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Epstein-Barr


This introduces some new wrinkles pertaining to whether or not all of the details line up with what Barr's official report listed.
Everything Epstein when it comes to giving him breaks and looking the other way, always comes up GOP.
It was GOP U.S. attorney for Southern District of Florida Alex Acosta who illegally came to a sweetheart deal with Epstein without the knowledge of Epstein's victims. That Alex Acosta later became Trump's Labor Secretary.
One would think the then Florida AG would be interested in the sex trafficking and pedophile actions of Epstein taking place in their state, but no. Who was that Florida AG? That's right, Pam Bondi. She later went on to become the Trump's Attorney General.
What's the MAGA hat conspiracy come pedophiles? It's rampant among the elite and the elite are protecting them.
Weird.
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It is permissive for Christians to eat meat today

Your source indicated that the early church fathers provide evidence of the fish being added, because Irenaeus, Eusebius and Arnobius don't mention the fish. And it indicates this was because they were not yet inserted into the Greek manuscripts.

Here are the dates for those authors:

Irenaeus 125-202
Eusebius of Caesarea 260-339
Arnobius died 330

Once again, it would be helpful if sources were given for these statements.

In the case of Irenaeus I was able to find one reference, and it is quite clear why he mentions the loaves, but not the fish.

It is from Against Heresies, book II, Chapter XXIV.—Folly of the arguments derived by the heretics from numbers, letters, and syllables.
The reason it doesn't mention to the 2 fishes is because he is making a point about their false understandings based on numbers, in this case the 5 loaves.


4. But that this point is true, that that number which is called five, which agrees in no respect with their argument, and does not harmonize with their system, nor is suitable for a typical manifestation of the things in the Pleroma, [yet has a wide prevalence,] will be proved as follows from the Scriptures. Soter is a name of
five letters; Pater, too, contains five letters; Agape (love), too, consists of five letters; and our Lord, after3173 blessing the five loaves, fed with them five thousand men. Five virgins were called wise by the Lord; and, in like manner, five were styled foolish. Again, five men are said to have been with the Lord when He obtained testimony from the Father,—namely, Peter, and James, and John, and Moses, and Elias.


I found what I think is the reference in Arnobius where he makes brief mention, and
I agree Arnobius doesn't reference the fish. But to say that by his time fish was not in Greek manuscripts does not follow, as we have church fathers from earlier times quoting such.

Arnobius
Against the Heathen
46. Was He one of us, I say, who by one act of intervention at once healed a hundred or more afflicted with various infirmities and diseases; at whose word only the raging and maddened seas were still, the whirlwinds and tempests were lulled; who walked over the deepest pools with unwet foot; who trod the ridges of the deep, the very waves being astonished, and nature coining under bondage; who with live loaves satisfied five thousand of His followers: and who, lest it might appear to the unbelieving and bard of heart to be an illusion, filled twelve capacious baskets with the fragments that remained?



Here are various church fathers who do reference fish in feeding the multitudes, or eaten with honeycomb, or as a good gift, etc. some at quite early dates.


Ignatius Died around 108
To the Philippians

And how can He be but God, who raises up the dead, sends away the lame sound of limb, cleanses the lepers, restores sight to the blind, and either increases or transmutes existing substances, as the five loaves and the two fishes, and the water which became wine, and who puts to flight thy whole host by a mere word?


Justin Martyr 100-165
On the Resurrection

And when they were by every kind of proof persuaded that it was Himself, and in the body, they asked Him to eat with them, that they might thus still more accurately ascertain that He had in verity risen bodily; and He ate honey-comb and fish.



Origen 185-253
Commentary on Matthew

It must be observed, however, that while in Matthew, Mark, and Luke,5349 the disciples say that they have the five loaves and the two fishes, without indicating whether they were wheaten or of barley, John alone says, that the loaves were barley loaves.




Cyprian 210-258
To Antonianus About Cornelius and Novatian.

23. The Lord also in His Gospel, setting forth the love of God the Father, says, “What man is there of you, whom, if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give good things to them that ask Him?”2494 The Lord is here comparing the father after the flesh, and the eternal and liberal love of God the Father.



