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Belk · 2025-12-13T14:44:05-0600

BPPLEE said:
Jesus pointed out that there would be people who claim to be his followers who are not.
He said that many would say they prophesied in his name and cast out demons in his name and he would say depart from me, I never knew you.
He also said those who love me keep my commandments.
Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing

Did he give a specific definition of Christian or name you as the arbiter? If not then this is irrelevant to the fallacy.

BCP1928 · 2025-12-13T14:43:10-0600

Always in His Presence said:
Neither political party is a turly 'religious' or Christian in nature - they are not designed to be and this is not a Christian Nation -

But it will be a cold day on the surface of the sun before I could vote for a party who supports the murder of the unborn and acceptance of perversions.

From a strictly Christian perspective.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

How someone can claim to be a Christian, yet endorse and support what is abhorrent to Him is beyond me. ou cannot serve two masters.

Because maybe some people believe that there are more important things going on, more important issues for Christians to concern themselves with than trying to regulate the sex lives of the non-Christian citizens of a secular republic.

disciple1 · 2025-12-13T14:42:54-0600

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BPPLEE · 2025-12-13T14:38:13-0600

Belk said:
It's amazing how you point out the case in which it is not a fallacy, then fall into the fallacy.

If someone says "No true pacifist can advocate for war." that would be a true statement since it is a direct contradiction. There is no definition of Christian that stays they are "someone who does not commit atrocities". That is an extra category you are adding to the definition which is what the fallacy entails. Supplementing the definition with your opinion.

Jesus pointed out that there would be people who claim to be his followers who are not.
He said that many would say they prophesied in his name and cast out demons in his name and he would say depart from me, I never knew you.
He also said those who love me keep my commandments.
Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing

Robban · 2025-12-13T14:36:33-0600

timothyu said:
Understood. But consider that the monarchy heading that church can be eliminated by democratic means through parliament, removing any edge it may have at present. And parliament can be controlled by the majority, regardless of which religion or culture they may represent. The old assumption that the founders of nations will continue to control, is out the window simply because a pre-Babel like occurrence is happening again.

Consider the US of A as an example. Over 60+ years ago there was a surge of Muslims there by way of the black movement. Yet this was not disrupting as these converts still were part of the fabric of the nation that they grew up in. They were home grown. Not so today as outside influence has brought their old ways, refusing to leave them back at home where they came from. And the system is being used by crying persecution in order to gain a foot hold. Man's systems only work when unthreatened by outside influence. We've taken a serious step backwards thanks to the utopian idea of living as one. Ain't gonna happen. Ask the American Indians. God scattered the people into nations for a reason.

I too see from that angle concerning Babel, though for the risk of being seen as insane, I keep it to myself.

But I steer clear of politics, it would be like walking into a minefield.

Abraham was the most generous person to ever walk the face of the earth, if anyone is a child of Abraham, then they will do as Abraham.

You know, the apple does not fall far from the tree.

mark46 · 2025-12-13T14:32:17-0600

Always in His Presence said:
Neither political party is a turly 'religious' or Christian in nature - they are not designed to be and this is not a Christian Nation -

But it will be a cold day on the surface of the sun before I could vote for a party who supports the murder of the unborn and acceptance of perversions.

From a strictly Christian perspective.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

How someone can claim to be a Christian, yet endorse and support what is abhorrent to Him is beyond me. ou cannot serve two masters.

Some are very concerned about the sexual conduct of others as their top priority. This has been true for many centuries.

Others look to themselves and try to best do what Jesus would have done.
================
In looking to the bible, some focus on the rules and regulations of Romans. Others focus on the Sermon on the Mount.
========
I well understand why we Christians are opposed to abortion and homosexuality. Why should this me be a person who hates the sinner?
And some have come far from the medieval and Puritan idea of loving someone by burning them at the stake.

BCP1928 · 2025-12-13T14:31:52-0600

stevevw said:
Yes but its not in this material realm. Christians believe in Heaven right. Heaven is not this fallen material world. The new earth and bodies will not be the same as our current fallen physical bodies.

