• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A couple questions about the Septuagint

My $64 dollar question is about the Masoretic texts. They were retranslated by Judaic Jews in the 8th and 9th century AD if memory serves.

They were already in Hebrew, so there were inherently no retranslations.

What the Masoretes did, as far as I understand, was two things:
1) Make an effort to better standardize the text
2) Add vowel pointers

I should explain the issue of vowel pointers. Originally, Hebrew wasn't written with vowels, just consonants. You just knew the pronunciations based on oral communication and context. Thus, nothing in the Bible ever had vowel pointers when it was written. Later on--in the second half of the first millennium AD--a system of vowel pointers was created, which were little symbols you would put around the letters to show what the vowel pronunciations were supposed to be. The Masoretic Text includes those, and they became a feature of the Hebrew language going forward, though a lot of time they're left off in Modern Hebrew.

The vowel pointers, beyond being a pronunciation aid, can also differentiate words. Much like the word "wound" in English, which has two separate pronunciations with very different meanings (compare "I have a wound from my injury" to "the clock is wound up", where the word has a different meaning and pronunciation in each sentence), you can have words with the same letters, but different vowels, giving you different words.

One of the goals, as I remember hearing, was to shift translation away from interpretations that Christ fulfilled ancient prophecies, changing in places “virgin” to “young woman” where the vowel markers permitted.

I assume you are referring to Isaiah 7:14. The question of whether it should be translated as "young woman" or "virgin" is a debated point, but the question has nothing to do with the vowel pointers nor even the letters themselves. While some words change meaning if they have different vowel pointers, as noted above, this does not seem to be one of them. So while there are some cases where someone could try to argue they made an error with the vowels and they should have put in different vowels to give the word a different meaning, this isn't one of them.

It is also not a case of them changing the word itself in the creation of the Masoretic Text, because the Dead Sea Scrolls, done prior to Christianity, have the same Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14. (I confirmed this with the useful book "The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible", which gives a translation of the text of the Bible as can be reassembled from the Dead Sea Scrolls, including notes of differences with the Masoretic Text, and there is no mention of this word being different).

So there really isn't any controversy over what the original Hebrew word was. The controversy is over the appropriate translation of it. But that doesn't have anything to do with any change in the text itself.

Have any issues ever been raised over the canonicity from the Orthodox perspective of the Masoretic texts, translated by people who denied our Faith?
Well, as noted, they weren't translated, as they were already in Hebrew. Well, as noted, they didn't translate anything. The works were already in Hebrew. The question is whether the readings they kept were the accurate ones.

Can't really comment on the Orthodox perspective, but I know I have seen some Christians express dubiousness over the Masoretic Text for this reason, namely it being maintained by people who rejected Christianity. The Dead Sea Scrolls do predate Christianity (and thus any rejection), but due to the fragmentary nature of the DSS, there's a whole lot of verses in the Old Testament that aren't available in them to check.
  • Like
Reactions: gzt
Upvote 0

Please help to ignite the Great Re-Awakening in Europe

A hearty fellow welcome from our little neck of the woods Wendy. Or καλώς ήρθατε (kalos irthate) as we like to say in Greek. We're operating mostly out of the Greece missions and the broader Balkans and eastern Mediterranean with a lot of recruiting back in the states and all over. And raising our 3 kids as fully Greek themselves, just as like it sounds like you're planning with your family in Germany. In fact we have a little Iowa connection ourselves, a little neighborhood church back in Davenport where one of us drew early inspiration. But anyway I'm sure I speak for other's here and around to welcome you and we're glad to have you on board.
Upvote 0

Is The king James version losing influence?

I have downloaded two free bibles to my iPhone. Both are KJV. My guess is because the copywrite is expired?
Yes, virtually all KJV editions available today don't use the original text from 1611, but the revised text from 1769 (by Benjamin Blayney in Oxford). Those copyrights are long gone ...
Upvote 0

Allentown Green Card Holder Disappeared by ICE to Guatemala

This is not good. It sounds like ICE screwed up here. I'll be honest, im frustrated at this one. It seems that some investigation by ICE would have uncovered everything.

Im sure the guy told them who he was and why he was there. A little investigation would have cleared this up.
I still support ICE and their enforcement actions. But I want ILLEGALS deported. And it appears that this guy was a legal and did NOT have his Visa canceled.
They knew who he was and what he was doing and were waiting for him
Upvote 0

Church discipline no longer practiced in most Protestant churches: Survey

Should shaming always be done in cases of church discpline?
no.
Should public still shaming happen even if the person has done exactly what Mat 18:15 or Mat 18:16 lays out?
No. As soon as the person repents, that is the end of it . . . except we pray for the person, maybe talk with the person about how the person is doing. Likely the person can still fail again, however, and will need encouragement.