Lactantius 250-325
The Divine Institutes

And when He had tarried there three days, and the people were suffering from hunger, He called His disciples, and asked what quantity of food672 they had with them. But they said that they had five loaves and two fishes in a wallet. Then He commanded that these should be brought forward, and that the multitude, distributed by fifties, should recline on the ground. When the disciples did this, He Himself broke the bread in pieces, and divided the flesh of the fishes, and in His hands both of them were increased.


Augustine 354-430
Sermon on the Mount, Harmony of the Gospels, Homilies on the Gospels

For after saying, “There is a lad here which hath five barley loaves and two fishes,” he likewise subjoined, “But what are they among so many?” And this last clause really means the same as the expression in question, namely, “except we should go and buy meat for all this people.”



Constitutions of the Holy Apostles 375-380

He that made Aaron’s dry rod put forth buds,3027 will raise us up in glory; He that raised Him up that had the palsy whole,3028 and healed him that had the withered hand,3029 He that supplied a defective part to him that was born blind from clay and spittle,3030 will raise us up; He that satisfied five thousand men with five loaves and two fishes, and caused a remainder of twelve baskets,3031 and out of water made wine,3032 and sent a piece of money out of a fish’s mouth3033 by me Peter to those that demanded tribute, will raise the dead.





John Chrysostom 347-407
Homily XLIX.Matt. XIV. 13.

But John saith also, that they were “barley loaves,”1928not mentioning it without object, but teaching us to trample under foot the pride of costly living. Such was the diet of the prophets also.1929

2. “He took therefore the five loaves, and the two fishes, and commanded the multitude,” it is said, “to sit down upon the grass, and looking up to Heaven, He blessed, and brake, and gave to His disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.1930 And they did all eat and were filled, and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.”

My whole point is the will of God. Your position is that God changes. My position is that God never changed. God permits things while they are not God's will.

I could only trust you to have a really good look at the site I gave for information.

The Gospels of the Hebrews and Ebionites describe a vegetarian ethos: a vegetarian Jesus and vegetarian Apostles, a John the Baptist who ate carob (locust beans), and a rejection of ritual animal sacrifice.

Keith Akers points out the existence of different versions of the biblical story — the Feeding of the 5,000 or the Multitude:


“If you look at other accounts of the same incident… If you look, for example, at the Early Church Fathers, who also talk about these stories, Irenaeus mentions the feeding of the 5,000. Eusebius also mentions that, and Arnobius, another early church writer also discusses Jesus’ feeding of the multitude, the miraculous feeding of the multitude.


“And in every case they discuss the bread but they don’t mention anything about fish. So I think that fish is a later addition. In fact, if you even look at the New Testament, it says, at another point, when Jesus is talking about the feeding of the five thousand, he says, ‘Don’t you remember when I fed the multitudes and all the bread that we took up?’ And he doesn’t mention the fish.” (Keith Akers, see, Fish Stories in the New Testament.
Also see: The Lost Religion of Jesus: Simple Living and Nonviolence in Early Christianity, pages 126–129), on fish as a later addition.


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Evidence That Jesus and The Original Aramaic Christians Were Vegetarians, By James Bean (Expanded, Updated)