If we never get sick or die then that is a completely different realm, a spirtual or transcedent realm or whatever you want to call it. But its clearly not the same. And we know it through our consciousness of God and the afterlife. We give up our physical body to gain this heavenly body.

But we will still have a body, not a conscious mind without a body.

stevevw said:
Actually to anyone who uses methological naturalism to defeat belief in God or other transcedent realities like the soul or afterlife. If they demand physical evidence and claim that this belief is false ontologically. Then yes they are declaring a belief and not science.

If you think this doesn't happen then just take a look at this forum lol. Or the old creation v evolution debate. It always comes down to "show me the physical evidence or its all false". Thus using one persons belief to beat down another persons belief.

Atheism v. theism is never the issue. Those discussions are about the Bible and creationists interpretation of it. Period. The evidence demanded is for the biblical account, not the existence of God.

stevevw said:
Its just that the materialist will always win within the parameters of objective sciences and materialism. Which is much easier to show than beliefs. Or at least using methological naturalism.

Actually I don't think a proper scientists would argue such things. They know where to draw the line. Its usually on forums like this where it becomes more philosophical that the lines get blurred.

I mean look at the OP heading "scientist believe life formed on its own" lol. Hum is belief scientific. I don't think so. So even the OP is framed philosophically. Scientist believe just like religious people believe in God. Except they believe its some how self creating and does not need a God or outside influence from an agent.

That headline was created by a biblical creationist. It's a misrepresentation of science not written by a scientist. It is not what scientists believe.

stevevw said:
IMO I don't think we can seperate the scientist from the metaphysics. Because the subject and observer is part of the equation. You canpt take them out no matter what.

Science was designed to be a 3rd party method. Seperate the scientist from the phenomena being observed. But I don't think thats possible on a number of levels. So metaphysical beliefs come into the equation and its hard to untangle them. Or even know whether they are influeeencing things.

This is evident in the fact that even within the sciences there are different paradigms. Where one domain sees physical consitioning and processes. The other sees mind and agency as the fundemental driver. Nevermind the completely different paradigm worlds of spiritual/transcedent and materialism and determinism lol.

I have no idea what you are talking about. It makes no sense either from a theological or a scientific point of view.

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-13T14:29:41-0600

mark46 · 2025-12-13T14:26:24-0600

Always in His Presence said:
Neither political party is a turly 'religious' or Christian in nature - they are not designed to be and this is not a Christian Nation -

Agreed.

We are to look to the teachings and actions of Jesus and decide how best to help the weakest among us:

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-13T14:21:26-0600

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

:doh:

rjs330 · 2025-12-13T14:20:16-0600

BCP1928 said:
How so? Or is that a right you reserve to yourself?

If you pay attention to my posts I really don't do that. I will respond if someone else starts the conversation, but I don't use it myself as a starter. I have said many many timea that we shouldn't use scripture as a political document for our personal political belief on how government has to be run or what laws should be made. The reason for that is because we have a tendency only to want to use part of scripture for political reasons and reject other scriptures for the same reason.

We should either accept all of scripture as the guide or none of it.

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-13T14:14:53-0600

15“We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in d Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

17“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

19“For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

timothyu · 2025-12-13T14:06:02-0600

RamiC said:
As I have pointed out already, Christianity is now a minority thing here, and while it is not up to much at the present time, we have an established church in the UK. We never did the "separation of powers". Sharia courts are not taking over, they have always been legal, but are not legally binding.

Understood. But consider that the monarchy heading that church can be eliminated by democratic means through parliament, removing any edge it may have at present. And parliament can be controlled by the majority, regardless of which religion or culture they may represent. The old assumption that the founders of nations will continue to control, is out the window simply because a pre-Babel like occurrence is happening again.

