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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Trump’s Domestic Use of Military Set to Get Worse, Leaked DHS/DoD Memo Shows: LA "hasn't been perfect" but indicates what's coming "for years to come"

Supreme Court wants more time and information before deciding if Trump can send National Guard to Chicago

The Supreme Court on Wednesday took the rare step of asking for additional briefing in a high-profile, emergency case challenging President Donald Trump’s deployment of the National Guard to Chicago, questioning whether those troops can be used under the federal law at issue to augment immigration officials.

“Although we can’t know for sure, the order certainly seems like a bad sign for President Trump,” said Steve Vladeck, CNN legal analyst and professor at Georgetown University Law Center. “There would be no need for the Supreme Court to ask the parties to address this question if five justices had already agreed to vote for the federal government on one of the other two possible grounds.”

The call for additional written arguments is almost certainly a response to a brief submitted in the case by a Georgetown University Law Center professor, Martin Lederman, who suggested the law Trump is relying on to deploy the Guard to the Chicago area doesn’t apply to civilian law enforcement agencies like Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Rather, Lederman argued, the National Guard can only be called forth under that law to augment regular military forces. In its order Wednesday, the Supreme Court asked the Department of Justice and officials in Illinois to address that very issue in a series of new briefs due through mid-November.
What's your gut feel on this?

Also - what do you make of the mass firing of the top legal / JAG across the military?
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When You Lose Interest In A Series You Once Liked

FIRST - are you OK? Sleeping OK - mood OK? I know we've had our disagreements on climate stuff - but if rewatching shows is something you normally enjoy and now it's "Meh" - the old social worker version of myself hears a red flag.

BUT on the other hand - how many times can we really rewatch a show and get that original buzz?

YET - on the 'gripping hand' (phrase from Mote in God's Eye) - my son turned out to love TOS more than I did! He's watched it 4 times now!

People do change. Societies change. Cultures change. I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe what was once an edgy, thought-provoking Sci-Fi has become tame compared to the speed and pacing of shows today?

When I watched TOS as a kid, I was pretty scared a lot of the time. Part of the appeal! I was even scared of Spock - as he was so strong and had that Vulcan neck-pinch. I was always afraid something was going to mess with his logical self-control and activate his rage - like that planet that had a certain pollen?

Hey - did you like the satire "Galaxy Quest"?
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Trump live updates: President expands ‘narco’ boat strikes to Pacific Ocean as 8th boat is struck

There was this guy called Miranda once. Heard of him? Maybe not. Or maybe you have but don't consider the legal requirements to read the rights to a suspected criminal worth having.

It's that ol' matter of due process. Yeah, I know. Lefty, liberal, tree hugging socialist nonsense. But the thing is my friend, it's what you deserve. It's what you would demand. It's part of what makes each of us glad that we live in civilised societies where those in power have to treat us all equally.

Do you get that last part? I'm not sure that you do. Because as strongly as you would demand those rights for you and yours, you are equally adamant that they can be ignored for others.

It doesn't work that way. There ain't one rule for you and different rules for others. Capice?
Show me where Miranda rights apply to enemy combatants, pirates, or criminals from foreign countries committing crimes in international waters without a nation flag? I will wait. By the way, Miranda rights are only applicable when someone is being questioned or interrogated.
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Causing offence

The Holy Spirit: The Holy Spirit is seen as the primary agent, prompting convictions of sin and desires for goodness that draw people to Jesus.

Conviction vs. Condemnation: Conviction is often described as a loving, guiding force from God that shows one what is wrong and then points to the solution (Jesus). Condemnation, on the other hand, is seen as a message of judgment from the enemy that says God has given up on you and pushes you away from Him.

While the Holy Spirit draws everyone, this drawing is resisted by some.

Grace and salvation: The belief that Jesus, through his sacrifice, offers a gift of salvation and makes believers righteous in God's eyes is a core attraction. (This is the believers main message to the down trodden)

Personal relationship: There is an emphasis on developing a personal relationship with Jesus through seeking the Holy Spirit and abiding in Him.

Believers can and should point someone to Jesus ... the blessed hope.

