Colo Millz said:

21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”

English Standard Version Catholic Edition (n.p.: Augustine Institute, 2019), Ga 4:21–27.

May there not be very many other OT passages that can be interpreted allegorically?

Is Paul's method here not an exemplar to us of proper exegesis?

Paul assumes the existence of the mystical sense (cf. § 40) in Scripture, in which events and figures of the OT are types of the NT. Taking yet another illustration from the history of Abraham, he shows that those who rely on the Law instead of faith in the Promise áre to be excluded from the inheritance; cf. Prat, op. cit., I, 221. 22. Cf. Gen 16:15; 17:15–21; 21:2, 9. 23. ‘According to the flesh’: on the one side all happened according to nature; but on the other, according to a divine promise, miraculously realized. 24. ‘Which things are allegorically interpreted’ as follows. 25. ‘(For Sinai is a mountain in Arabia)’: a supplementary confirmation of his interpretation inserted in parenthesis; for Ismael is connected with Arabia through being the ancestor of the chief Arab tribe. Arabia then denoted all the land S. and E. of Palestine. ‘She corresponds to that Jerusalem.…’ 26. i.e. the Church. 27. Cf. Is 54:1, with which the Rabbis connected Is 51:2

Dom B. Orchard, “Galatians,” in A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, ed. Bernard Orchard and Edmund F. Sutcliffe (Toronto; New York; Edinburgh: Thomas Nelson, 1953), 1117.

24. Which things are said by allegory; literally, ἅτινα ὲστιν ἀλληγορούμενα, which things are allegorized, i.e., the things narrated in Genesis regarding the sons and marriages of Abraham, signifying at the same time other things altogether different from themselves. By an allegory, writers on rhetoric understand a lengthened or continued metaphor. Ecclesiastical writers generally understand it to denote a figure in things, by which one thing is employed to typify or signify another of quite a different nature. “For these,” αὗται γὰρ, i.e., the marriages, or, according to others, the two wives of Abraham. “Are,” i.e., signify “the two Testaments”—viz., the New and the Old. “The one indeed from Mount Sina.” The Old Testament took its rise from Mount Sina; because, there was promulgated the Law, the observance of which was among the primary conditions of the Old Covenant. “Which bringeth forth into bondage.” The Old Testament brought forth children into the bondage of the Mosaic Law, a law of servitude, both on account of the multitude of its precepts, which neither the Jews nor their fathers could bear, as also on account of the spirit of fear which it inspired. “Which is Agar;” and this covenant is represented by Agar.

John MacEvilly, An Exposition of the Epistles of St. Paul and of the Catholic Epistles, vol. 1 (Dublin; New York: M. H. Gill & Son; Benziger Brothers, 1898), 390–391.

Ancient Christian interpreters practised typological and allegorical readings to uncover the spiritual meaning of biblical texts in order to deepen their understanding of God. They did not consider such readings fanciful or arbitrary because they had a different view of reality from us moderns. Ancient interpreters assumed a connection between mind and a higher order of reality. For them, sacred texts were windows to divine realities. Theologians call this the ‘sacramental’ quality of language and texts, that is, their ability to mediate transcendent, divine truths. Already in the Greek philosophical use of Homer or in rabbinic interpretation of the Bible, the text was not read in a strictly literal or historical sense. In contrast to modern literalism, texts were treated as cryptic, containing hidden spiritual insights. Even historical events were means of conveying spiritual truths.

Zimmermann, Jens. Hermeneutics: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) (pp. 84-85). OUP Oxford. Kindle Edition.

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You have opened up a real can of worms here. In answer to your question, yes, one can easily find all manner of allegorical interpretations of both the Old and the New Testaments. Many of these, as I am sure you know, are quite spurious, if not downright heretical. It has been my personal experience that virtually all extrabiblical allegorical interpretations serve a primary purpose to introduce or support extrabiblical doctrines.

...girls were girls and men were men.

Mister we could use...

Delvianna said:

I already did... 10 commandments. As I stated, it was given to Abraham, that Moses then put and wrote down. The rules are the same. It literally comes down to this... I don't need to "prove" anything. At the end of the day, everyone accounts for their life. I'm simply choosing to accept that God's moral laws are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow which is how we know what laws we continually break. Romans is a good argument for this. You keep going back to 613 rules when I keep stating 10 commandments. It's like you're choosing to ignore what I keep saying and just repeating your stance instead. So it seems like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing since you aren't listening and I keep having to re-iterate the same things...

Good day to you.

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Nice! I like the idea of keeping the ten commandments. I have done it perfectly all my life.

Wife often says I'm useless.

prodromos said:

Of course this is all moot because sundials do have to have adjustments made in order to match clock time, thus you have just debunked yourself, proving the earth is not flat.

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prodromos said:

Unfortunately, you just accept whatever you hear from flat earthers

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No I don't, you said that they had to make adjustments to these sundials, why after so many thousands of years of using them would they feel the need to adjust them ?