Consider the US of A as an example. Over 60+ years ago there was a surge of Muslims there by way of the black movement. Yet this was not disrupting as these converts still were part of the fabric of the nation that they grew up in. They were home grown. Not so today as outside influence has brought their old ways, refusing to leave them back at home where they came from. And the system is being used by crying persecution in order to gain a foot hold. Man's systems only work when unthreatened by outside influence. We've taken a serious step backwards thanks to the utopian idea of living as one. Ain't gonna happen. Ask the American Indians. God scattered the people into nations for a reason.

Belk · 2025-12-13T14:05:51-0600

Factotum said:
This was all strategic by the Trump DOJ, in order to beat the statute of limitations deadline on charging Comey. Kalligan beat it by 36 hours I heard.
Now that Kalligan is disqualified, the Court gives them several weeks to replace her and reinstate the charges.

It was very clever, by Bondi.

Yes, that must be why all those professional lawyers are praising this 300d chess move by the Trump DOJ instead of pointing out how it is the result of extreme incompetence.

/s

PloverWing · 2025-12-13T14:04:05-0600

And now, for your enjoyment, an xkcd cartoon:

Certainty

xkcd.com

PloverWing · 2025-12-13T14:01:23-0600

All of us use all three of these -- plus other things like intuition and habit and so forth -- to get through our days. But deductive reasoning is my first love.

Admittedly, formal deductive reasoning isn't available for many ordinary life choices; there's too much uncertainty and too many gaps in our information. But I spend much of my days teaching symbolic logic and logic programming and theory of computing, so I do get to use deductive reasoning in my daily life. In some ways, mathematics feels more real to me than the physical world.

Shane R · 2025-12-13T14:00:25-0600

There's a lovely snow coming down right now.

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-13T14:00:00-0600

And the chief captain answered, With a great sum obtained I this freedom. And Paul said, But I was free born.

camille70 · 2025-12-13T13:56:51-0600

stevevw said:
Magadonian, thats a new one lol.

This whole project 25 is just one of a number of false narratives that have been put out there. Also some of the ideas are quite commonsense. I don't know what all the conflation is about like its some sort of theocracy lol.

But the whole Project 25 has been busted as a myth and c onspiracy anyway.

There has been this false narrative about Trump for a decade now. He has never become the dictator the false narratives have claimed. Its all hyperbole and designed to create this us verse them politics. The big scarry monster who is going to take away our freedoms.

When in fact it was the otherway around from what they are finding with all the Lawfare, fraud and controlling of media and targeting conservatives and Christians. Gaslighting everyone over Biden and bypassing the democratic process in selection Harris ect. I mean they put forward Waltz which shows something was wrong with their selection or oversight.

I don't trust either as far as Christian belief and values. Luckily I don't have to vote in the US. But we do in Australia and we have a similar divide between Left and Right. If I have to vote out of two bad candidates I will tend to vote conservative as its closest to my beliefs. I cannot side with a party that supports abortion or other progressive ideas.

Otherwise I try and vote locally for a member who is closest to my beliefs. I actually did not vote for around 10 years. Then they found me lol.

Nah, I would say the same for anyone who uses such language. If you noticed I mentioned it was from the same school of thought as Critical Race theory and DEI. I know the language and its divisive and hateful. You may not recognise it.

But when people talk about white supremacy and bring up race in just about every answer. I know its identity politics. Pointing that out is not IP. Its highlighting it as obviously some don't see it as well until its identified.

I have not issues with immigrants, we are all immigrants to some extent. I trace back to African American slaves. I guess thats why I have an interest in US politics. But its similar to my nation generally. We are only 250 years young lol. We have had waves of immigrants to make our nation. But we also know that some who come don't like our western nations way of life and bring their own problems.

But its also the administration of integrating immigrants into the host culture rather than creating divisions. I see the whole immigration, illegal immigration and lack of integration as mess. Its associated with a lot of bad stuff that has cost a lot of people. The real culprits are those in charge who orchestrated this. Because it did not happen by accident. This was poor policiy and management.

Thats the true crime and moral wrong. That leaders who were suppose to do the right thing and set the example and look after the needy. Abused their position and allowed this to get to such a point that it costs so much financially and in human suffering.

