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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Democrats wobble as pressure to end shutdown ramps up

Ironically, by leveraging human suffering. How quaint.
Yes. And Republicans, then, would be complicit in that.
As stated, the human suffering brought on by that budget will be significant. THAT'S on Republicans...if human suffering is ACTUALLY something you care about.

See, Republicans are okay with suffering during the shut dowon AND they are okay with suffering from the outcome of this bill. Frankly, they are fighting for the suffering IN this bill...and those changes would (should) be FAR more long lasting.

The Democrats are willing to have a bit of suffering to negotiate less suffering later.

All this as an aside there is actually several billion in reserve funds that Trump is able to authorize in an emergency like this for SNAP benefits, but he doesn't seem willing to.

Shutdown standoff: Why experts say the Trump administration is sitting on SNAP funds

The party of punishing the poor is at it again. Gee golly.

It's funny reading the Dunning Krugering about economics as people hope that "welfare folks not getting food stamps" will lower the prices of food since supply will be higher.
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Refuting Losing Salvation!

He still allows us to make our own decisions and that includes the decisions that lead us to destruction.
I believe that God's "work" in Christians keeps them in the "desire" of "pleasing" Him (Phl 2:13). If at any time a professing Christian does not want to please God, it manifests He was not in him.
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

The first commandment is about loving God.
Where do you get love from reading the first command? 3 “You shall have no other gods before[ me.
The second, third, and forth expand on that.
Where?
The other six commandments are about how we should treat others.
I agree. The fact is that He did not tell the Israelites to love them. They certainly could have treated them with love. That is what Jesus taught, but the Ten are written so that the Israelites could do that out of duty to their fellow man.
Love is not just an emotion; it is also an act of the will. By willingly doing right by others, we express love in the most basic form. By not doing right by others and God, we are not showing love.
Where do you get that from reading the Ten Commandments Jerry?The Israelites were to love to do the will of God. They were to love their neighbors and do nothing to harm them or
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Can you tell me when God made the heavens and earth , the sea and all that is in them. Are you claiming He made that at Mt Sinai. Any Scripture to support this?
Please post a verse before Moses that shows that people kept the sabbath. Also, since Moses wrote the book of Genesis around the 15th century, how did people before then know that God made the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th?
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

They seem to be very understandable to me. I am sure that if God had wanted to write the Ten as a love message to the Israelites He could have done so.
The Ten Commandments were a love message. Is it not love to teach your children not to take drugs or do any number of other things that are bad for them? God was doing the same thing.
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Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

You're confusing the instrumental cause of salvation ("through faith," Eph. 2:8) with its efficient cause ("by grace," Eph. 2:8). The question is whether fallen man possesses the moral and spiritual capacity to direct faith toward Christ at all, given his hostility toward God (Rom. 8:7-8; 1 Cor. 2:14).

Saving faith is indeed qualitatively distinct from natural belief. The natural man can believe propositions, but he cannot receive the things of the Spirit (1 Cor. 2:14). Faith in Christ does not arise from the old nature's rational faculties; it arises from the new life granted by the Spirit (John 6:44, 65).

Your comments on Phil. 1:29 and Eph. 2:8 ignores the syntax. In Phil. 1:29, τὸ εἰς αὐτὸν πιστεύειν ("to believe in Him") is the very thing "granted" (ἐχαρίσθη). Belief itself is the divine gift. Likewise, in Eph. 2:8, the neuter demonstrative τοῦτο ("this") refers to the entire preceding clause, "by grace you have been saved through faith." The whole reality of salvation through faith is of God, not of human origin.


It actually does. Grammatically, the αὐτὸν ("him") in both ἑλκύσῃ ("draws") and ἀναστήσω ("will raise") refers to the same person. Thus, the one drawn is the one raised. This is easily seen if restating the logic of the verse contrapositively:

"If he is able to come, then the Father [has drawn] him, and I will raise him up."

Who is the one raised? The one enabled to come; the one drawn by the Father.

While it is true theologically that the one raised is the one who actually comes, what the logic of John 6:44 is declaring is that there isn't a distinction. Jesus assumes no difference between those enabled to come, and those who actually do so. The drawing is effectual. It changes the disposition of their hearts such that the sin they once loved they now hate, and the God they once opposed (Rom. 8:7-8) they are now naturally inclined toward.

