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Hentenza · Sep 4, 2025

Valletta said:
If presentism is to be applied to anyone it should be you. You look at very plain straightforward statements through your own lens of preconceived ideas.
Understand it wasn't just Christians who were against cannibalism, it was the Jews and pagan Romans as well. Our Lord told us to eat His flesh and drink His blood in remembrance of Him. Jesus is present in a consecrated host under the appearance of bread and wine, Jesus is alive, and His Body remains no matter how many people eat of it. That is NOT cannibalism. In the early Church such charges of cannibalism were made by the pagans and the Jews against Christians. The early Christians were persecuted over such charges because they indeed believe what appeared to be bread and wine was truly the body and blood of Our Lord. In fact,Justin Martyr himself addressed the Jews over this matter:

"And whether they perpetrate those fabulous and shameful deeds — the upsetting of the lamp, and promiscuous intercourse, and eating human flesh — we know not; but we do know that they are neither persecuted nor put to death by you, at least on account of their opinions. But I have a treatise against all the heresies that have existed already composed, which, if you wish to read it, I will give you."
Chapter 26, The First Apology

CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

So you agree with me for point one of my argument. Now please address points 2 and 3. Thanks.

Hentenza · Sep 4, 2025

The Liturgist said:
That’s not presentism, since we know from the oldest Eucharistic text such as the ancient Antiochene Anaphora of the Apostles still used in the Church of Ethiopia, but attested to in the second century writings of St. Hippolytus, or the Anaphora of St. Mark still occasionally used by Alexandrian Greek Orthodox, and by the Coptic and Syriac Orthodox (who refer to it as the Anaphora of St. Cyril), attested to in the Strasbourg Papyrus, which at least dates from the fourth century, and the fourth century Euchologion of St. Sarapion of Thmuis, and other ancient anaphoras, such as that of St. James, used since antiquity in Jerusalem, and the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, itself a minor variant of of the Antiochene Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles, itself a textual variant of the aforementioned Anaphora of the Apostles, and the ancient Byzantine and Egyptian versions of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil, and the ancient Roman Canon, estimated to date from the third or fourth century (the most cutting-edge liturgiological hypothesis suggests the Roman Canon is related to the Anaphora of St. Mark), and finally the Anaphora of the Apostles Addai and Mari, believed by many liturgiologists since well before Dom Gregory Dix to be the oldest liturgy still in use, among the Aramaic-speaking Assyrians and Indians in the Church of the East and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, the Chaldeans of the Chaldean Catholic Church and some Western and Filipino converts to the aforesaid churches, and also disused liturgical texts such as that of the Apostolic Constitutions and that of the Didache.

All of these contain strong affirmations that the bread and wine literally become the Body and Blood of our Lord, and ancient hymns, such as the fifth or sixth century Haw Nurone, and other anaphoras of similar age, confirm that it retains the perceptual attributes of bread and wine.

Thus, while the specific Scholastic explanation given by St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologica is of comparatively recent origin, the idea it refers to is not, and is shared with the Orthodox, Anglo-Catholics and other High Church Anglicans, and the Lutherans (who reject the specific wording of transsubstantion but accept the Real Presence of Christ in, with and other the species of bread and wine).

I should add that there are no statements in the ancient liturgical texts that I have encountered that are denials of the Real Presence, such as the infamous Black Rubric introduced in the 1552 Book of Common Prayer, removed in the Elizabethan book, reintroduced in 1662 due to fears of renewed civil war with the Puritans, and removed again in the Scottish, American and other more recent BCPs, including the 1928 Deposited Book which, had non-Anglican Members of Parliament not conspired to prevent this, would be the Book of Common Prayer of the Church of England now (except it is no longer relevant, since in the aftermath of that scandal the Church of England became liturgically autonomous, publishing various Trial Liturgies followed by the Alternative Service Book and its successor, Common Worship, still in use today, the traditional language services of which including Holy Communion owe more to the 1928 Deposited Book than to the 1662 BCP which still remains nominally official but which contains some material offensive to most Anglicans at present (which at least culturally would include myself insofar as I joined the Episcopal Church before becoming an Orthodox Christian and would serve in a Western Rite Orthodox parish which is basically the realization of the attempted union of the Episcopal Church and the Russian Orthodox Church which was thwarted by the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917, and advocate for full communion between the Orthodox and all traditional Anglicans…I am what in the UK they jokingly call “Angliochian”).

Let me qualify my argument because you are misinterpreting it. My argument is against transubstantiation not against real presence. Your argument above centers on real presence, which is your church’s belief. Scripture teaches that where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name He is there.

eclipsenow · Sep 4, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
Thank God we have a President who knows how to negotiate with trans national leaders.