For it to be a conspiracy, the number of items the Trump administration has completed is amazing.

https://www.project2025.observer/en

People (sometimes) successfully fighting back against his dictator tendencies and actions to keep the balance of power and our government in check doesn't mean he's not trying to assume power not typically bestowed upon American presidents.

The democratic process was not bypassed to promote Harris. The DNC followed their policies to elect someone at the last minute. The DNC electors had people who submitted their intent to run with the required signatures and they were voted on. Not everyone voted for Harris via a virtual roll call. She was also not the only one with delegates, but the others did not have enough to win.

People were expecting a 50 state primary all over again. That's not what happens. There was also not time for it as deadlines had passed in all the states and my state of Ohio was threatening not to have the dem candidate on the ballot at all if not submitted by a certain date. They were unwilling to provide exceptions granted to candidates in the past, including GOP candidates.

See Adoption of early virtual nomination vote here.

2024 Democratic National Convention - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The GOP would have had to do something similar had they lost their nominee at the last minute.

People do not need to abandon their entire culture to assimilate. The cultures of other melding into what is America is what makes us rich as a nation. No one is asking Jews to abandon their ceremonies. We have little Chinatowns all over this country. Little Cubas. Little Italies. Mormons. Amish. Native Americans. People who keep traditions alive. We are all the better for it.

bbbbbbb · 2025-12-13T13:54:36-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
Prove this with evidence, not with just because you say so. Accusations without evidence are just empty words. And we are held accountable for every accusation we make against another that is false.

What activities on the Sabbath did she promote that is in violation of what God said we should do on the Sabbath.

Quote her saying as such and than quote the Bible where it says its against. If you can’t I would consider recanting and personally I would repent.

Actually "Sabbath" means rest. The Sabbath was given by God to His people as a day of complete rest. Other than resting, all else is extraneous, although perhaps of some good merit, including work that Jesus did on the Sabbath.

Mrs. White, as did the Pharisees, added to the Sabbath. The Pharisees were utterly circumspect in honoring the Sabbath. In Mrs. White's case it was with nineteenth-century American Protestant religious activities which are found nowhere in the Bible. It is just the same principle that Roman Catholics have in their form of mass, even as it now is popularly attended on Saturdays.

Do you have any particular objections to RCC Saturday masses?

jonojim1337 · 2025-12-13T13:53:32-0600

8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, e just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Belk · 2025-12-13T13:46:07-0600

BPPLEE said:
They love to use it when some atrocious acts are committed by someone claiming to be a Christian and you point out that no real Christian would behave that way. It's not a fallacy it's just the truth

It's amazing how you point out the case in which it is not a fallacy, then fall into the fallacy.

If someone says "No true pacifist can advocate for war." that would be a true statement since it is a direct contradiction. There is no definition of Christian that stays they are "someone who does not commit atrocities". That is an extra category you are adding to the definition which is what the fallacy entails. Supplementing the definition with your opinion.

durangodawood · 2025-12-13T13:45:56-0600

ThatRobGuy said:
And Canada evidently

Adam: A new home for the prime minister is closer than ever — or so the NCC says

That a replacement for 24 Sussex Drive has become so controversial is, regrettably, a testament to our small-mindedness.

ottawacitizen.com

...the article says that not having some fancy digs for a Prime Minister is a "National Embarrassment"

Not seeing any proposal there I could make a judgement about.

durangodawood · 2025-12-13T13:42:51-0600

M

ThatRobGuy said:
The examples I provided earlier were from Britain, Germany, France, and Japan.

But I'm pretty sure they are others.

Edit
In looking a little more it looks like a lot of South American countries have head of state residences that not only have formal event spaces & ballrooms, but have overall building's that are much more ornate in general.