This aligns with verse 37, which says, "all that the Father gives me will come to me." Interestingly, verse 65 restates verse 44, but replaces the verb with that of verse 37. That interchange of ἑλκύω ("draw") and δίδωμι ("give") indicates a paradigmatic relationship between the two verbs within parallel syntagmatic contexts, suggesting that the Father's drawing and giving are conceptually identical acts:

"All that the Father gives/draws to me will come to me." (v. 37)
"No one can come to me unless the Father draws/gives them to me (and the one drawn/given will be raised up on the last day)." (v. 44)


Again, it actually does. To say otherwise misses both the syntax and theological force of διδακτοὶ θεοῦ ("taught by God"). Jesus is citing Isaiah 54:13, where "being taught by God" is a covenantal promise of divine renewal, parallel to Jeremiah 31:33-34, where God writes His law on their hearts so that "they shall all know Me." In context, it is not a general offer of instruction but a description of the effectual work of God upon His covenant people.

Grammatically, διδακτοὶ θεοῦ contains a genitive of agency with a substantivized predicate adjective. This construction consistently denotes persons passively affected by the action of the genitive noun. Compare ἁγαπητοῖς θεοῦ in Romans 1:7 ("loved by God") and τοῖς ἁγαπητοῖς ἡμῶν in Acts 15:25 ("our beloved"), which describe an objective reality independent of response. The persons are loved; their reaction does not produce that love. Similarly, γεννητοῖς γυναικῶν in Matthew 11:11 ("those born of women") identifies those who have undergone birth, something wholly external to their will. The same pattern appears in θεόπνευστος ("God-breathed") in 2 Timothy 3:16, where the focus is on the divine origin of Scripture, not human participation.

In other words, this grammatical logic essentially conveys the same thing as a compound word: God-breathed, woman-born, God-loved, God-taught. See also actual compounds, σητόβρωτα ("moth-eaten," Jas. 5:2), πατροπαράδοτου ("inherited from forefathers," 1 Pet. 1:18), and ποταμοφόρητον ("swept away by a flood," Rev. 12:15). In fact, Paul actually uses a compound form of the "God-taught" phrase in 1 Thess. 4:9: θεοδίδακτοι.

In every one of these cases, the modifying element marks the agent producing the effect.

In other words, "taught by God" describes not a universal opportunity for instruction, but a divine action that creates the very capacity to come to Christ. It's a metaphor for regeneration, being born again, and directly parallel to "draws" in the prior verse. The subsequent clause, "everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me," simply articulates the necessary consequences of that effectual act. Being taught by God is what ensures coming to the Son.
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And The Father gives to Jesus anyone who believes in Jesus for Eternal Life.

I mean how can anyone believe in a theology, who will not even believe that Jesus paid for and took away all sin for all time for every person who ever lived.
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Trump live updates: President expands ‘narco’ boat strikes to Pacific Ocean as 8th boat is struck

Thats dealing with someone sins against you personally. It also does not deal with the consequences of the sin.
If your husband beats you, you have to forgive him seventy times seven. Do you think then that it absolves him of any consequences?
Your question was how many times should we keep treating addicts, once, twice or what? My answer remains as many times as it takes.

Why you want to make this about me being beaten is beyond me.
Also this scripture doesnt apply to s I ending taxpayer money to help drug addicts and how money we should spend to help them.
Perhaps you prefer Brian Kilmeade's solution of involuntary injection, just kill 'em?
Never use that argument. Its a bad one.
You have not convinced me of that. You twisted it from "the addict is harming himself" to "well, what if he were doing something entirely different that did directly harm someone else?" - talk about bad arguments!
Your husband beating on you doesn't
harm me either. But I would want to stop it because it harms you.
What is this obsession you have with me being beaten?
There is a harm to society as a whole when you are addicted to drugs.
That's an overly broad assertion. Can this addiction be managed? Is it harming anyone other than the addict? The answer will vary depending on the particulars.
Do you think no one is harmed by the drug trade?
Ah, rhetorical question that is not meant to be answered seriously.
I have no problem with our government doing that to drug dealers trying to smuggle poison into our country that has killed millions if us.
Murdering without a trial or due process? So-called smugglers who may not even be heading to our country, just blast them with a missile? Even though it has only killed us because we sought it out , paid good money for it and voluntarily took it? How is this justice?
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President makes historic trip to Asia

Nope. I've seen the proof. I'm just not sharing it with you.
LOL - well nanny nanny boo boo to you too! - so much better than backing your opinion with facts.
Well, yeah, when the claim is that an honor is especially high, it's perfectly valid to look at the conditions under which it's bestowed. It looks like it's handed out to each new SK president and then to various other heads of state whenever the SK president feels like it.
If it was Biden - would you be saying the same? Of course not, but it is Trump and even a nations highest award given in thanks has to be degraded to as close to useless as possible.
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Trump live updates: President expands ‘narco’ boat strikes to Pacific Ocean as 8th boat is struck