Look at you - believing Fox news!

Yes, tariffs may balance the budget—on paper—but they can still undermine the economy’s foundations.

The 4/5ths of economists are overwhelmingly convinced that while things might ad up on paper - the overall economic "pie" will shrink.

Indeed - the same CBO you quote had this ominous news.

WASHINGTON, June 4 (Reuters) - U.S. economic output will fall as a result of President Donald Trump's new tariffs on foreign goods that were in place as of May 13, while also reducing federal budget deficits by $2.8 trillion over a decade, the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office said on Wednesday...

... "CBO estimates that, on net, real (inflation-adjusted) economic output in the United States will fall as a result," the agency said.

"Inflation will increase by an annual average of 0.4 percentage points in 2025 and 2026, in CBO’s estimation, reducing the purchasing power of households and businesses," the letter to Schumer and Senators Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley stated.

Loading…

www.investopedia.com

But others see the deficit spiralling out of control if the tariffs are worse than the CBO models.
As the video I submitted above says, this could be an economic catastrophe if the dollar becomes unreliable.

Also - why shrink the overall economy and alienate allies with tariffs when most modern nations go through the industrialisation phase, manufacturing phase, and then graduate into handing those off to smaller economies while they move into more profitable niche service streams? What America SHOULD have done is run programs to retrain those manufacturers into other more viable career paths, not pretend that they were somehow going to step back in time to a previous lower-level economy. The modern world moves on from mostly manufacturing. This is known.

Instead - rather than half-starve your economy and alienate allies - how about the Federal & State governments reach a budget arrangement (as is done in Australia) of roughly half-each responsibility - to BUY OUT maybe 60% of your hospitals and nationalise them to be government owned and operated? Then you could offer universal health cover at half the price - and eventually save $1 to $1.5 TRILLION a year in health costs. It would take a while - but eventually the health savings would pay for itself.

And America would not look like the crazy outlier it is on healthcare costs right now!

List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

BelieveItOarKnot · Sep 4, 2025

The Righterzpen said:
Why would Jesus tell a parable that is in essence "a lie"?

What lie?

The Righterzpen said:
Why would all these other Scriptures (one's you've even quoted here); in essence be telling lies?

May not fit the lies you've been taught more likely

The Righterzpen said:
And why do you even try and convince me; because according to your belief; I got a ticket in. I'm human. I'm atoned for!

Never said that either. Not all of you is just you.

We all are engaged with the tempter and his own, internally. This is the essence of the observation

BelieveItOarKnot · Sep 4, 2025

Aseyesee said:
Does God control this adversary in us, or is he free to do as he will?

The adversary reacts adversely and can do no other. An anti spiritual robot if you prefer

eclipsenow · Sep 4, 2025

Richard T said:
The EU example you give was mostly about economics and politics.

Sure - and SCO is no where near Europe in the 1950's in terms of mutual economic need.

This brilliant British analysis of what SCO achieved this week shows China to now be the reliable business partner - and the USA is perceived as an erratic, unstable, unreliable great big bully. This from an international conference of business people.

This episode was both more amusing and alarming than I expected it to be!

Narendra Modi trolls Trump by having similar shots about himself now with Putin vs Trump's mug shots with Modi.

Putin useful to China as the crazy guy that can say ALL THE THINGS to the world and the west that China - in its long game - prefers not to.

Many nations starting to investigate trading MORE with China now that they are starting to see America as the biggest bully in the playground - saying the quiet bits out loud now with no one able to control Trump's NPD.

( Listen to the first 20 to 25 minutes until they start analysing ASEAN. )
Login to view embedded media

o_mlly · Sep 4, 2025

River Jordan said:
But it does include experimentation, as shown by the link I posted to the PNAS that shows thousands of examples of experimentation in evolutionary biology.

That's why you referred to the first paper as "a human controlled experiment", which makes this whole thing even more strange. On one hand you're claiming experimentation isn't included in evolutionary biology but on the other you're referring to a "human controlled experiment" in evolutionary biology.

Where is the requested quotation of my post that supports your claim? As I suspected and predicted you've descended to fallacious strawman argument.

Strange? What is strange is one who imagines that a human design of experiment (aka, intelligent design) could show that intelligent design is not probable.

Aseyesee · Sep 4, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
There is an adversary that is not the person. And none of us stop that adversary from doing what it does

Does God control this adversary in us, or is he free to do as he will?

JohnC101 · Sep 4, 2025

Aseyesee · Sep 4, 2025

boughtwithaprice said:
It is only by the power of Christ and His shed blood that sin is taken away. Though our sins be red as scarlet they will be made as white as snow

Reasoning with God has the same outcome ...

