don't know if you are aiming this at me ...

as for myself i no longer judge His firstborn ....

Click to expand...

The spirits of disobedience that ALL are bound to in the flesh, those are the automatic lying hypocrites who deny their hiding place in people.

You'd have to be blind not to hear them and see their works. Or perceive them in your own thoughts

No person is required to be judged in that process, but they are judged

David Lamb said:

I have just been back to the original post, and yes, it does say "avoid theological subjects", but even so, this is a Christian forum, so it seems an unrealistic expectation to desire posters not even to refer to God as God.

Click to expand...

The "Eternal" without any other added imagery carries sufficient meaning to use objectively. Subjectively speaking, the term God begins to be confused with religions and subjective imagery. But, objectively speaking, I agree it's an unrealistic expectation to not discuss the essence of reality. Even in physics, quantum theory is contemplating quantum fields in space and time which seems to me scripture is referring to as The Word of creation in John 1.

See this dichotomy ---> Real/unreal. <--- If these were two boxes labeled real and unreal intending logical sentiments to reason upon, then it seems like there would be nothing to put in the unreal box. It would be empty and carry no substantive meaning except non-existence or fiction. But if we consider that the only thing that is truly real is that which is Eternal to begin with, then the term "unreal" could apply to the temporal.

A New Dawn said:

I suggested reading Jake Tapper’s book. Go to a library and check it out if you don’t want to buy it.

But first, why don’t you tell us all what decisions were made by Elon Musk in those cabinet meetings he attended that everyone on the left was up in arms about.

Click to expand...

Not going to be something to be found in a library over here. And since you seem to be knowledgeable about the topic so like asked previously... Examples?
I mean, I'm sure you're not making claims without any actual knowledge about the source you're citing, right?

CerebralCherub said:

Do you believe baptism is required for salvation?

Our church teaches against this and has told us that only 'cults' believe in this because it is contrary to scripture.

I'm interested because it is something that my mom believed before we read the scripture together and I passed on the knowledge from my church. Up until that point, I never even knew she believed that baptism was a requirement for salvation.

Click to expand...

I used to belong to a church that taught this. It was a cult.

Vambram said:

Americans have different legal rights than foreigners narco terrorists cartels.

Click to expand...

Apparently, the Trump administration thinks they have no rights.

Vambram said:

But, if you want to continue to surrender to the narco cartels of Mexico and Venezuela, please by all means, be my guest. On the other hand, I believe that the narco cartels responsible for killing more Americans than WW1 & WW2 must be destroyed.

Click to expand...

Ah, so either I go along with blowing up boats or I am surredering? What kind of nonsense is that Vabram?

7thKeeper said:

Yet, no examples of what decisions weren't made by him... Hmm...

Click to expand...

I suggested reading Jake Tapper’s book. Go to a library and check it out if you don’t want to buy it.

But first, why don’t you tell us all what decisions were made by Elon Musk in those cabinet meetings he attended that everyone on the left was up in arms about.

Photooxidizing

To me, false ecumenism is trying to assimilate everyone into a church where everyone is a cookie-cutter clone of each other.

This experiment was tried here in Canada; it was called the "United Church of Canada" and absorbed most of the Presbyterian Churches out side of Ontario, some Anglicans, United Methodists, free Methodists, EUB some Baptists, Christian Reformed, and a bunch of other free Congregationalists. This experiment is failing at an alarming rate; 40 years ago my little city had 4 UCC Churches, two were huge. Now there is only one left, and they rent it out as a performance hall while the rest of the membership gradually disappears. Same thing is happening with all of the other non denominational/Pentecostal/Baptist churches. Their membership moves from one to the other chasing personalities who tell them what they want to hear.

At least, with Conservative, Confessional Liturgical Churches, they strive to understand their differences, and recognize where their beliefs and practices align, and accept where they do not. This is true ecumenism. Not only is each Communion different from another, but within each, each congregation is different in different ways.

In the Scriptures, it Paul's Epistles, we see different Churches facing different challenges; likewise in The Revelation; each of those 7 churches is unique and facing unique issues, yet they are still in fellowship and unity with each other; yet only one of them still exists.

