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The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

You keep horribly miss-representing my posts. I never suggested or even implied that Jesus was supposed to sacrifice animals for His Sin. I will try one more time to explain myself.

The point I made, was that Jesus forgave sins as the Prophesied "Priest of God", but never by performing the "works of the Law" required by the temporary Levitical Priesthood, that was "ADDED" after the golden Calf.

Lev. 4: 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.


Priesthood works, BTW, that were still being promoted by the mainstream religions of Paul's Time, the Pharisees, who didn't believe Moses concerning Him, to the Galatians and continued to exalt themselves as God's Priests, requiring that men, the Galatians in this case, come to them with their sacrifices to perform these Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sin.

The point is, God's Laws that define Righteousness, Holiness and Sin, are eternal. While the LAW "ADDED" after the Golden Calf, for remission of sins, that Paul is speaking to in Galatians was temporary, "ADDED" Till the Seed should come. Added to Lead them to the True Lamb of God for remission of sins that are past.

At least this is what the Holy Scriptures teach.

You say:​

“Jesus forgave sins as the prophesied Priest of God, but never by performing the ‘works of the Law’ required by the temporary Levitical Priesthood, that was ‘ADDED’ after the golden calf.”
Response:

You’re correct that Jesus did not perform Levitical rituals — but not because those laws were “added” later as a temporary system separate from God’s true Law.
Scripture says those sacrifices were part of the Mosaic covenant itself given through Moses at Sinai, not “added after” the golden calf.

Exodus 24:6–8

“And Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar... and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.”
That blood offering for sin happened before the golden calf incident (Exodus 32).
So, animal sacrifice was not a reactionary “add-on” — it was an integral part of the Law from the start.

Jesus didn’t need to perform those “works of the Law” because He was the fulfillment of them.

Hebrews 10:11–12


“Every priest stands daily ministering and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God.”
Christ fulfilled those priestly functions once for all, not by rejecting them but by completing their purpose.

You say:​

“The Pharisees... continued to exalt themselves as God’s priests, requiring that men come to them with their sacrifices to perform these priesthood ‘works of the Law’ for remission of sin.”
Response:

The Pharisees were not Levitical priests.
They were lay teachers and legal interpreters, not the ones offering sacrifices.
The priesthood was centered in the Temple, not in Pharisaic synagogues.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees not for offering sacrifices but for trusting in their own righteousness through outward law-keeping (Luke 18:9–14).

Paul’s rebuke in Galatians wasn’t against people offering sacrifices to priests — it was against those who were saying circumcision and Mosaic observance were required for salvation (Galatians 2:16; 3:2–3; 5:1–4).

Galatians 2:16

“A man is not justified by works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ.”
So, the “works of the Law” in Galatians are not priestly rituals but any human attempt to be justified before God by law-keeping.

You say:​

“God’s Laws that define righteousness, holiness, and sin are eternal, while the Law ‘added’ after the Golden Calf for remission of sins was temporary — added till the Seed should come.”
Response:

Here’s the key misunderstanding:
Paul does say a law was “added,” but not because of the golden calf — rather, it was added because of transgressions(Galatians 3:19).

Galatians 3:19

“Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made…”
The “law added” refers to the entire Mosaic Law (including moral, civil, and ceremonial commands), given 430 years after Abraham (Galatians 3:17).
This timeline makes it clear the reference is to Sinai, not to the golden calf.

That Law was added as a temporary guardian — not to replace God’s eternal moral will, but to point sinners to Christ

Galatians 3:24–25

“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
The Law (in all its parts) served as a tutor — a shadow pointing to the reality (Hebrews 10:1).
Once the reality came, the shadow’s job was finished.

You say:​

“Added to lead them to the True Lamb of God for remission of sins that are past.”
Response:

On this point you’re absolutely right — the Law did point to the coming Lamb.
But Scripture goes further: once the Lamb came, the entire system that pointed to Him was fulfilled and set aside.

Hebrews 7:18–19

“For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did.”
The Law could reveal sin and foreshadow redemption — but it could not accomplish it.
Christ’s finished work replaced those shadows forever.


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The law, the commandments, and Christians.

When God commanded obedience of the Law of Moses, when you obey what he commanded, you show that you have faith.
Oh, ok, no reason for Jesus to come then, I guess. Nothing really new about the new covenant.