No matter if you believe one way or the other, without God there would have been no devil ...

Do you believe God was surprised at the outcome of having created man on the earth (like God coming down to see if what he heard was true Gen18:21), or was this said for our sake? an Adam "Where art thou" ...

The Righterzpen · Sep 4, 2025

BelieveItOarKnot said:
They don't. IF you read the Bible you won't find a single named person ever stated to be in hell or the LoF now or in the future. Such a thing is not even in writing to begin with. There is not even a single named person even threatened with such a fate.

But Jesus could look any of us in the face, condemn us to the fire, and that condemnation is for the tempter. Just as Jesus addressed Satan speaking from Peter's lips or any other of the thousands of examples of Jesus engaging devils in mankind.

Fact is, that's been going on since day 1 of mankind. God is not just interacting with people only. There are these powers and agents in play:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

That wickedness is built directly into us all. We all got our little piece of the dark pie the moment we hit the earth. It's also why we're all sinners, because these matters are not about "just people" at all. There are other things going on that are being played out in real life, real time. Most often unseen.

Every Word of God applies to us all. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

God bound us all to disobedience, Jew and Gentile alike. Blinded by the god of this world. Mark 4:15, Romans 3:9, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

It's a parable ^^^

In order to understand "all parables" we have to go to Jesus for the answer, in Mark 4:13

In that parable we are to understand all parables. There are 3 parties in that parable. God, mankind and devils.

In the parable of Mark 4, we have God's Word obviously, people and Satan.

IF any of these 3 parties are missing from the narrative, then the understanding is void.

In Luke 16 we have essentially a "rich man" eating up all the goods and Lazarus, a poor beggar.

Do the math from there. The rich man is without a name for a reason. That rich man was the internal thief of Lazarus, our adversary.

Jer. 5:
26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

Why would Jesus tell a parable that is in essence "a lie"? Why would all these other Scriptures (one's you've even quoted here); in essence be telling lies?

And why do you even try and convince me; because according to your belief; I got a ticket in. I'm human. I'm atoned for!

The Righterzpen · Sep 4, 2025

Jamdoc said:
Well there's just no point in me sticking around.

I just shouldn't bother talking to people, since it always gets misconstrued and people hate me.

I don't belong anywhere, in any community.

So I'll just delete my account.

Congratulations Rightterzpen, you've bullied someone off, glory yourself in that and feel proud.

Congratulations, Jamdoc, you've managed to frustrate a lot of people, who honestly tried to help you.

And considering you’ve been on this site since 2019 (six years) I’d really be surprised if you did actually delete your account. So stop with the games. I still aint buying it. You’re not a victim here.

Figure it out between you and God! You clearly wish to argue with men; but maybe you’ll actually listen to God?

Yet since you’ve convinced yourself that God is only in this for His own selfish reasons; it’s not likely you are going to listen to Him either.

I'm out!

Larniavc · Sep 4, 2025

With all the fuss made about Jade Helm 15 where troops where engaging in training exercises were predicted to be the first wave of a drive to get federal troops in American cities and FEMA death camps for Obama’s enemies.

Are there contemporary concerns being raised about ACTUAL federal troops in cities?

Is it all okay now but not okay then? If so, why so?

stevevw · Sep 4, 2025

Aaron112 said:
Is there any testimony or evidence that the followers of Jesus were actually a threat to "pagan" Romans ?

Only in how the emperors and especially Nero executed so many. Especially the leaders when they were summons to Rome to renounce their belief and bow to the pagan gods or be executed. Peter, Paul, Clement and many others. For example Paul was executed with a other leaders.

But also average Christians and I think right into the 4th century. Of course we have the famous claim by Nero blaming the Christians as causing the great fire of Rome and other Roman heads who wrote how destestable or trouble making Christians were.

Even late in the 2nd century under Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius was entertaining the crowds by feeding Christians to the beasts. There is an account of a 2nd century slave women named Blandina who was fed to the beasts after being tortured for several days at the Colosseum. The Romans could not believe what they considered the lowest of low be so brave. Despite a long and painful ordeal she never wavered and prayed to God.

Thats why they hated Christians because they feared God and especially Christ. We can see it was still a thorn in Romes side for a long time until Christianity became the religion of the Empire that persecuted it.

Theres stories of dead criminals and Christians on spikes some just heads on spikes lining the roads into Rome as a deterent. But this would not count the everyday persecution and secrecy Christians had to live under. At least until it spread beyond Rome. Several early secret chapels have been found. But also Christians would have met in back streets and houses, in dark corners and upper rooms.