Could it be the fairy tale globe kicking in again ?

overloaded cart

chevyontheriver said:

I don’t think I hated more than about ten people this morning at mass out of all the people there. I really doubt that you are hated by that many at your mass. Maybe you are hated by exactly nobody. It’s possible.

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It’s probable.

comana said:

He made this clear in his first term and is going all out to enforce it in his second. He is only President of those who support him and all other can go to…

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Likely true but many groups that supported him are also in the crosshairs now; Like farmers and ranchers.

cart horse

Wanted: a perfectly excellent wife.

very traditional yum

steak and kidney pie?

Hentenza said:

You tell me. Which commandments are those. The tablets of stone were not given for another 430 years. The commandments that God gave Abraham related to circumcision not to the Jewish law.

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I already did... 10 commandments. As I stated, it was given to Abraham, that Moses then put and wrote down. The rules are the same. It literally comes down to this... I don't need to "prove" anything. At the end of the day, everyone accounts for their life. I'm simply choosing to accept that God's moral laws are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow which is how we know what laws we continually break. Romans is a good argument for this. You keep going back to 613 rules when I keep stating 10 commandments. It's like you're choosing to ignore what I keep saying and just repeating your stance instead. So it seems like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing since you aren't listening and I keep having to re-iterate the same things...

Good day to you.

things seemed to be better.

In the "good old days" . . .

It sounds like a wonderful place to visit! You've sold me on taking a trip to Queensland someday.

SabbathBlessings said:

Regarding the 4th commandment, it is not just the commandment for the Sabbath, it’s actually the commandment how to keep all days. Exo 20:8-11. There is only one weekly holy convocation in Scripture Lev 23:3 the one that Jesus kept Luke4:16, the same one the apostles kept Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts18:4 and the one that continues for eternity Isa 66:22-23. God is consistent and changes not.

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And yet He gave us a new covenant. Go figure.

I do not disagree with anything written here but will say that the debt of the EU, Japan and the USA is a three legged stool. The only reason things work is that the help each other carry the weight. Otherwise the exchange rates would knock one of the legs out. If a leg were to break first, I would consider Japan. Their debt to GDP ratio is 216%. For those not familiar with debt to GDP, it is calculated by the total amount of debt / the total amount of all goods and services produced in that nation. In comparison the USA is 125%. So for Japan, to pay back the 216% government debt, they would need to spend absolutely nothing, not even paying individual debt for two years and about 33 days and still work just as hard as they do today. The USA would need to work 1 year and 3 months.

Like the USA though the reality is that Japan's debt is rising. I will say too that these levels are already in uncharted territory, meaning that economists have no idea how far anyone can go. In part it depends on faith in the currency. That is why gold is at 4000 an ounce now because more and more are not finding faith in fiat currency. The yen is suffering, the dollar also to a lesser extent. This latest year even the Mexican peso appreciated against the dollar about ten percent.

Of course other nations have gone off the cliff before. Typically it ends in inflation. Zimbabwe for example, had a million percent inflation in a year. I think they are now facing another crisis, just a few years after that.

I watch the Treasury auctions at times. Below is a sample of the auction calendar for two days just in the short-term bills. Source:

I should say that most of the debt auctions are not new debt. It is just debt expiring and paid off with new debt. That is like paying your visa bill of 1300 with 1000 of new debt and letting the 300 extra spent ride until a later date. The USA government has been doing that since President Clinton. Not a single dollar of debt has been paid except by rolling it over into new debt. For every dollar the US Fed Govt takes in as revenue projected in 2025, it will spend a 1.37 (google ai) The total amount of public debt has never been positive for a single year since Clinton. So the USA needs growth and inflation to help reduce the old debt. Inflation helps because the dollars are easier to earn when you make a loaf of bread cost five dollars, even better if the loaf is 50 dollars. It would be OK, but wages rarely keep up with inflation. Growth too means that the USA is expanding and more output makes it easier to pay off debt.

I did not want to make this too long, but I just looked at Argentina. It's peso is down over 70% against the dollar in the last year. It's debt to GDP ratio is about 70% of GDP, or a little over half of the USA or a third of japan. Sounds ok, but Argentina has defaulted on debt like 3 times in the last 25 years. So with poor credit you do not get the 150% debt to GDP level without a crisis. So i asked ai what their highest debt to GDP ratio was. The answer "Approximately 166% in 2001-2002."

It was late 2001 when they had a major financial crisis. So the difference between Argentina and the U.S. or Japan? They are a much smaller economy and will not too big too fail for the system to absorb their losses. So while the US is near their highest level of debt and japan is well over that, no one is panicking yet but you can't spend 1.37 for every dollar you take in forever.