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“As long as Man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings, he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love.” (Pythagoras)
“Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” (Albert Einstein)
“Be on guard, so that your hearts do not become heavy with the eating of flesh and with the intoxication of wine and with the anxiety of the world, and that day come upon you suddenly; for as a snare it will come upon all who dwell upon the surface of the earth.” (Jesus, Luke 21:34, Evangelion Da-Mepharreshe — Old Syriac-Aramaic Manuscript of the New Testament Gospels)
“Go and find out what is meant by the scripture that says: ‘It is kindness that I want, not animal sacrifices.’” (Jesus, Gospel of Matthew 9:13, Good News translation)
The carnistic premise or bias of Western church tradition about eating meat is solely based upon European dietary customs without any awareness of the vegetarian ethics of the original Jesus movement and antecedents of the Hebrew Christians such as the Prophets, Essenes, Therapeutae, also the Nasoraean John the Baptist movement. As part of their apologetics some press into service a few often-repeated verses in order to reinforce their already established preference for eating meat.
It is said, “That which enters into the mouth doesn’t defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” That’s Matthew 15:11, which is often used by some as a thought-canceling verse to shut down the conversation about vegetarianism and Christianity. But if we closely examine the earliest sections of the New Testament, the honest observer will notice that for many in early Christianity vegetarian ethics did matter greatly, that the apostle Paul was having some serious disputes with others in the early church over diet, and about eating meat that had been sacrificed to idols in pagan temples.
And we will discover a Jesus movement that was not only adhering to a vegetarian diet as part of its ethical code referred to as “the Yoke of the Lord” (in the Didache, the Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations), they were also opposed to ritual animal sacrifice in the temple of Jerusalem.
How can this be, if diet didn’t matter, we encounter voices even within what can be thought of as mainstream Christianity saying things like this? “The consumption of animal flesh was unknown up until the great flood. But since the great flood, we have had animal flesh stuffed into our mouths. Jesus, the Christ, who appeared when the time was fulfilled, again joined the end to the beginning, so that we are now no longer allowed to eat animal flesh.” (Saint Jerome, translator of the Latin Vulgate Bible)
Below you will find vegetarian sayings of Jesus from many sources — canonical and extra-canonical — along with a collection of passages revealing that the Apostles of the Jesus Movement were also vegetarians, following in the footsteps of their spiritual Master. In addition, I include examples of pro-veg passages from some early church fathers and many other writings too.
This article is intended to serve as a major resource on the web for many seeking greater access to the vegetarian passages from early Christianity and related spiritual movements of antiquity, along with references from various scholars exploring the evidence for a vegetarian Jesus at the beginning of Christianity!
For those not acquainted with Judeo-Christian history and the various collections of writings or scriptures from the early centuries A.D., at first glance, or at least on the surface, it appears that Jesus ate fish and John the Baptist dined on insects. Certainly European oriented Christianity enjoys portraying it that way. The uninformed Sunday school notion of the disciples of Jesus forever remaining fisherman lives on in the minds of many.
When it comes to vegetarianism and Christianity the first question people always ask is: “In the scriptures aren’t there passages describing Jesus as serving fish on a couple of occasions, as well as eating lamb during the Jewish holiday known as Passover?” They have inherited the belief that Jesus was a meat-eating-Messiah. Some might also cite a verse about John the Baptist eating insects (locusts).
Dueling Gospel Traditions — Pro-Meat and Pro-Veg
There are two traditions within Buddhism: pro-meat and pro-vegetarian. Each have their own sutras or scriptures serving as proof-texts.
The same is historically true with Christianity: the original Jesus Movement or Hebrew Christians (sometimes called Aramaic Christians, Ebionites or Nasoraeans) with their gospels vs. scriptures associated with Paul and what evolved into the Roman church.
The Gospels of the Hebrews and Ebionites describe a vegetarian ethos: a vegetarian Jesus and vegetarian Apostles, a John the Baptist who ate carob (locust beans) — beans not bugs! and a rejection of ritual animal sacrifice, be it in pagan temples or the Jewish temple of Jerusalem.
For the followers of Paul, dropping the vegetarian dietary requirement of the Jesus Movement was a way to make it easier to get more converts around the Roman Empire.
In Sikhism as well we see a similar kind of shift away from the earlier vegetarian ethics of the founder, Guru Nanak, towards meat-eating gradually getting adopted by orthodox Sikhism.
In each of these cases the original spiritual movements were vegetarian, but later versions of these paths eventually accommodated the diet of the larger cultures around them swelling their ranks.
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Oklahoma’s MAGA superintendent who demanded Bibles in class faces investigation after TV in his office shows naked women

Why should the irrelevant fact that this guy may or may not like to look at softcore erotica have any bearing pertaining to the discussions about bibles in schools?


Seems to like they're coming from the same thought process
"Since this person can't live up to their own moral code XYZ, then that's reason for moral code XYZ to be scrapped"

When, in fact, anything to do with forcing bibles into schools should be argued against from a 1st amendment perspective, not a self-identifying Christian's internet search history.