This thread has not been one of Christian love, but of polemic anger and hatred for fellow Christians.

I regret participating.

Sola Deo Gloria!

Mark

PK_VDMA said:

Oh, my motivation is calling out the neocons, Israel-first fanatics, and the warmongering dispensationalism heresy who wrap it in a bow and call it Christianity and claim to be speaking on behalf of Christians on matters of modern Israel.

Click to expand...

You have anger issues. May I suggest some quiet time praying and reading scripture in particular about the love of God for all that are His and how to treat your brothers in Christ.

Secondly, spend some time reading the rules of CF. Insults and attacks are against the rules.

The Barbarian said:

There are billions of them doing just that. But aside from our own species...

Click to expand...

Oh dear, again the evols Koko/Kanzi smoke. You really have to think before you post. Three conditions proposed: Wild - Apes - Talking. And you give us zoo born apes that don't talk. Well, you got apes - that's good. But sadly missed the other two. You don't need apes. My dog Fido does as much. We call that behavior conditioning. Please try again.

The Barbarian said:

The great thing about debating about things like evolution is that facts matter.

Click to expand...

Yes, facts -- not speculations -- do matter. Got any?

The Barbarian said:

... we have observed cases of macroevolution ...

Click to expand...

Early in this thread, I asked for you to enlighten us on your observation of a macro event. Your reply: <crickets>.

Let me help you out on your obvious logic failure. Evols claim that millions of micro events must (a moral word) result in an imperceptible macro event. Kindly lookup the definition of "imperceptible".

Hentenza said:

Looks like this guy just joined to bash Israel. Make me wonder what his actual motivation is.

Click to expand...

Oh, my motivation is calling out the neocons, Israel-first fanatics, and the warmongering dispensationalism heresy who wrap it in a bow and call it Christianity and claim to be speaking on behalf of Christians on matters of modern Israel.

The Arab states have repeatedly paid lip service to the Palestinian cause. They maintain these camps and the miserable living conditions that prevail there in order to pressure Israel into granting a "right of return", which would allow millions of Palestinians to flood the Jewish state and destroy its Jewish majority and thus its very existence (Neither under the general international conventions, nor under the major UN resolutions, do the "Palestinian" refugees have a right to return to Israel). Arab leaders do not care whether the refugees live or die.

In the current war between Israel and Hamas, Egypt has kept its border with the Gaza Strip closed because it does not want "Palestinian" terrorists to enter the country and destabilize Egypt. Jordan has also refused to take in "Palestinians" caught between the fronts in the war between Israel and Hamas. In fact, not a single Arab state has offered refuge to the "Palestinians".

In short, most Arab states view "Palestinians"" as pariahs and use them as a tool to achieve their own goals. They have kept "Palestinians" impoverished and stateless, refusing to integrate them into their societies in the hope that this would support "Palestinian" self-determination.

Nevertheless, Arab states continue to condemn Israel's treatment of the "Palestinians".

As it turns out, Gazans have steadily emigrated from the Strip for years, with few political repercussions abroad.

In Gaza, a recent "Palestinian" research study noted,

Since 2007, local reports have confirmed that over 250,000 youths migrated from the Gaza Strip in pursuit of a thriving life in Europe. In August 2023, alone, there were over 16,700 Turkish visa applications submitted by young adults living in the Gaza Strip’s five governorates.

Click to expand...

And all of this movement occurred before the war, one can only imagine today’s pent-up demand for leaving the Strip and seeking a better life elsewhere.

Arab states currently reject the very idea of voluntary relocation because they fear numerous Gazans would in fact take that option, more than their societies can absorb.

Postwar plans for Gaza on the concept of voluntary refugee resettlement could result in 40 percent or more of the Strip’s total population leaving of their own accord. If half of Gaza’s refugee population chose to relocate over a ten-year reconstruction period, that would average out to around 70,000 per year. Finding homes for 70,000 per year is not an insurmountable burden.

DaisyDay said:

Shouldn't the flooring be durable enough to withstand carts?

Click to expand...