Also personal testimonies ... can encourage others.

Giving a testimony points others to Jesus by showing how He can transform lives, providing a relatable and personal example of the gospel in action. A testimony inspires faith, offers hope, and serves as a tool for evangelism by sharing a real-life account of God's work and the positive impact of faith on one's life.

Sharing a personal story serves as an invitation for others to ask questions and to have conversations about the gospel and Jesus.
Offers a witness to truth: A testimony is a personal declaration of what someone has experienced, which can be a powerful tool for showing that the stories in the Bible are true and still relevant.

Sure ... there is a lot of evil in the world ... but there still is good. In peoples darkest hours (including our own) we can focus on the heavenly and know it's not always going to be like this ... there is a far far better world coming.

The Holy Spirit is working in the world and will continue to do so until the return of our Lord.

Jeremiah 29:11, "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future". While often applied to individuals today, this verse was originally addressed to the exiles in Babylon during a time of great hardship, promising God's ultimate plan for their welfare even in that difficult situation.

I think maybe you didn't quite get the question...

What is it about believers collectively that non-believers with no bible knowledge might find attractive.

What did Jesus mean in John 17:21?
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B flat B♭

The literal dome of Genesis 1, for example, which is made of solid material - all because there is a verse somewhere which says it is LIKE molten glass?

That's b/c it is, how do you think rainbows or sun dogs appear ?

@ 9:10
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So.....did your insurance premium go up?

You honestly believe that of all things in the American economy, health care costs would not have risen anyway?
Oh I think they would have. But its my underatanding that its outpaced rest of the economy. And there are those who believe that Obama care resulted in a greater increase than would have happened without it.
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The Schumer Shutdown

Provide? I'm sorry, but that's quite the funny thing to say. What did the Republicans do to get those votes? They aren't entitled to them without giving the Democrats something. It's on them to negotiate.
Rhe democrats already accepted the idea previously then changed their minds. The Demorats decided to demand more things then vote no. Thats on them. The chose to shut the government down.
  • Agree
Reactions: Vambram
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Would you get rid of daylight saving time?

It's about more daylight time for activities after one gets home from work.

Which, if you live in some southern states, is useless anyways, since it's so hot and/or humid outside. Thats' why Arizona abolished Daylight Savings altogether.
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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

I hope you don't mind someone else chiming in on your comments. I wanted to offer some detailed food for thought.

John 12:32 occurs within the context of Jesus responding to the report that "some Greeks" desired to see Him (v. 20). The arrival of Gentiles signals that the redemptive focus is widening beyond Israel. Jesus interprets this event as the indication that His "hour" has come: the hour of His glorification through death (v. 23). Thus, when He says He will be "lifted up," He refers to His crucifixion (v. 33).

So when he says πάντας ἑλκύσω ("I will draw all people"), the phrase must be read in light of the preceding Gentile reference and the Johannine theme of universal scope of the gospel, not universal salvation (or the attempt at such). In other words, "all" here does not mean "every individual without exception," but "all kinds of people (Jew and Gentile alike) without distinction." The arrival of Greeks prompts Jesus to declare that His crucifixion will effect a drawing not limited to Jews. The verse, therefore, celebrates the inclusiveness of the atonement's scope (its sufficiency), not the universality of its effect (its efficiency).

In short, the "drawing" of John 12:32 refers to the world-wide proclamation of the gospel, through which all nations are summoned to faith. It is not a statement on the wooing effects of God's work on the hearts of individuals. The text is missional, not soteriological. Christ's cross will be the magnet of gospel appeal to every tribe and tongue.

In contrast, John 6:44 depicts a different kind of drawing. There, Jesus addresses unbelieving Jews who are grumbling over His claim to be the bread from heaven (vv. 41-43). He rebukes them, essentially telling them to knock it off (μὴ γογγύζετε), as if to declare that it is pointless for them to complain. Why? Why not just address their concerns and try to reason with them? He answers: "No one can (οὐδεὶς δύναται) come to me unless drawn," the implication being that they hadn't been, hence the reason for their persistent unbelief. The problem is not that they haven't been invited, but that they cannot believe. The issue is moral and spiritual inability, not ethnic scope.