If people aren't going at it from that angle, then why add the "who demanded bibles in class" to the title? If that's not part of the thought process, why not leave that part out?
Exposing the alleged bankruptcy of a cultural movement is part of the agenda here. Its not just about the specific proposal at hand.
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Oklahoma’s MAGA superintendent who demanded Bibles in class faces investigation after TV in his office shows naked women

Why should the irrelevant fact that this guy may or may not like to look at softcore erotica have any bearing pertaining to the discussions about bibles in schools?


Seems to like they're coming from the same thought process
"Since this person can't live up to their own moral code XYZ, then that's reason for moral code XYZ to be scrapped"

When, in fact, anything to do with forcing bibles into schools should be argued against from a 1st amendment perspective, not a self-identifying Christian's internet search history.

If people aren't going at it from that angle, then why add the "who demanded bibles in class" to the title? If that's not part of the thought process, why not leave that part out?
What is the objective of forcing student to read Bible or hanging Ten commandment in school?
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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Romans 10:9-13 (KJV)

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

The scripture has been posted numerous times, and it states it in ultra clear language. If you don’t see it, that’s because you can’t see it.

Here’s what Jesus says about it, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”
Unrelated Scripture to the one in question have been posted, which he adds a restriction that isn't present to.
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Oklahoma’s MAGA superintendent who demanded Bibles in class faces investigation after TV in his office shows naked women

If a man in his 30s is going to watch porn these days, he's going to watch actual porn, rather than what looks like vintage images from the 60's.
It's a matter of taste and preference - you can't judge what all men prefer by your own preferences.
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What is your opinion and experience with women with short hair?

First, this isn't the topic of conversation.

Second, I don't date, and I don't make the first step. There are times where they do. So, I tell them I am highly religious. Those that are of faith, know what it means. It is made such that time isn't wasted, straight upfront. There's no point in give hope where there isn't.

Third, this specific case, God cut out the desire for sexual intercourse. And never felt loneliness my entire life. These two are perceived as gifts, and I suspect are to give me freedom from.. whatever the world is doing. This hookup/breakup/neediness, and so forth.
Well that maybe so . But it was you that brought the matter up about telling woman that you only date virgins in your post 40. Prudent You say the God cut off all Loneness from you and all sexual desire too. Yu be 37 yu be fully human. It is not good for the man to be alone . No one likes to be alone. No one makes it on their own ❤️ It is late now it be the sleep time . Good night
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If God can replace Israel, He can replace the Church, too

The only understanding of "Israel" that matters is God's understanding; i.e.,
those of faith in Jesus Christ are Abraham's seed (Gal 3:29), the true Israel (Ro 9:6-8, Gal 3:7-9, 6:16).

True Israel is "international Christianiity."
You should be aware that saying "true Israel" consists of "Abraham's seed" says nothing to our discussion and does not address whether "Israel" refers to Jewish people or to International Christianity. *All* Christians are viewed, biblically, as "Abraham's seed" via faith in Christ.

Obviously, the literal nation of Israel was called to represent, as a nation, the believing descendants of Abraham in society. And many other nations have now been called to that, as well. Just being nations who represent children of faith, or Abraham's descendants through faith, does not determine which nation we are talking about, whether Israel or a community of nations.

I'll say it again....

Gal 3.7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

This simply states the common element of faith that those from any nation have with those of other nations. It does not state that "Israel" means "all nations of faith."

Gal 6.16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

Paul here is referring to the nation biologically descended from Abraham, the nation of Israel. He is not redefining "Israel" as meaning other nations being included with Israel. Israel is the national standard when they are operating in true faith.

It would be entirely irrational for Paul to refer to "Israel" unless he was referring to the literal nation. To use the term as a metaphor for the entire interntional Church would confuse the very distinciton among a plurality of nations that he referred to when referencing God's promise to Abraham to make for him nations (plural) of faith.

God did not promise Abraham a metaphorical nation (singular) of faith. Rather, He promised him a plurality of nations, along with a singular biological nation for his natural posterity.