Peru

Government Palace, Peru - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ecuador
Palacio de Carondelet - Wikipedia

Back to Europe, there's Portugal

Belém Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Belgium

The Royal Palace of Brussels | Unofficial Royalty

The Norwegian Royal Palace in Norway (as multiple from the looks of it)

The reception rooms at the Royal Palace

The reception rooms at the Royal Palace in Oslo reflect the various interior styles that were fashionable during the 25 years it took to build the Palace.

www.royalcourt.no

Austria has quite the "fancy digs"

Hofburg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As does Denmark:

Christiansborg Palace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Most of those and similar from the other posts were erected by monarchs or governments still swayed by the trappings of monarchy.

By contrast, America was conceived in explicit opposition to monarchic ideology, and I think the original design of the White House reflects that. Its not a log cabin. But it really is quite modest compared to all these other palaces - for important symbolic reasons.

So, I think its a big mistake to overshadow the White House with some huge gaudy hastily designed pile that hearkens back to ideology we (used to) reject.

That said, I do appreciate the need for a proper event space rather than these absurd tents. Just do it right as part of "the peoples house". Dont let it be a monument to one man's inflated ego.

orbiter · 2025-12-13T13:39:44-0600

Peace in Christ.

The light shines in our hearts when we hear the voice of the Son of God as He comes to give us an understanding. This is the sign of the Son of man in heaven…in those who have their citizenship in heaven now in this earth. This light within us is the witness of God about His Son whom we are to hear.

He opens up the Scripture of Truth to our hearing ears and we are to take heed on how we hear His correct interpretation of it.

We shall know that this is His beloved Son (whom we are to HEAR) by the light that shines in a dark place…in our hearts. This is the witness of God shining within our very own hearts of His Son whom we hear speaking to us.

2Pe 1:17-20 KJV
(17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
(19) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The private interpretation of the “word of men” ..of men who are not preaching with the Spirit of Truth… does not have this effect upon our hearts.

(20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The witness of God about His Son speaking to us is WITHIN US. He that believes on the Son of God (who comes to give us an understanding) has the witness of God within our very hearts.

1Jn 5:9-11 KJV
(9) If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
(10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
(11) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

We are to believe in that light shining in our hearts so that we may be children of light in this dark world. We are to put away the works of darkness (wrath, envy, strife, contentions) and receive His words….the Word of Truth…the true sayings of God… in belief.

Joh 12:35-37 KJV
(35) Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
(36) While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
(37) But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

He begets us with the Word of Truth (in contrast to the word of men who preach the Scriptures in their own private interpretations of it).

We are to be swift to hear and slow to speak and slow to wrath towards the hearing of the Word of Truth. The wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.

Jas 1:18-20 KJV
(18) Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
(19) Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
(20) For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

He calls us unto His kingdom and glory...and we are to walk worthy of God. We are to receive the Word of God (with good works) spoken in truth…the true sayings of God…as compared to the word of men whose private interpretations of the Scriptures is in error of the Truth. By the receiving of His Word of Truth, we are to enter into His kingdom and display His glory to this dark world.

1Th 2:12-14 KJV
(12) That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
(13) For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Our own “countrymen”…our own man-based church families…will persecute those who will believe in the true sayings of God in their unbelief of what they will hear Him saying. They will behave badly towards what they hear and towards those who will believe in it. We are to be faithful to His death ...keeping the daily sacrifice of the Lamb...when we are persecuted by them.

(14) For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

The truth is in Jesus. He is the source of it. We are to hear His voice as He teaches us….who opens up the Scripture of Truth to our hearing ears. His interpretation of the Scriptures will not align with what the word of men have been preaching in their ignorance of the Truth.

Eph 4:21-28 KJV
(21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

We must put off the former behavior of the old man which is decayed according to the deceitful lusts.

The “old man” …the old church man…wants to behave in contention towards what he hears. The old man wants to speak evil in unbelief of what he hears. The old man church man gets angry about what he hears and wants to speak a multitude of words against it. We must overcome this. If a man seems religious and does not bridle his tongue, then that man's religion is empty. James 1: 26 .

(22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

We must overcome this and be renewed in the spirit of our minds towards what we hear.