You have it a bit backwards. Faith saves because it unites you with the Vine, the source of authentic righteousnessw for man. It thereby justifes you. Faith is to say yes to God, yes to the reconciliation that Jesus accomplished between ourselves and Him. It's to be reconciled. From there, the righteousness that the law only testifies to can begin to flow in and through us like sap, and the sin that earns us death is overcome. There's no condemnation in Christ. The new covenant is not only about forgiveness of sin, but the power to triumph over it, the power to love as God does to put it best. Justification and salvation are inseparable from becoming personally just/righteous, with the gifts of grace given, now walking with the Holy Spirit.
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The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

Can you tell me where the law for animal sacrifices started at Creation?
Animal Sacrifices were practiced as far back as Abel, right after the Fall. Perhaps you can count the animal skins God gave Adam and Eve, and believe that Abel took that as a cue?

I don't know as if God required it, but He was pleased with it. God was also pleased with Israel's obedience in the matter of sacrificing animals under the Law of Moses.

All of these animal sacrifices took place in the OT era, when humanity had not yet received the means of overcoming their Sin Record. And so, God used animal sacrifice in the Law of Moses to show Israel that they could not by that system or by any other Man-oriented system, obtain Justification for Eternal Life. The only work that could obtain final Justification for Man, or for Eternal Life, was Christ.

As such, animal sacrifice was used by God in the OT era, and accepted from Abel in the pre-Christian era, because it represented the deficiency of human works with the record of Sin. Sinful Mankind had been expelled from Paradise and the Tree of Life. And all hope would be therefore placed not even in the work of sacrificing animals, but more in what doing that in faith represented--the sacrifice of Christ and his work.

I'm not going to indulge your long pre-prepared copy and paste statements that is no better than filibustering and an attempt to wear out anybody who wishes to disagree with you. What I've said here is sufficient to deal with your initial point. I've said this before, and so you obviously wish to just spread your false Gospel and ignore any complaints against it.
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God Worshiper or Law Worshiper?

God's law was never given as a way of earning our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience, but rather God graciously teaching to obey His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13). It is contradictory to think that salvation is found in God's Word made flesh, but not in following his example of embodying God's Word. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a embody it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not embodying it, but if Jesus fulfilled the law for us, then he would be removing his of salvation from us, so thankfully he did not do that. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so only those who are following his example of walking in obedience to God's law are in Christ, which is how his righteousness produces the fruit of obedience.


For example, if someone gives money to charity, then they succeeding at embodying the righteousness of God, so that is not beyond our ability. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that we will all fail at. The way to submit to God is by obeying His commandments through faith.


Character traits are not earned as the result of our works but other they are embodied through our works, so God's law was never given as a way to make us righteous, but as instructions for how to embody His righteousness. The only way for someone to attain a character trait is by faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to have a character trait is to be a doer of works that embody that trait, so while we become righteous by faith apart from works, it would be contradictory for someone to become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works. What it means for God to make us righteous is for Him to make us into a doer of righteous works and the way that He does that is by graciously teaching us to be a doer of His law.

You say:

“God graciously teaching us to obey His law is the way that He is giving us His gift of salvation (Titus 2:11-13).”
Answer:
Titus 2:11–13 does not say grace = law-teaching saves us.
It says grace saves us first, and then that same grace trains us to live godly lives.

Titus 2:11–12

“For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions…”
Notice the order:

  1. Grace appearsbrings salvation.
  2. Then grace trains the saved → to obey.
The teaching comes after salvation, not as the vehicle of salvation.
Grace produces obedience; obedience does not produce grace.

Ephesians 2:8–10

“For by grace you have been saved through faith… not of works… For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works.”
We’re not saved by good works, but saved for them.


You say:

“It is contradictory to think salvation is found in God’s Word made flesh but not in following His example of embodying God’s Word.”
Answer:
We are indeed called to follow Christ’s example (1 John 2:6), but imitation follows impartation.
We can only walk as He walked after we have been born again and indwelt by His Spirit (Romans 8:9).

Christ’s example shows what righteousness looks like, but only His cross gives it to us.

Romans 5:19

“By one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.”
It is His obedience — not ours — that makes us righteous before God.
Our obedience follows because we are new creations (2 Cor. 5:17).