Your use of the singular metaphor "Israel" is *not* how Paul is using the term, quite obviously. The choice to do so reflects a theological partiality towards what I call "Replacement Theology," an anti-Dispensational element in Covenant Theology.

I'm not a Dispensationalist (for the most part), and I do agree with much of Covenant Theology. But this strange use of metaphorical language using "Israel" as representative of the international Church is just not what I see Paul doing.
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Futurist Only Leaving a Rapture note for unbelieving family

Hey, I got convicted today about leaving a Rapture note for my mother who is kind of on the fence about Jesus, so a letter outlining to her what is going to happen in the world if/when a Rapture does occur is necessary. I don't know why I didn't do this earlier. Shame on me.

Of note, today I saw a post about Rapture that I thought was very interesting, so I'll share it now. In Revelation 4:5 it says: From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing

i find it very interesting that the seven lamps (presumably from Rev 2 & 3) are in the throne room BEFORE Tribulation occurs in Revelation. That would seem to indicate that the 7 churches have been taken in Rapture.

okay, on to my note to my mother. Give me feedback and let me know if you've done the same for unbelieving family/friends to help them navigate the perilous trib. Some people may disagree with what i am about to say, but the only response I can give is; desperate times call for desperate measures. I would do anything, at this point, to preserve my mother's soul.

DEAR MOM
If you are reading this, I have disappeared in what we Christians know as "The Rapture." Great evil is about to come upon the Earth soon, if it is not already present. You must leave this world quickly. You cannot take the Mark of the Beast, that will be required for buying amd selling. If you take the Mark, you will burn forever. Do not tell [brother], he will not believe you and will probably encourage you to stay and take the mark. There should be public executions with guillotines. Go and cut your head off, for the sake of Jesus, the only God who is true. If the mark is being enforced without these public execution areas, you must kill yourself instantly by getting into a head-on collision while driving. That is the only way I can think to end your life immediately. You must not take the mark. Die for Jesus and I will see you in Heaven. You were and are a good mother [name]. Do as I say and leave this world soon. DO NOT TAKE THE MARK.

Love your son, [name]
I wouldn't tell her to kill herself. Getting saved by placing her trust in Christ is sufficient to protect her soul. Besides, she might find the letter after your physical death was not part of the rapture and misunderstand the note and kill herself without being saved. I would be terrible if this happened.
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Oklahoma’s MAGA superintendent who demanded Bibles in class faces investigation after TV in his office shows naked women

The "are you suggesting..." routine has gotten tiresome. Does the Bible condemn the appearance of women? No. Does the Bible condemn looking at a woman? No. Does the Bible condemn lusting after a woman? Yes. The images of nudes in the Sistine Chapel are not the problem. Lusting after them and gratifying oneself to them is the problem. Not to mention that would be really weird.

Now what evidence whatsoever is there that Walters was gratifying himself? Some are so thirsty to condemn someone they do so based on their own imaginings. Some might even call it projecting.
Are you suggesting that viewing, collecting, possessing nude picture is acceptable as long as it does not involve lust or gratification? Are you implying that it would be appropriate for young boys and girls to view or own images featuring nudity as long as lust is not involve because similar nudity existing in Sistine Chaple?
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Trump Temporarily Freezes all Federal Grant and Loan Payments

Speaking of temporary freezes...

Trump administration reverses course, lifts pause on NIH grant awards

The White House Office of Management and Budget halted payments from the National Institutes of Health to researchers around the country, according to a memo sent to the institute and center directors at the agency on Tuesday afternoon. Then late in the evening, after protests from members of Congress and patient advocacy groups, the Trump administration reversed the move and reinstated the funding.

Efficiency, steadfastness, and transparency.
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A whites-only community in Arkansas looking to start a franchise in Missouri

What do you mean used to become American? Immigrants who come here are American.

What does "speaking American" mean?

Yes, American culture is a diverse tapestry--that was kind of my point. But you're the one who said there's no such thing as American culture.
This was in response to you in your post saying white culture does not exist. You want to ignore white culture in America, as American. Hence what speaking American means....
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what "white culture" is.

