JohnClay said:

That sounds to me like "it does matter" therefore it is true... though maybe my reasoning is flawed.

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If I were presenting that as an argument, I suppose that would be accurate. But insofar as I argue that it's true, it's simply that it is the most parsimonious explanation for a minimum set of generally accepted facts and when we try to compare it to analogues the closest we can point to is things like the cargo cults of micronesia, which were built around true events that the people interpreted according to their worldview.

Apple Sky said:

Have you ever watched a ship disappear over the horizon ?

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Interesting.

Geometry tells us that the distance of the horizon – i.e. the farthest point the eye can see before Earth curves out beneath our view – depends simply on the height of the observer.

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BNR32FAN said:

Scripture doesn’t support driving a pickup truck, but it also doesn’t forbid anyone from doing so.

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That's very different. Scripture doesn't mention driving motor vehicles at all, so of course we don't look in the bible for support for driving a pickup truck. However, Scripture does say a lot about prayer. Apart from reports of prayers to false gods, for example "O Baal hear us!" on Mount Carmel, all prayer in the bible is addressed to God.

Fervent said:

God Am has a little more depth, though still has anti-Christian elements...which is partly because there was a split between Jerry Cantrell and Layne Staley when it came to Christianity. Layne repeatedly attempted to engage with Christianity, and blamed himself for failing to be a stand up Christian while Jerry blamed Christianity and had a lot of hostility towards it. Since Jerry wrote most of the songs lyrics, or at least did the final edit, the hostility comes through more clearly than the longing and depression when repeatedly falling short that Layne expressed.

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"Get Born Again"'s lyrics were written by Layne, specifically. It, and Died are the last 2 songs Layne wrote for them.
So I guess in the end he gave up..
It's very sad. Though I can understand his struggles, like too often when trying to walk with Christ we think we have to be perfect, and we take our failings as a loss of assurance in Christ, and at times get angry with God thinking He must be rejecting us because we're unable to stop sinning. We put it on ourselves and not on Christ. We constantly have to remember in our failures that our salvation is not because of our attempts at obedience, but because Jesus obeyed and died in our place for our disobedience.

To be honest.. one of the reasons I myself dislike singing hymns, is because I connect singing to pain, Vocalists like Layne are one of the reasons why. Because Layne, Kurt, and many other vocalists I know use singing as an expression of their pain, their struggles, their failures, I can understand belting out powerful vocals as a coping mechanism for pain and angst, singing for joy? Seems foreign.
So what made Layne a very good vocalist was his raw pained expression and power, it gave it authenticity, real emotion.

Do I hope in the end he put away his yoke and put on Christ's? Yeah, absolutely.
But I don't have much confidence that he did.

Apple Sky said:

Exactly

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I'm glad you agree that you are relying only on your senses and not the facts.

Apple Sky said:

And I don't feel the earth move/spin, I see the sun, moon & all the stars move daily across the sky,

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We can't feel the earth spin because it is so large.

You don't SEE them move; you see them in different positions/places in the sky and conclude that they have moved, because you refuse to believe the fact of the rotation of the earth.
You have previously written of a black sun and even, I think, spoken of the sun going under the earth and out the other side - all to explain how the sun sets in one area and arrives in the opposite end of the sky the next morning. You don't SEE that happening yet you seem certain that it is so.

Paul says "we live by faith and not by sight", 2 Corinthians 5:7.

Apple Sky said:

There is only one Uni-verse.

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Oh well, at least you admit now that it exists.

Apple Sky said:

I saddens me that so many people have been hoodwinked by a movable earth that orbits the sun.

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Why?
It has nothing to do with salvation, with believing Genesis 1 or having faith in God. It has nothing to do with the devil and can't keep us away from God, prevent us believing in Jesus and having eternal life.

Apple Sky said:

A Small part of God's creation ? I wouldn't exactly call them small.

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No, YOU wouldn't - you refuse to believe in the vastness of space, planets, the milky way and so on.
A brief search on Google tells me that it is believed there are one hundred thousand million stars in our milky way alone - not to mention all the hundreds of other galaxies. The stars that we can see in the sky above our heads are only a tiny part of that.

Apple Sky said:

We know how great, all knowing God is, he is the all & everything & he created this beautiful still level earth just for us & all praise & worship should go to him.

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Oh, all praise and worship does go to him - on my part.
He is to be praised and worshipped because he is Creator of all things - ALL the stars, planets, galaxies and so on. And in this vast, gi-normous universe he has created humans in his image and loves, cares for and intimately knows each one of us.