You say

“If Jesus fulfilled the law for us, then He would be removing His gift of salvation from us, so thankfully He did not do that.”
Answer:
This directly contradicts Scripture.
Christ had to fulfill the law for us because we could not.

Romans 8:3–4

“For what the law could not do… God did, by sending His own Son… in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
Jesus’ fulfillment doesn’t remove salvation — it secures it.
He didn’t abolish righteousness; He fulfilled it on our behalf and now produces it in us by the Spirit (Philippians 2:13).


You say:

“Only those who are following His example of walking in obedience to God’s law are in Christ.”
Answer:
Scripture says the opposite:
Only those who are in Christ by faith are capable of true obedience.

Galatians 3:2–3

“Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”
Faith unites us to Christ; that union produces obedience (John 15:5).
Obedience is the fruit of being in the vine, not the condition for being grafted into it.


You say:

“Obedience brings life and blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!”
Answer:
That was the Mosaic covenant (Deuteronomy 30).
But Paul cites that passage in Romans 10:6-8 to make the opposite point — that now Christ is the end of the law for righteousness (Romans 10:4).

In Christ, life comes not through law-keeping but through faith in the risen Lord:

Romans 10:9-10

“If you confess with your mouth ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”
The “word of faith” Paul preaches is not “obey the law,” but “believe the gospel.”

You say:

“The only way for God to make us righteous is by teaching us to do righteous works.”
Answer:
God makes us righteous by imputing Christ’s righteousness to us, not by instructing us until we achieve it.

Romans 4:5

“To the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”
After justification, He then imparts righteousness through the Spirit’s transforming work (Romans 6:17–18).
That’s sanctification, not justification.


The Biblical Order (Romans 6:22)​

“But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.”
  1. Set free from sin — salvation by grace.
  2. Become servants of God — new identity.
  3. Fruit of obedience — sanctification.
  4. End result — eternal life.
Obedience follows deliverance; it does not cause it.
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AI understands the Sabbath and Col 2:16

You would need to prove that God’s perfect plan before sin included killing innocent lambs. There is nothing that speaks of annuals feast days and annual sabbaths at Creation, you made the claim, you need to provide the Scripture.
There is nothing that speaks against murder in the garden; so how did Cain know that it was a sin?

Could it be that he learned it form Adam who walked with Yah in the garden; or that Ruach Ha'Kodesh had already written it on his heart?

Have you read Genesis 4?
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Pepper Sprayed While Evangelizing

Oh. I mentioned Acts 1:8 in the last post. This is an amazing verse, and it is even more amazing when read in the Greek and this is bound to change some people's views on evangelism.
“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”, Acts 1:8

The word power comes from the Greek dýnamis, meaning strength, force, or ability.
When we receive the Holy Spirit, we are strengthened for the task ahead. There’s a power within us that pushes, stirs, and equips us for the battle. When He fills us, silence is no longer an option; witnessing becomes the overflow of His presence within us.

The Holy Spirit here (to Pneuma to Hagion) is the same Spirit Jesus promised in John 14:16, where He’s called Paraklētos, the Helper, or in Old English, the Comforter. Not comfort in the soft sense, but comfortare; “to strengthen.” He is the One who strengthens and sends us forward into the fight.

The word witnesses is "mártys" in Greek, from which we get the word "martyr". A martyr is one who gives their life for a cause. But notice, if a martyr never spoke, there’d be no cause for death.
To be a witness means to speak, to declare, to testify.
And because of that testimony, we may face persecution, even death.
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Who then can be saved?

I did not chose God, because I hated Him and I loved my sin instead. I was totally committed and consumed with fulfilling my lust and I was in bondage to Satan, who blinded me to the truth so there was no way I would even consider serving God.

Dead people cannot chose to serve God or even believe in Him, so I boast in my Redeemer. How can a totally depraved wicked sinner, take any credit for being made alive out of his dead sate???
I choose Him everyday. He's the best thing going and I thank Him for showing me something trully, ineffably Good and worthy of my love and adoration in this otherwise god-forsaken hopeless world. Sometimes I stray, however, fool that I am, proving that I'm still capable of a compromised loyalty, distracted and drawn to lesser, created things now and then over Him; sometimes I sin, IOW, not yet perfected in the love that He gives me.
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Stranger Things

In light of the above I went to their site and poked around. There’s a piece on the black family you may find interesting. Given the cuts they’ve put through their initiatives this is the probable result they have in mind.
I agree with placing a spotlight on the role of Radical Feminism in the destruction of the black family. The "welfare state" played a minor supporting role, but black women had been receiving welfare for years while still aspiring to be wives. It was Radical Feminism (capitalized because it's a specific feminist ideology) that injected the idea that women were better off without men in their lives ("A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle."