SabbathBlessings said:

You could read the OP and respond with Scripture and not just your opinion that you disagree with plain Scripture that it does not mean what it plainly says. Our opinions are important to us, but they do not equal God’s Word. Jesus said to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God Mat4:4 quoting OT. That’s a lot of deleting what God said about God’s Sabbath commandment to make ones doctrine work. We can choose to fight against what Jesus said to live by or cooperate with Him. Life is about choices.

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You have not provided a verse that shows that people kept the Jewish sabbath prior to Moses or a post crucifixion verse that requires the Christian to keep the 4th commandment. That is all I’m asking for.

Delvianna said:

Genesis 26:5

What statutes and laws are those?? This is Abraham speaking... So there are laws and commands that God has ordained from the beginning, that Moses eventually wrote down. That doesn't mean they didn't exist before hand and that doesn't mean that they weren't required to follow them either.

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You tell me. Which commandments are those. The tablets of stone were not given for another 430 years. The commandments that God gave Abraham related to circumcision not to the Jewish law.

Delvianna said:

10 Commandments

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Prove it.

Delvianna said:

Post Crucifixion, you had people going around and telling about what Jesus taught. Does the scripture literally have to spell it out for you on which to follow when Jesus says to keep HIS Commandments?! Where they different commandments that Jesus taught that overwrote the original 10? No, there is not.

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After the crucifixion every single appearance happened on the first day. The apostles continued to go to the temple to preach to the Jews. Paul even says that to the Jew he becomes a Jew so that He might gain Jews.

“To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the Law, I became as one under the Law, though not being under the Law myself, so that I might gain those who are under the Law;”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭9‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice also that he also became one under the law so that he might gain those under the law. The Jewish law INCLUDED the 10 commandments.

Delvianna said:

Fulfill, not abolish.

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Completed. All done. No need to redo it. The new covenant does not include the law (Gal. 3).

Delvianna said:

If you don't follow God's moral law, and I'm talking about what God gave, not what the Jews turned it into, then how do you know if you're sinning? So technically by your argument, I can lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery, not honor my father and mother, because God "fulfilled" the law in that way according to you. You hold two opposing view points.
A) Jesus talked about keeping 9/10 commandments
B) We can ignore the 10 commandments because Jesus fulfilled them.
It's one or the other, it cannot be both. Both is cognitive dissonance.

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The 4th commandment was never a moral law it was a ceremonial law. The levetical priesthood managed all 613 Jewish laws including those surrounding the sabbath.

Delvianna said:

Yes

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Nonsense.

Delvianna said:

Worshiping on sunday isn't against the commandment. If people don't work on saturday and go to church on sunday, you're still fine. I'm not sure why you lumped the two together. But to answer the rest of your question, if you're "living in sin" then yes, you would be in danger of not being saved. Just as living in a state of breaking any other one of God's commandments on a continual and habitual basis.

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If you consider the 4th commandment as a moral commandment and required of the Christian then your argument here does not follow becsuse those who worship in Sunday would be braking the moral 4th commandment. Do you not see the futility of your argument? Look, if you want to keep the 4th commandment then go right ahead. I am not here to judge you so don’t judge me or others.

“One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and the one who eats, does so with regard to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

bèlla said:

@DragonFox91 I subscribe to this through the library via the Libby app and thought of you. It has a nostalgic vibe and wholesome content. You might enjoy it. ;-)

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Thank you for thinking of me, that makes me feel happy.
I'm sure some of it I would like. But I also see that & feel like I got saved from that lifestyle.

your last will and testament

Are we taking a vote?

I think all the different denominations including new versions that believe going out and proselytizing have given a bad name to Christians lol. Its almost an inhouse joke, quick pretend your not home as theres some bible bashers coming lol.

In some ways its like sales. When you are walking by a sales display you want to avoid the sales pitch. Or the cold canvassers who ring or visit trying to get sales. It seems everyone wants to sell you something. Maybe its more a cultural thing and not just a religious thing.

Todays hyper consumerism, materialism, alternative ideas being promoted, companies and bloggers trying to get clicks and likes. Its coming at us left right and center.

I think back to the early Christian church and how I guess it was fairly new and there was a clear destinction. You knew another Christian. They often met in secrecy and had secret symbols like the 'fish' to let other Christians know. Paul would preach a destinct message that Christians and non Christians could know was different.

Its hard today to know whats going on. Theres not just religious ideas but all sorts of ideas about finding the answers to a better life. I think thats the problem. Maybe he should have just given you a card with a 'fish' symbol. Just a simple well known Christian symbol to say we are the same.

But also communication is fundemental. Its a two way communication. Someone makes a communication to the reciever. But they may not fully understand exactly what the senders actually trying to communicate.

So the reciever has to then find out from the sender. Get feedback. Each time it helps clarify exactly whats going on. Often we read into stuff that may not be there and the best way to find out is ask the sender. Or rather make another communication towards finding out.

Get in red limousine.

LIMO