Another question; how many people do you think there are, and ever have been, in the entire world?
When God spoke to Abraham he told him that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky, Genesis 15:5. Abraham's first son was Ishmael, who grew up, married and had children. One of Abraham's grandsons was Esau, who married and had a large family. His other grandson, Jacob, married and had at least 12 sons and a daughter - they all had families.
Supposing there are/were/have been a million people who were related to and descended from, Abraham - as Abraham's descendants were to be as numerous as the stars in the sky, how many stars do you think there are?

Fervent said:

I'm of the opinion that there is a historical core to it, but that what that historical core is is largely unrecoverable especially for the OT. The only event that I take to be unassailable is the resurrection, since the story of Jesus really doesn't matter if its not true.

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That sounds to me like "it does matter" therefore it is true... though maybe my reasoning is flawed.

Fervent said:

Though that's not what I base my "rational" acceptance of it on, instead basing that on applying Occam's razor to the various explanations as the authenticity of the resurrection requires the fewest ad hoc additions to explain what we can reasonably establish factually about it.

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JohnClay said:

Yeah I no longer believe in that kind of all-or-nothing thinking. I think God guided the Bible but hardly any of it is historical. But it is very interesting and can be very controversial though Christians can often justify it all as perfectly loving and moral, etc.

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I'm of the opinion that there is a historical core to it, but that what that historical core is is largely unrecoverable especially for the OT. The only event that I take to be unassailable is the resurrection, since the story of Jesus really doesn't matter if its not true. Though that's not what I base my "rational" acceptance of it on, instead basing that on applying Occam's razor to the various explanations as the authenticity of the resurrection requires the fewest ad hoc additions to explain what we can reasonably establish factually about it.

RileyG said:

The sacrament itself is anonymous, again. The bill won’t pass SCOTUS because it’s attacking the faithful.

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It’s only attacking faithful paedophiles by that logic. Is that really what you mean?

Rose_bud said:

I think we belabored this point. We both agree exegesis is beneficial as a starting point and in its broader implications all of these meanings are explored.

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I suppose so.

Rose_bud said:

I understand your concern about introducing artificial concerns, but a set of questions can provide a useful starting point, precisely because we were not there. Can I ask you to give an example of this detriment, because I believe whatever detriment you perceive can happen may be addressed through the broader exegetical processes or integration of multiple approaches in a way that honors the complexity of the text, which I was advocating for.

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The detrimental effect I perceive is unnecessarily providing a sense of legitimacy to individuals who engage with these kinds of questions for the sake of carving out exemptions. When we present notions about the original audience it is quite easy to give the perception that the author's intended to limit their message to a select group and not address the church as a whole. There's also the reality that when there is an intended audience it can change within the text, such as in Romans where there are portions addressed to the Gentiles and the Jews within the congregation.

Rose_bud said:

Sure, but again its not as compartmentalized as you suggest. In practice these questions are often asked not to be the be all and end all of the study, a helpful framework not the end goal. Its approaching the text humbly, critically and equally flexible , recognizing that the questions serve the text, not the other way around. The text guides the inquiry but benefits from the structure questions provide.

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My issue isn't that it's compartmentalized, but that these questions are taken as a universal starting point. My contention is simply that we are better served beginning with the technical aspects of the text, and seeing what questions linger in the background. Sometimes we will find that the same questions are of interest, but not every text requires us to answer such things.

Rose_bud said:

Not at all, when we weigh the internal and external evidence, the internal clues seem to point toward a pre-70 AD date for Hebrews. The author's emphasis on the High Priest and Temple sacrifices as shadows suggests that these practices were still very much alive for the original audience, and to which they were tempted to return to. This historical context gives us a window into their world and the author's warnings and exhortation take on a sense of urgency. The letter's themes of Christ's supremacy and sufficiency continue to resonate with us today, even if we're Gentile and centuries removed. When we understand the historical context, we tap into the richness of the letter's message and see how it applies to our lives in new ways.

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Pre-70, certainly, but I was thinking more about whether or not it was pre-49-50 or post, which more or less is a point where the church went from being a principally Jewish movement to shifting towards Gentiles

Rose_bud said:

When we consider the struggles of the early Christians, their fears and doubts and perseverance, we're drawn into a story that's both ancient and timeless. We see how God's faithfulness played out in their lives and we're reminded that indeed He is still faithful today. The fact that they had such a deep history with God, rooted in the Jewish tradition, that he progressively revealed throughout their history is a powerful reminder of the heritage that underpins our faith. And it's a great encouragement to us to hold onto hope and run the race with endurance. For HE is faithful. Hallelujah!!!