Same verb as in John 12:32, but its sense differs. In John 6, the "drawing" is effectual; it infallibly results in saving faith. Grammatically, the object of "draws him" (ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν) is the same as the object of "I will raise him" (ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν), both referring back to οὐδεὶς. Thus, while the text explicitly says that the one who is drawn is enabled to come, the grammar also entails that the one who is drawn is the one who comes, believes, and is raised. In other words, the text assumes no distinction between "enabled to come" and "those who do come." It presents man in two categories: those who are unable to come, and those who, being enabled, do so. (More on the grammatical argument for this below.)

So the Father's drawing in John 6:44 is not the external call of gospel proclamation (as in John 12:32), but the internal, regenerative work of grace whereby the sinner's will is made willing (cf. v. 65, which restates v. 44 but replaces the verb with that of v. 37).



This is too soft a definition of ἑλκύω. The lexical range of ἑλκύω is primarily in the realm of "drag" or "haul" (see John 21:6, 11; Acts 16:19; James 2:6). It's a term that expresses decisive action resulting in movement, not gentle persuasion. Even when used metaphorically, as in John 6:44 and 12:32, the same strength of meaning carries through, because the drawing accomplishes its intent. In John 6:44, it accomplishes (at the very least) an enablement to believe; in John 12:32, it accomplishes the worldwide extension of the gospel's appeal. These efforts do not fail. They describe an effectual change of position -- from unable to able to believe (6:44), and from restricted to universal scope in gospel proclamation (12:32). That's the semantic force of ἑλκύω, "draw."



Despite much debate, the syntax of John 6:44 is decisive on this. The main clause, οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ("no one is able to come to me"), asserts total inability. The verb δύναται ("is able") makes ability, not willingness, the issue. The conditional clause, ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ... ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν ("unless the Father... draws him"), introduces the single remedy for this inability: divine initiative. The construction is a present general third-class conditional, meaning Jesus is appealing to a general or axiomatic truth about humanity: mankind as a whole is naturally incapable of coming to Christ, apart from the Father's drawing.

The final clause, κἀγὼ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐν τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ("and I will raise him up on the last day"), is not part of the condition, but its logical consequence. Grammatically, the αὐτὸν ("him") in both ἑλκύσῃ ("draws") and ἀναστήσω ("will raise") refers to the same person. Thus, the one drawn is the one raised. This is easily seen if restating the logic of the verse contrapositively:

"If he is able to come, then the Father [has drawn] him, and I will raise him up."

Who is the one raised? The one enabled to come; the one drawn by the Father. We could say, theologically, that the one raised is the one who actually comes. But what the logic of John 6:44 is declaring is that there isn't a distinction. Jesus assumes no difference between those enabled to come, and those who actually do so. The drawing is effectual -- not in making people into "automatons," but in changing the disposition of their hearts such that the sin they once loved they now hate, and the God they once opposed (Rom. 8:7-8) they are now naturally inclined toward. They will as their heart desires, and their heart desires Christ.

This aligns with verse 37, which says, "all that the Father gives me will come to me." Interestingly, verse 65 restates verse 44, but replaces the verb with that of verse 37. That interchange of ἑλκύω ("draw") and δίδωμι ("give") indicates a paradigmatic relationship between the two verbs within parallel syntagmatic contexts, suggesting that the Father's drawing and giving are conceptually identical acts:

"All that the Father gives/draws to me will come to me."
"No one can come to me unless the Father draws/gives them to me (the one drawn/given will be raised up on the last day)."



These warnings describe those who are exposed to the blessings of God's gospel (tasting, seeing, or experiencing) without being truly regenerated. They illustrate the danger of false profession and the severity of rejecting God's gift. They do not demonstrate that the elect, those whom the Father draws and Christ saves, can finally fall away. The "return to death" is evidence of those who were never truly born of God (1 John 2:19).
Nicely eisegeted.
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Chicago principal claims teacher who made sick Charlie Kirk gesture is the victim

Yes I do.agree with her for the most part. I think a lot of people were over charged.