And when the Corinthian man repented, it seems, Paul called for an end to the shaming.
Should it always go to Mat 18:17 regardless?
nope.
Is it always a perfectly ran process implemented and oversaw by perfect people with perfect results without any danger of doing more harm than good? IF the answer is no, then perhaps could it be said that NOT jumping straight into it would be wise?
You should have proven people who know what they are doing.
What should be done if it is handled badly as in the case of my example or in the article I linked?
You make sure you pray for the wrong people. Do not blame them for however you might have gotten hurt and then kept suffering on and on and on > I mean, do not allow wrong people to have power over you to decide how you do. If/when we fail in this, trust God to remove all the bad stuff which is tormenting us >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment." (in 1 John 4:18)

As soon as you see how shamers themselves are wrong, be wise to that, right away. And trust God to take care of you the right way. It is not wise to let wrong people decide how we are and how much we suffer.

"'And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses.'" (Mark 11:25)

Get with God, about it, and pray until you are clear with God Himself. Then find people who are for real. And tell them how you were wrong, and see however they are able to help you do better.
From what I've seen, if shaming is used without proper care it becomes twisted into a club used to harm rather than a tool for repentance and restoration.
And yet . . . such people do not represent how Jesus has His real leaders handle things; so in case you while sinning got with the wrong people . . . get right with God and get with the right people.

Depend on God to do real correction in you, and how He is able to get rid of the various anti-love things of anger and hurts and unforgiveness. And discover how He has you become able to love and forgive as family in Jesus >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

If ones where you are do not help to minister you into this, find people who do help you to get real correction and to find out how to love. But do have hope for those who have not been right > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).
Upvote 0

House Passes Trump-Backed Rescissions Package Slashing $9 BILLION in Bloated Spending — FOREIGN AID, NPR, and PBS on the Chopping Block — Two Republic

True, but even the bible has some tough love. 2 Thessalonians 3:10 states, "If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat." But of course few study the unintended consequences where the government themselves stands in the way of these people working. Most don't know in the USA either that many of the needy are either disabled, elderly or children that are receiving the aid. I am not against work requirements or other qualifiers to aid for those that are able, but yes, some compassion is needed.

There used to be the idea of conservative compassion in the USA. President George W. Bush on Compassionate Conservatism | George W. Bush Presidential Center Trump seems to have thrown much of that out so my guess is that he will fare well for the moment to possible crash the USA from dizzying heights. Unfortunately, the rest of the world will likely suffer too if that is God's will.
The thing to remember is that 2 Thessalonians 3:10 was addressed to people who were largely self-employed, as small farmers and craftsment. In that situation, one's sustenance was indeed proportional to how much labor one was willing to engage in. To apply it to the industrial model of employment in use today as an argument against safety nets is a degenerate corruption of Scripture.
Upvote 0

Barack Obama suggests men need gay friends to learn 'empathy and kindness'

I didn't say that. That's between them and God.
All sin is between men and God. If they do not repent of that sin, they cannot take communion. You saying you don't know seem to consider homosexuality as something that does not need repentance for.
  • Agree
Reactions: Michie
Upvote 0

Is The king James version losing influence?

Actually in the USA, the KJV is widely available and easily affordable as it is sold in Dollar Tree stores. It is available in both Testaments and New Testament editions.


Upvote 0

Believers being bullied by other brothers and sisters in Christ.

When I was in high school people called that “having too much drama” in church. People sometimes forget as they grow up and become more fully well read in Bible topics from within traditional or grammar and logic based philosophy that Jesus Christ as the victim of a corrupt government occupied by usurpers.

The archetypal fads in psychology and popular culture encouraged people to build on family and camp out charades role plays, and some kiddos just grow up to be less Christian teens and adults.
Upvote 0

A couple questions about the Septuagint

t's a question of fact, we can look it up!

Unfortunately I don’t have any of the revised liturgical materials being used by the ROCOR WRV, which has sought to revert the Western Rite to how it was before 1054, but I do have two service books used in different regions by the Antiochian Western Rite Vicarate, St. Andrew’s Prayer Book and St. Colgan’s Prayer Book. However, last night I was not feeling well enough to track them down.

There’s an Antiochian WRV church not terribly far from where I live that I hope to visit, since i share the positive view of St. John Maximovitch towards the Western Rite, although I prefer the Byzantine Rite.
Upvote 0

Puzzling comment from brother

About 8 years ago,my brother broke off our relationship. His reason was that, at the time, I was struggling and in great despair and had stopped going to church.
One possibility is a person can't handle hearing about stuff that is hard for you. It can be hard for that person, too.

So, trust Jesus to do what He desires with you.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Jesus is almighty to be able to get rid of stuff which would get you into despair. And He can change us so we are like Him and loving like Him. This is what God does. God is powerful enough and spiritual enough.
Upvote 0

Filter

Forum statistics

Threads
5,871,907
Messages
65,308,652
Members
275,975
Latest member
thomasw60