This became widely accepted in black communities by the 80s to such obvious extent that the television networks had news specials about it. The vice-president of the US even spoke of it in a news conference in 1989. I was in DC in the latter 80s listening to young women who had good government jobs and were not on welfare saying they didn't need a man to help them raise children.
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AI understands the Sabbath and Col 2:16

Moses made the tabernacle according to the pattern God gave Him modeled in heaven Heb 8:1-4.

Can you show me from Scripture where Solomons temple was made according to a different pattern?
Moses was given very specific detailed instructions on how to build the tabernacle. Solomon's temple did no meet the detail of those specifications. It was different. Do you think that it is OK to deviate from Yah's detailed instructions. Is strange fire OK?
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

Dunn *IS* a wacko. Period.

He is also put forth as some machining expert, but has no known expertise in working stone or working with archeological objects. His actual record on archeology is nuts. He is a flat-out pseudo-archeologist with his patently false notions about Egypt's past, particularly his pyramid "theories".
Which have been verified now by other science. He is a pioneer in that sense lol. Just like other great scientists who were called whacko and were right all along.

The fact is Dunn is clearly an expert on precision tooling having worked in the industry up to the level of Aerospace precision. He knows the signatures and methods. He knows metrology.
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There’s a Giant Flaw in Human History

No, that's a fib. I have been trying to tell you about the capabilities of a strap lathe or some other lathe-like machine. You say not, you say that they must have used a real modern lathe made in Atlantis or some other imaginary place because those poor primitive Egyptians couldn't figure out how to do it themselves.
Actually I was not alluding to anything like Atlantis. If you have this in your mind then I think you are the one elevating this to conspiracy or something unreal.

I was using the same logic as yourself. You are obviously explaining the capabilities of a strap lathe or similar. That they can somehow fix the setup to be stable to to get better symmetry and circularity. Your more or less trying to build a modern style lathe but with primitive ways. Same thing.

I am not saying it must be a modern type CNC lathe. I am saying the signatures are the same as modern machining on a lathe of some sort. A lathe that has to be very stable with a stable cutter that will maintain the high tolerances.

We are actually saying the same thing. Your just trying to create a more elaborate version of the rudimentary one orthodox methods claims on the wall and in experiments. Which is the bore stick that wobbles.

The logic being the more precise and tight the tolerances are the more sophisticated the lathing. Whether that be made by some sticks, hemp rope and tar or a modern machine. They are achieving a similar result. Either way its far more advanced than what the orthody claims. Which is there was no potters wheel or lathe at all.
No it's not. That's another fib.
Does the orthodox view actually say the Naqada people had some sophisticated lathing which was very stable and fast turning like a strap lathe. I think you will find they say they did not even have the potters wheel and made pts by the coil method. They assume that they must have somehow made them. But they have never found any laths or potters wheels. Found plenty of vases though.
I have no idea for sure how they were made and neither do you. All we have is conjecture at this point and all you care to conjecture about is Atlantis.
Common sense recognises that good to excellent symmetry and circularity is achieved on a potters wheel or lathe. So its not conjecture. But it is conjecture to say that obvious signatures that point to machining and lathing are not pointing to machining and lathing.

How that was done is conjecture. I am just saying the signatures are on par with modern machining such as CNC lathing because of the tight tolerances ect. That they match modern vases.
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Why we Christians still have to struggle with sins?