I also agree with you for rhe most part. I think you and she are a lot closer together than you are apart.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in rehashing J6 again with people. Its been done to death. Id rather stay on topic.
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Resisting the Holy Spirit.

Is there an area you aren't willing to let God be God? In my own journey, I struggled heavily with the idea of judgment and couldn't understand how God could allow people to go to hell simply because of a lack of faith or believing the wrong faith. It took God literally pushing me to my knees and taking my ability to speak for me to relinquish that nd to accept that God's judgment is just, even if I don't understand it. Is there some point you aren't accepting God's authority that may be getting in the way?
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Trump live updates: President expands ‘narco’ boat strikes to Pacific Ocean as 8th boat is struck

I explained my thought in my previous post. I think you are misunderstanding what I meant so I clarified stating that it is a matter of law. You are using it in a broader sense than what I said to claim that until a court rules everything is legal but that is not what I said. I am only speaking about this instance in particular and under these circumstances.


I read the article you quoted and agree that there could be legal grounds in question but none have brought to bear. With our non working government am not sure if any will actually be brought to bear. Trump cited article 2 for his reasoning and no court has challenged that yet. When and if it happens then we’ll know.


Are saying there is some ambiguity in the relevant laws and that it requires a court case to settle the matter?
  • Optimistic
Reactions: DaisyDay
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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Mark 16:16 (NASB95) “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Salvation is based on belief, not on baptism, according to this verse.

Also, the thief on the cross.
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Is purgatory a Biblical or extra biblical teaching?

Mark 9 in context:

42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me [i]to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’​
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’​
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where​
‘Their worm does not die​
And the fire is not quenched.’
49 “For everyone will be seasoned with fire, and every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt. 50 Salt is good, but if the salt loses its flavor, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace with one another.”​
Contextually the verses are quite plainly speaking of hell.
That may be where some get Purgatory, but I think the verse then would've been way over-worked. Cutting off a limb as the price to get into Eternal Life is an hypothetical, and a literary form used to discourage anybody from actually cutting off their limb, which nobody in their right mind would do.

Yes, people sacrifice their lives as martyrs to hold to the faith, as a means of obtaining Eternal Life. But that's not Jesus' purpose here. He is not recommending self-martyrdom, but rather, discouraging the pursuit of anything that deviates from Eternal Life. We are not to do anything with our bodies and limbs if what we do is not done in partnership with the Lord and for His glory.

Nothing to do with Purgatory at all.
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The government shutdown and keeping the government open, or re-opening it, etc. My prediction now.

Im an Independent, first of all, and try to give a 100% neutral, obejective opinion always about these things, and am going to try to give you my prediction right now about this specific subject/thing, etc.

The government shutdown and keeping the government open, or re-opening it, etc. My prediction now.

While it might have been to the Democrats advantage at first politically to not cooperate with the Republicans to keep the government open, I now predict that is now going to change, and very, very soon here, or really, really soon actually, it's no longer going to be their political advantage anymore, and they are actually going to start to lose points now politically, and are going to start to get blamed.

And that's it, or is all I have to say right now really, etc. And so it will now be to their political advantage now to start cooperating with Republicans on re-opening the government now, or keeping the government open now actually, etc.

Guess we'll have to see if my prediction holds true or not actually, etc.

Opinions change when actual Americans start feeling it actually, etc.

God Bless.
Democrats can issue whatever public statements they like, like about the only reason they were resisting at first, and wanted more funding, was because of people's health insurance, and health insurance premiums, and whatnot, which is still going to be a major problem for the American people if they cooperate with Republicans, but at least it will keep everything else funded/going at minimal levels in the meantime. Because it's not at the levels we Democrats would like, but something is still at least better than nothing. We would have continued to resist, as that would still be our preference, because we feel like we would be doing that for the American people, but it's also going to hurt way too many Americans also if we don't cooperate with Republicans right now to re-open the government, or to keep the government at least somewhat open right now, even if it's not at the levels we would like, etc. And even though people's health insurance coverage, and their premiums, is still going to be majorly affected due to lack of government funding, etc.

God Bless.
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