(23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
(24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
(25) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

The good news is NOW reported unto us via the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven. The "angels" that desire to look into these things = the prophets who did write the things found in the Scriptures for us today. Their words are for us today. Unto us did they minister the things which we hear now.

1Pe 1:12-16 KJV
(12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

We are to hear His disclosure…the revelation of Jesus Christ …who speaks to us from Heaven. We are to gird up the loins of our mind and be sober (and not be found drunk on the wine of wrath) towards what we hear Him saying to us from Heaven as He speaks to us the Word of Truth.

(13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

We are to be “obedient”…that is, HEARING ATTENTIVELY (Greek: hupakoē - to hear attentively, to hear under in submission to it)…children.

When we hear His Word of Truth, we are not to conform to our old church selves that fought with one another over our denominations', erroneous teachings. We did these things before in our ignorance of the Word of Truth. When we hear His voice today speaking the Word of Truth, we are to be found by Him holy as He is holy.

(14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
(15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
(16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

If we are angry at what we hear (the Word of Truth), sin not.

Do not let the wrath within us produce evil words to come out of our mouths towards what we hear.

Do not let the sun…the light…go down (to set fully) upon our wrath. We must overcome our wrath and do well towards what we hear Him saying to us. Don’t give place (in our mouths) to the devil who will use our wrath to speak evil towards what we hear. We give place to the devil when we use our mouths to speak evil words towards what we hear.

(26) Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
(27) Neither give place to the devil.

Let him that stole steal no more. This is talking to our pastors. Let them work with their own hands that which is good (to work with their own hands to support their own earthly necessities). In doing this, they can then give to them that need….that is, to feed the flock of God with the Word of Truth. This statement will indeed induce wrath with those pastors (who are not working with their own hands to support their own earthly needs) who will hear this. Do not give place to the devil.

(28) Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

If we are angry like Cain…who was “very wroth”…and his face fell, we must overcome the sin that lies at the “door” of our mouths. We are tempted to speak out in our wrath. If we do well, shall we not be accepted…lifted up?

Gen 4:5-7 KJV
(5) But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
(6) And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

We must overcome the temptation to open up our mouths and speak evil. Don’t go in the way of Cain.

(7) If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain was a tiller…a worker of…the “ground”…that is, the ADAMAH which is the people of the outside world.

He represents the pastors (men of the Lord..."I have gotten a man from the Lord." Genesis 4:1 ) who are only “serving” for their own belly. They serve for their earthly things just as the people of the outside world (tillers of the “Adamah”) who only work for their earthly things (what to eat, what to drink, what to wear). The outside nations run after these things. Matthew 6:32 . They are “tillers” of the Adamah.

Gen 4:2-3
(2) And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground (ADAMAH).
(3) And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground (ADAMAH) an offering unto the LORD.

Abel was a keeper of sheep. Paul showed the overseers of the sheep all things on how to feed the flock of God…to be a keeper of His sheep: to work with our own hands to support our own earthly necessities. We must be "keepers of the sheep" in this way. We can then feed the flock of which we oversee.

Act 20:27-28 KJV
(27) For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
(28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

He has shown the overseers of the flock of God’s sheep all things: how that laboring with our own hands to support our own earthly necessities we can then feed the sheep the Word of Truth. We must be with him in this.

Act 20:33-35 KJV
(33) I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.
(34) Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.
(35) I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

The original apostles have made themselves an example to follow. They worked with their own hands to support their own earthly necessities. They worked night and day instead of eating any man’s bread for nothing.

2Th 3:7-10 KJV
(7) For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
(8) Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
(9) Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

In fact, is a commandment now for us today: to work with our own hands for our own bread…earthly necessities.

(10) For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

They...the original apostles of Christ... did bind us now with this commandment that after them we should follow them in this thing. They did bind on earth this earthly pursuit of earthly necessities and now it is bound in heaven…in us who have our citizenship in heaven now in this earth.

Mat 16:19 KJV
(19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

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