Yeah...it's looks like you are stuck on Roman Christianity Doctrine and you are bringing destruction to yourself whether you understand this or not. In, (Is. 42:21) we find another prophecy concerning Christ and the law. It reads, (v.21) The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) will magnify the law, and make it honourable. When you magnify something you enlarge it and bring it out more of its detail and richness. Jesus revealed the fulfillment of this prophecy when he explained, (Mat.5:27-28) (v.27) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: (v.28) But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

By magnifying the law and making it honorable, the spiritual intent of the law is now emphasized which goes far beyond the mere the physical intent. God has raised His standards, not lowered them! All God ever wanted was what was best for us! He designed us to be His children. We are happiest when we love and obey Him. He is a God who is totally righteous and holy. God cannot sin. And He wants us to follow in His footsteps. The person that says, (1John:2:6) “that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

Jesus says in (Mat.5:17-19) (v.17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (v.18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (v.19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus came to fulfill, to fill to the full (Gk. plereo). He fulfilled many prophecies - but not all. There are many in the Book of Revelation still to be fulfilled. There is still some in the Old Testament that hasn’t been fulfilled. Jesus at His first coming came to fulfilled that which was written for Him to fulfill at His first coming. He has NOT fulfilled everything that was written for Him to do. And He kept all of the Law that he could - but that was not all! He was not a Temple priest. He was not a woman. He could not keep the laws intended only for priests and women. No matter how you think about Jesus, there is still much to be fulfilled! So not even the smallest part has yet passed from God's Law!

Jesus made it quite clear that anyone who would break even the least commandment and teach people to do so would be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. The fact is, God did not find fault with His laws but rather with the people who did not obey them. (Heb.8:7-8) (v.7) For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.(v.8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: The writer of Hebrews then proceeds to quote Jeremiah 31:31-34, quoted above. Under the New Covenant we now have a living High Priest, Jesus Christ, who can make intercession for us. One who was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. He is an intercessor who understands our weaknesses because He lived as a human being.

Claim 2: The Law cannot pass until heaven and earth pass.

Response:
Jesus did not say the Law would never pass.
He said it would not pass “until all is fulfilled.”

Matthew 5:18


“…till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
And what did Jesus do?
He fulfilled it — completely.

Luke 24:44

“All things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”
Romans 10:4

“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.”
The Law stood until its purpose was accomplished in Christ — to reveal sin and point to Him.
When the reality (Christ) came, the shadow (Law) was fulfilled (Colossians 2:16–17).

Claim 3: Jesus has not fulfilled everything, so the Law still stands.

Response: This confuses prophecy fulfillment (some yet to come) with Law fulfillment (already completed).
The Law and the Prophets are different categories — both foretold things, but the Law’s requirements were fully met in Christ’s life, death, and resurrection.

Hebrews 10:9–10

“He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
The “first” — the system of law and sacrifice — was taken away because its purpose was completed in Christ.

Claim 4: The Law wasn’t at fault, the people were — therefore the Law remains.

Response:
Hebrews 8:7–13 does say the fault was with the people, but the conclusion is that the old covenant was made obsolete and replaced with a new one.

Hebrews 8:13

“In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”
The new covenant doesn’t patch up the old system; it replaces it with a better one based on Christ’s blood (Luke 22:20).

The Law wasn’t evil — it was holy (Romans 7:12).
But it could not give life (Galatians 3:21), so God gave a new covenant where the law is written on the heart, not engraved on stone (Jeremiah 31:33; 2 Corinthians 3:3).

Claim 5: Whoever breaks even the least commandment is least in the kingdom.

Response:
This warning was given to those who thought they could enter the kingdom through law-keeping.
Jesus was contrasting self-righteousness with kingdom righteousness that comes only through Him.

Matthew 5:20

“Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
How can anyone’s righteousness exceed the Pharisees’?
Only by receiving Christ’s righteousness by faith.

Philippians 3:9

“…not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ…”
Those who teach justification by the Law are the ones breaking it, because they reject the very purpose of the Law — to drive us to Christ (Galatians 3:24–25).
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Stranger Things

He’s requiring all schools that receive federal funding to give students the military entrance test. Will that help them improve?
In basic principle, this could be a good idea. The Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery is essentially a "SAT" to measure a student's readiness for continued technical training. After 12 years of schooling, a student should be able to do well in either the ASVAB or the SAT. Students who don't intend to go to college (kids usually know that by the end of the ninth grade) should be guided into coursework that will give them success in the ASVAB. Those kids would be ready for any advanced technical training after high school graduation.

Schools would not be rated merely on how many of their students do well on the SAT, but also (or even more) on how well their students do on the ASVAB...particularly since 60%+ of students never get bachelor's degrees.
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