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Yes, Hallelujah.

Rose_bud said:

I don't think I indicated that they were in a constant state of persecution. God does answer prayers for relief

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That was more of a statement about general perceptions and popular presentations.

Rose_bud said:

And I do understand, but their are also means to mitigate with more holistic intergrated approaches.

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Yeah, but in my experience these sorts of issues don't occur to most people naturally such that they find widespread counter.

Rose_bud said:

Ofcourse, identifying the specific audience helps us immerse ourselves in the original context, given we were not there. But integrated approaches can also account for presuppositions and bias so we minimize the effect of reading modern conventions into the text.

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If we're able to accurately do so, but when we're basically playing guess work as we are with Hebrews it may help our imaginations but it doesn't improve our interpretations.

RileyG said:

It’s still an attack against the faithful since confession as a sacrament is anonymous.

It won’t pass in SCOTUS regardless

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What is more important: the safety of a child or the anonymity of a sacrament?

Fervent said:

But the falsehood of YEC doesn't render everything about the Bible false.

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Yeah I no longer believe in that kind of all-or-nothing thinking. I think God guided the Bible but hardly any of it is historical. But it is very interesting and can be very controversial though Christians can often justify it all as perfectly loving and moral, etc.

timothyu said:

One must take differing nations into consideration. Some are more 'entrepreneurial' than others as a means of self-employment. But holding to the rules of the religion vs the teachings of Jesus, has become universal.

When you stop to consider Jesus' prime enemy and main adversary was the clergy and religion of the day, there may be some present day bewilderment. He chastised them for putting themselves and their rules between the people and God (whom He tried to bring back to the people in a personal relationship), Yet the later gentile church did the same as the rabbis of the day, furthering God from the people and inserting themselves and rules between the people and God Himself, once again following the traditional human ways of power and government. Would it strike anyone as odd to be sitting in pews expecting to hear Jesus' truth from clergy who would be condemning themselves if they were honest about who Jesus struggled with, and why??

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I am sure I have read posts from people in various countries that say that their church meets in hired premises.

I think your "holding to the rules of the religion vs the teachings of Jesus, has become universal" is a sweeping generalisation. So is your likening of all Christian ministers to the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes. Of course there are some churches that put religious rules and regulations above the teachings of Jesus Christ, and some Pharisaical pastors/elders, but that doesn't mean that all are.

Hoping2 said:

The only works written against in the bible were the works of the Law. (circumcision, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, tithing, dietary rules, etc.)
If we believe in Jesus, we will do what He says.
That would be, loving God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength; and loving our neighbors as ourselves.
Those addicted to sin, cannot do that.

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Those are things that you should do as a Christian. But you don't have to feel like you have to.

JohnClay said:

BTW I think I originally became an atheist due to logical reasoning. It was based on ideas like Answer's in Genesis's:

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As many who become atheists believe, though I suspect there was more going on and the academic issues were the straw that broke the camel's back.

JohnClay said:

Why Does Creation Matter?

Is creation vital to the authority of Scripture and the gospel, or are we just wasting our time and being divisive—or worse, turning people away from Christ?

answersingenesis.org

Basically about all-or-nothing thinking.

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Answers in Genesis is among the worst examples of theistic belief.

JohnClay said:

In particular it was about the Green River Formation and an ex-creationist showed me information about it and writings involving the issues. There were millions of varves and seemed to show a history of different lake sizes with different kinds of creatures throughout its history.
In high school I said to "God" that I wanted to know the truth, no matter how depressing it was. I guess that meant I was open to atheism at the time. Then I got very strong tingling in my body - one of the only times that has ever happened.

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YEC and other beliefs like that are more about a particular power dynamic than they are about honest faith. It's often a reaction to uncertainty in life, as it gives comfort to think that such simplistic beliefs are true. But the falsehood of YEC doesn't render everything about the Bible false.

Apple Sky said:

Have you ever watched a ship disappear over the horizon ? If so, take a telescope & watch it magically zoom back in to full view. I maybe wrong but I don't think the ancient Greeks had telescopes then.

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But as many people (including me) have said before, that just doesn't happen. If it did, ships would have communicated by morse code using flashing lights and telescopes. Also, if you could see ships beyond the horizon with a telescope, why not other countries? I could have the most powerful telescope in the world, and it wouldn't enable me to see France.