So they were not free and we could imagine today if a group is descriminated and persecuted and not able to freely live their belief. I think in some ways this is happening again. Though no where near as brutal as the early church.

Though in some nations its getting to genocidal levels and the world does not really care. Where are all the protests blocking streets over Christians being wiped out.

Persecution to levels near genocide, new ACN report declares

Persecution to levels near genocide, new ACN report declares

Jihadists and nationalists have driven rates of Christian persecution to extreme levels approaching genocide in some countries around the ...

catholicweekly.com.au

I think we have at the same time seen a rise in descrimination and in some cases attacks and persecution on Christians in the west as well. In some ways similar to the Jews at present. There is definitely some spiritual warfare going on. And I think IMO this has risen at the same time the west has rejected God from the public square. In some ways resembling the pagan world of early Christians.

Aaron112 said:
I think instead the false religious leaders did not want true disciples to live.
The false religious leaders persuaded or forced or otherwise got the "pagan?" Romans to take sides against the faithful followers of Jesus.

Maybe. I think they may have been two sides of the same coin. Both had a reason to deminish or get rid of Christians. Primarily Christ and Christians by extention represented the truth. Any other idea even religious was not the truth and therefore ultimately antiChrist.

As Christ said your either for me or against me and you can't serve two GOds. Whether that was pagan Rome with its politics and material wealth and human made gods or the political Jews who wanted religious power on earth. Or the false teachers who may have exploited everything just to undermine the truth.

I think usually the false teachers within the church have learnt all the tricks and can manipulate words and muddy the waters. They will latch onto any latest idea so long as its about their ideas and not any sacrifrice and submission or obedience to someone beyond themselves who they must bow to. Thats why they are wolves in sheeps clothing. They are good at what they do.

A New Dawn · Sep 4, 2025

Dan Perez said:
And all better see that it does NOT say WATER // HYDOR IN MARK 16:16. !!

Unless you ADD HYDOR to it. !!

dan p

Baptism as a symbolic statement of faith is water baptism to both represent our spiritual baptism that we have already been partakers of in regeneration and a picture of Christ’s burial (being lowered into a watery grave) and resurrection (being brought up as a new creature in God).

johnnypapa · Sep 4, 2025

The Weaponization of Transgenderism and the Response of the Cross

“A gun is a tool, Marion, no better or no worse than any other tool; an axe, a shovel, or anything.” A newly hired ranch-hand said that to a concerned mother after she objected to the man giving her young son some shooting lessons. It’s from the 1953 movie Shane, where a silent and kindhearted […]

catholicexchange.com

A New Dawn · Sep 4, 2025

Hans Blaster said:
What has this got to do with excessive seizing of executive power in violation of the Constitution?

Because that is what was happening under the Biden shadow government.

johnnypapa · Sep 4, 2025

Triumph of the Heart: Not Just a Movie, But a Mission

When I boarded the plane to Poland, I thought I was simply heading to a few world premieres of a new movie. I expected a red carpet, some interviews, a bit of content creation, and the thrill of being part of a big release. But what I encountered was far more than a film tour. […]

catholicexchange.com

A New Dawn · Sep 4, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
Christian Smith, a sociologist of religion, hasn't confirmed anything like this happening in the data. More Bible sales a a few anecdotes about young people in stadiums doesn't change long term trends.

My local congregationalist church has gotten two more regular attendees, both young people... but those don't counter the trend and hardly make up for losses. Many young people perceive institutional churches as places of politics and moral hypocrisy, not spiritual formation.

Many young people who are young in their faith may tend to be more what they call “spiritual” and think church is just religion, end up with no guidance in their spiritual lives and so fall away quickly. The problem with this scenario is that senior members of churches aren’t willing to welcome youth in to participate and bring their youthful energy and worship into church. I was a member of such a church and even when our youth became young adults wanting to serve, we were pushed away by the older generation and then they (the older ones) said nobody was willing to step up.

The youth needs the guidance of people more mature in their faith to help them grow, and the older ones need to learn how to let them be active participating member of the community.

Normandt · Sep 4, 2025

220. With Jesus

Evangelization is realized to the extent that we are in communion with Jesus. Without Jesus, without welcoming his Love in our heart, there’s no evangelization and null is the mission.

Whatever the function or mission in the Church, to achieve success, we must be on the move with Jesus. This is what the first Apostles understood. The author of the Acts of the Apostles describes it well:

“After staying there some time, he left and travelled in orderly sequence through the Galatian country and Phrygia, bringing strength to all the disciples.” Acts, chapter 18, verse 23

Paul is successful and this success is indebted to Jesus. It is with Jesus that Paul succeeds in the mission.