-CryptoLutheran
All the cultures which exclude white culture of course. Those which desire to not assimilate.
Fly their flags, speak their language, etc.
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The Art of (Epstein) Distraction

And before that the Biden DOJ had it for four years and never accused or speculated that Trump was involved with juvniles, like you did. You are all alone on this one.
And for the entire four years, Epstein had been dead for years. I am not alone in this. Have you not heard of Virginia Giuffre? Donald John has been declaring, in public, for attribution, that he was upset that Epstein "stole" her, that he "stole" a 16 year old spa employee.
Okay, uncertain, which means not known or established, not determined or not having sure knowledge.
It is a literary phrase, "a woman of an uncertain age" which Wolff used as an inversion: "girls of an uncertain age".
So I dont think that helps your case. Even Wolff didn't speculate.
There are none so blind.
And you STILL have no photographs.
You might as well put that in your signature. Why would I have photographs? I won't have them tomorrow either. I have never ever had them, never claimed to have them.

The actual claim is that Epstein showed them to Wolff, then returned them to his safe which was later raided by the DOJ.

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Happy now? Still claiming that I'm making it all up?
Yes and you still dont have any photographs.
You might as well put that in your signature. Why would I have photographs? I won't have them tomorrow either. I have never ever had them, never claimed to have them.
Just the statement of a questionable journalist. Who also didn't support your accusation.

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Your accusation was a fabrication. Do I need to quote you again?
I've asked you to stop accusing me of lying. At this point, you should apologize for your libel.
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Trump says he wants to deport ‘the worst of the worst,’ but ICE data shows 72% of people detained have no criminal convictions

I think that we should distinguish between detaining and deporting.
============================
I don't like the tactics of ICE. These tactics will change (perhaps for the better, perhaps for the worst) now that they will have detention facilities and much more money. Perhaps businessfolk will convince Trump to exclude certain industries.
============================
THE GOAL OF DEPORTING UNDOCUMENTED FOLKS WITH VIOLENT CRIMINAL CONVICTIONF OR EXISTING DEPORTATION ORDERS
1) I support that goal.
2) I support the deportation of those undocumented who have come in the past 5 years.
3) To get these folks, I accept detaining lots of folks (WITH CAUSE). This will definitely include a majority who do not have criminal records. The issue is how the government decides who to DEPORT. Detaining folks could lead to a smaller percentage of deportations compared with the easier Trump strategy of simply arresting them and deporting with no due process or even investigation. Because of past government failures, many innocent people will end up being detained while their status is investigated. Obviously, the detention camps should NOT resemble the current ones. My guess is that this method will continue with the next president. METHOD: 1) have reasonable suspicion, 2) detain, 3) investigate and have appropriate judicial proceedings, 4) deport or set free with a path to legal status.
4) The current rates of deportation are tiny compared to those of Obama.
5) Add those who have come in the last 5 years, those with existing deportation order and those who have conviction of a violent crime. My guess is that this total is many time the goal of 4 million. We SHOULD fight the methods but not the goal which is indeed what got Trump elected and a majority of Americans approve.
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How does the idea that most of Gods creation he will have to burn forever bring glory to God?

Thinking someone, anyone is "lost" isn't a requirement of Christianity. We are all lost to varying degrees, so it's quite pointless to point fingers.

John advised us in 1 John 4:7 that everyone who loves knows God and is born of God. Bam. Nailed it right there.
Does everyone love?

“The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4‬:‭8‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
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By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

And as long as that experience is supported by evidence of good fruit in your life then you have good reason for confidence. Without that, we should question whether we're even His.
Well, it is true that the fruit of the Spirit are evident. And seeing the good fruit is an aid to help young children in the faith learn that the steps they are taking as they learn to walk in the Spirit are the right steps. But after decades of practice, a person develops an intimate personal relationship with the Lord. His presence, His glory, His holiness, and His will (among other things) are directly discernable and the fruit is no longer necessary as a teaching aid. If, after decades of intimacy with the Lord, His presence were to become undiscernable, I don't see how a few fruits would help that person's despair.
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