Fervent said:

Personal experience is essential to faith, but it seems to me you're overgeneralizing your experiences. But let's explore this non-obvious reveal dynamic you are talking about, how do you believe it worked on the side of your non-obvious force? How did it manipulate the world so precisely as to deliver you the message you would understand but others wouldn't?

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Like I said I think I'm probably in a simulation. It is a bit like how you can go from text to video in Veo 3. It could say to make all of my experiences seem like plausible naturalism then there could be a prompt to do something that seems meaningful to me even if it could just seem like coincidence to other people.

Postvieww said:

The large favorable response in NY to this communist does qualify as being “so popular “.

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Maybe they were just rejecting the sexual abusing nepo kid lifelong establishment dem politician alternative?

Fervent said:

Well, I don't really share your surprise. There are all manners of people who self-identify as Christians while rejecting key elements.

Generally, it's not a matter of arguments. People rarely make those kinds of transitions based on examining the arguments and weighing them against each other, arguments tend to come after the fact. More often the issues are social and cultural, where intellectual issues come into play is acting like a lawyer justifying a conclusion rather than critically evaluating the arguments from any sort of objective criteria or consistent hermeneutic.

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BTW I think I originally became an atheist due to logical reasoning. It was based on ideas like Answer's in Genesis's:

“Ultimately, the controversy about the age of the earth is a controversy about the authority of Scripture. If millions of years really happened, then the Bible is false and cannot speak with authority on any issue, even the Gospel.”

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Basically about all-or-nothing thinking. In particular it was about the Green River Formation and an ex-creationist showed me information about it and writings involving the issues. There were millions of varves and seemed to show a history of different lake sizes with different kinds of creatures throughout its history.
In high school I said to "God" that I wanted to know the truth, no matter how depressing it was. I guess that meant I was open to atheism at the time. Then I got very strong tingling in my body - one of the only times that has ever happened.

JohnClay said:

When I was in the mental ward I believed I was in a simulation. I believed that the flat earth or Mormonism could be true because they are physically possible in a simulation. But those two events - the upside-down Bible and the Connect 4 set showed me that it seems evidence of God seemed to happen in non-obvious ways - in ways that couldn't be proven to other people. That basically sums up the Futurama God quote. So the world gives the impression that it is just naturalistic. I also had experiences related to Maundy Thursday.

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Personal experience is essential to faith, but it seems to me you're overgeneralizing your experiences. But let's explore this non-obvious reveal dynamic you are talking about, how do you believe it worked on the side of your non-obvious force? How did it manipulate the world so precisely as to deliver you the message you would understand but others wouldn't?

Michie said:

Q: Can you explain the church’s teachings about yoga and reiki? Recently a priest gave a presentation in which he said that, to avoid the devil, Catholics should also avoid things like palm readers and ouija boards. He also mentioned yoga and reiki. I’ve practiced yoga on and off for many years and have found no religious references to it in my practices. My experience has been a western, non-religious practice for strength, deep breathing and calmness. I became familiar with reiki when I had cancer and received reiki treatments. Over recent years, medical practices and hospitals use reiki to help patients with relaxation and pain reduction.

A: First, this priest was absolutely correct in saying that Catholics should avoid things like palm readers, ouija boards or anything else related to the occult. Not only can engaging in such activities open us up to contact with evil spirits, but these activities are also a sin against the first commandment.

Continued below.

What is Church teaching on yoga and reiki?

Explores the Catholic Church’s perspective on yoga and reiki, distinguishing physical practices from spiritual risks with guidance.

www.oursundayvisitor.com

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What about acupressure? I think my priest said it’s ok to do.

MrMoe said:

The most obvious Kafka Trap I’ve seen on this forum.



Argumentum ad ignorantiam
(argument from ignorance).

Basically, your claim relies on the absence of evidence as evidence itself, which is not a valid form of reasoning.



I’m sure you have proof of ice preventing people from doing these things.

From the footage you posted I can see people walking in and around the park areas.



If military simply showing up in public constitutes a perpetual police state to you then America has been a police state for a long time. Well before Trump.

Would you prefer lawlessness be the norm?

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What’s happening here in LA is not normal. If it was lawlessness before ICE showed up then yes, I much prefer that. Things were peaceful here just a few weeks ago.

Apple Sky said:

I've yet to see water, level it's self out on a ball.

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Of course not, because balls (footballs, tennis balls, cricket balls, etc) are all likely to fall to the earth because of their weight, and so is any water one might try to put on them. The weight of the earth does not make it fall to the earth - that doesn't even make sense - but the water is attracted to the earth because of the weight of that water.