The new American Bible, 2011-2014

Book: Let’s evangelize, Normand Thomas

Pioneer3mm · Sep 4, 2025

Currently, 60F
High 84F
- Moderate Rain
--
Mid-Atlantic
6:30 am

johnnypapa · Sep 4, 2025

Dina Belanger’s Unrelenting Quest for Perfection - Catholic Insight

Blessed Dina Belanger (+1929) is a home-grown Canadian saint whom we commemorate today. (The martyr Andre Grasset, whom we celebrated two days ago, is still a beatus). Born April 30th, 1897 in St. Roch, Quebec, now a suburb of the capital city, Dina was baptized a few hours later. (After all...

catholicinsight.com

johnnypapa · Sep 4, 2025

Gregory the Great, a Pope for All Seasons - Catholic Insight

One of the great joys of history is reminiscing about the past, giving hope for the present; for history is ‘eschatological’, moving towards a final purpose. Hence, we Catholics should never lose hope, and this virtue is easier to cultivate and foster in our souls if, as Christ said, we could...

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Pope Benedict’s First Address on Saint Gregory the Great - Catholic Insight

BENEDICT XVI GENERAL AUDIENCE Wednesday, 28 May 2008 Saint Gregory the Great (1) Dear Brothers and Sisters, Last Wednesday I spoke of a Father of the Church little known in the West, Romanus the Melodist. Today I would like to present the figure of one of the greatest Fathers in the history of...

catholicinsight.com

Pope Benedict’s Second Address on Pope Gregory the Great - Catholic Insight

BENEDICT XVI GENERAL AUDIENCE Wednesday, 4 June 2008 Saint Gregory the Great (2) Dear Brothers and Sisters, Today, at our Wednesday appointment, I return to the extraordinary figure of Pope Gregory the Great to receive some additional light from his rich teaching. Notwithstanding the many duties...

catholicinsight.com

BelieveItOarKnot · Sep 4, 2025

The Righterzpen said:
But if the demon is condemned and the person is atoned for; how do any humans end up in hell?

They don't. IF you read the Bible you won't find a single named person ever stated to be in hell or the LoF now or in the future. Such a thing is not even in writing to begin with. There is not even a single named person even threatened with such a fate.

But Jesus could look any of us in the face, condemn us to the fire, and that condemnation is for the tempter. Just as Jesus addressed Satan speaking from Peter's lips or any other of the thousands of examples of Jesus engaging devils in mankind.

Fact is, that's been going on since day 1 of mankind. God is not just interacting with people only. There are these powers and agents in play:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

That wickedness is built directly into us all. We all got our little piece of the dark pie the moment we hit the earth. It's also why we're all sinners, because these matters are not about "just people" at all. There are other things going on that are being played out in real life, real time. Most often unseen.

The Righterzpen said:
The context of both these verses is concerning descendants of Jacob; as opposed to all the rest of the nations. Thus what "he gave himself a ransom for all" means.

Every Word of God applies to us all. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

God bound us all to disobedience, Jew and Gentile alike. Blinded by the god of this world. Mark 4:15, Romans 3:9, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

The Righterzpen said:
For example; the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

It's a parable ^^^

In order to understand "all parables" we have to go to Jesus for the answer, in Mark 4:13

In that parable we are to understand all parables. There are 3 parties in that parable. God, mankind and devils.

In the parable of Mark 4, we have God's Word obviously, people and Satan.

IF any of these 3 parties are missing from the narrative, then the understanding is void.

In Luke 16 we have essentially a "rich man" eating up all the goods and Lazarus, a poor beggar.

Do the math from there. The rich man is without a name for a reason. That rich man was the internal thief of Lazarus, our adversary.

Jer. 5:
26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Hosea 5:4
They will not frame their doings to turn unto their God: for the spirit of whoredoms is in the midst of them, and they have not known the Lord.

Strong in Him · Sep 4, 2025

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Our Lord told his Decuples that a lot of what they heard, they will not understand until a later time (after Pentecost?); this was not only a prophesy about the crucifixion but the promise of real grace given through the eucharist.

Yes, a lot of things made sense to them after the resurrection. And Jesus stayed on earth for 40 more days before his ascension, teaching them about the kingdom.

But IF he said to them, "remember what I said after the feeding of the 5000? When you break bread together you have to believe that this literally becomes my body and that only through IT can I be in you", it's not recorded anywhere.

There is a big difference between the 12 disciples understanding a few years later what Jesus meant, and us reading into his words over 1000 years later.

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