He probably got the same contractor who built the wall that fell into the Rio Grande on its own, or the one who built the wall that can be cut through with tools from Home Depot. Because illegal immigrants are unfamiliar with tools and Home Depot.

Oompa Loompa said:

Do you truly believe that Trump will erect a golden statue of himself in a Whitehouse ballroom for worshipping purposes? If so, the statement is pure emotional hyperbole void and any reason.

Click to expand...

AFAIK, it’s been his fans who’ve erected the idols.

Hentenza said:

Israel continues to help the United States deal with traditional security threats. The two countries share intelligence on terrorism, nuclear proliferation, and Middle Eastern politics. Israel's military experiences have shaped the United States' approach to counterterrorism and homeland security. The two governments work together to develop sophisticated military technology, such as the David's Sling counter-rocket and Arrow missile defense systems, which may soon be ready for export to other U.S. allies. Israel has also emerged as an important niche defense supplier to the U.S. military, with sales growing from $300 million per year before September 11 to $1.1 billion in 2006, due to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel's military research and development complex has pioneered many cutting-edge technologies that are transforming the face of modern war, including cyberweapons, unmanned vehicles (such as land robots and aerial drones), sensors and electronic warfare systems, and advanced defenses for military vehicles.

The U.S.-Israeli alliance has paved the way for the countries to cooperate on far more than just traditional security issues. In part because of the long-standing political and security relationship between the United States and Israel, most Israelis know the United States and harbor positive feelings toward it. Israeli companies looking for a global market for their products have often viewed their American counterparts as partners of choice. So today, Israeli civilian technological innovations are helping the United States maintain its economic competitiveness, promote sustainable development, and address a range of non-military security challenges.

Dozens of leading U.S. companies have set up technology incubators in Israel to take advantage of the country's penchant for new ideas, which is why Bill Gates observed in 2006 that the "innovation going on in Israel is critical to the future of the technology business." Likewise, Israeli high-tech firms often turn to U.S. companies as partners for joint production and marketing opportunities in the United States and elsewhere, creating tens of thousands of American jobs. And although Israelis make up just three percent of the population of the Middle East, in 2011 Israel was the destination of 25 percent of all U.S. exports to the region, having recently eclipsed Saudi Arabia as the top market there for American products.

Friends with Benefits: Why the U.S.-Israeli Alliance Is Good for America

The bilateral relationship is based on tangible, steadily increasing security and economic interests, not just shared values.

www.washingtoninstitute.org

Click to expand...

Sigh. You really have bought into the neocon AIPAC propaganda. Wake up.

Aaron112 said:

I have not seen any other posts or info about you other than apparently "Lutheran".
Regardless of history though, for anyone,
do you read and agree with God's Word (Scripture) ?

The Creator's blessings in particular. And associated curses as well. Usually along with every promise or blessing in Scripture, there's a curse also.

Click to expand...

Apparently "Lutheran"—yes, I’m an evangelical Catholic, also known as a conservative confessional Lutheran.

“Regardless of history though, for anyone,
do you read and agree with God's Word (Scripture) ?”

Absolutely, and sacred scriptures crystal clear: the Church is Israel—not the monstrosity created in 1948 that has led to endless war on Israel’s behalf or direct engagement by Israel and suffering for Christians in the Middle East.

The geopolitical AIPAC Israel-first neocon warmongering policy is not the future of American conservatism, and it certainly has no place in the church (or at least historical orthodox Christianity).

Xeno.of.athens said:

The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:16 NRSV-CE

Click to expand...

You haven't answered the point I made.

Are you saying, then, that if someone is dying of cancer, hears the Gospel preached and responds, accepts Jesus and declares him as Lord and Saviour but dies before they can be baptised, they are condemned? That believing in Jesus, accepting God's Son and receiving him, John 1:12, isn't enough? That God will still say, "you believed in my Son but you died before a priest could baptise you; you're going to hell"?

Jesus alone saves - NOT Jesus + baptism, Jesus + church doctrine, Jesus + anything.
Why would Jesus have suffered such agony if all that was needed for salvation was a bit of water?