Like reducing supply by blowing up narco-terrorist drug boats on open water?
No, that makes the problem worse if you do not reduce the demand. If you reduce the supply then you end both increasing cost at the same time you reduce purity and reliability. A large part of the issue with fentanyl is that you need a specific dosage to be safe and if it has spikes or impurities it becomes more dangerous.
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

Yes, because sin is a deadly disease and if its not exterminated, its going to keep spreading. God's judgments are always based in love, even if we do not understand them.
They seem to be very understandable to me. I am sure that if God had wanted to write the Ten as a love message to the Israelites He could have done so.
The Ten Commandments started way before Moses, according to God. Exo20:11
What makes you think that? Certainly, Ex20:11 is not stating that. How do you take such a verse and completely obliterate it?
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Nobel peace prize nominee restarts nuclear testing

Him wanting to start up nuclear testing or give some "show of strength" again wouldn't be a disqualifier for a Nobel peace prize (if prior winners are any indicator of the "caliber of peacemakers" they give it to)

Yasser Arafat
Henry Kissinger
Gorbachev
Aung San Suu Kyi

...are all former winners if memory serves

I can see where if there'd always been a high bar for peacefulness, decorum, and pacifism from the time of inception through present day, the prospect of Trump's name getting floated for the award would be out of sorts.

However, the awards been given to people who've been notoriously famous for leading terrorist orgs (that committed hijackings and the terrorist attack at the Olympics) and rejecting peace deals like Arafat, and people like Kyi who supported a literal genocide, and end up getting charged by the ICC for that debacle as well as prosecution of journalists.

And then you have others like Al Gore - who didn't necessarily do anything "bad", but whose nomination was a tad puzzling... while one may attach a certain level of virtue to climate advocacy and raising climate awareness, it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that it had much (if anything?) to do with "peace".



Just as an honest assessment, Trump wanting a Nobel for the "Gaza Ceasefire and Israel/Palestine Peace" would place it somewhere in the realm of Kissinger's win. (meaning, a very premature victory)

Kissinger received the Nobel in 1973 for "negotiating peace and a ceasefire in Vietnam"...but the conflict kept chugging along for another 2-3 years after he won -- including several US bombing campaigns. (and the war was finally ended when the bad guys won and Vietnam was re-unified under communist control)


We kind of have to pick our poison here...

Either the award means something, and as much as he's disliked, he's eligible based on the precedents set by prior winners.

Or we just acknowledge that the award itself is kind of a joke...at which point, we can simply say "who cares who won it"
Or, and here me out, maybe the award is almost always given to really great and worthwhile individuals and they've made a few decisions people disagree with.

The KYI one was fascinating to me. Not because she didn't deserve it before she got it (which I don't recall their being very much complaint over), but because of her behaviour AFTER she won it. Talk about trying to undercut a legacy......
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The government shutdown and keeping the government open, or re-opening it, etc. My prediction now.

The shutdown could have been avoided with a clean continuing resolution to keep the government funded at exactly current levels, no cuts and no new spending. Congress could have then addressed all the rest without brinksmanship. But it was not to be.
That requires people to trust that Congress actually would address "all the rest." That trust has been lost over the past couple decades, and the current Republican Party has done nothing to earn it back.
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B flat B♭

The historical-grammatical meaning of raqiya' in Gen. 1:6–8 is very clearly a literally solid firmament.
So that would mean that your verse from Job is wrong.
Job 37:18
Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
As David has said, "Molten" is liquid.
Molten metal or rock is in a liquid state because of great heat:
The sky is not molten rock.
How can a liquid sky be strong?

The verse from Job also suggests that "firmament" and "sky" are different things.
But I said this to you some time ago, and you told me I was wrong. Rockets cannot go very far into the sky, you said, in case they hit the firmament.
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

When Moses was with God and the Israelites were performing debauchery, was it love that God had for them when He told Moses He was going to destroy them?

God had a reason why He formulated the Ten Commandments about duty, and it is not for us to try to change what they meant. They certainly were not portraying love.
The first commandment is about loving God. The second, third, and forth expand on that. The other six commandments are about how we should treat others. Love is not just an emotion; it is also an act of the will. By willingly doing right by others, we express love in the most basic form. By not doing right by others and God, we are not showing love.
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When Jesus Returns, Will We Know It's Him?

If I can doubt that it's actually Jesus, then it's not Jesus.
I agree with you that when Jesus does return, we (the faithful) will recognize Him. But this topic is about whether "you don't doubt that it's Jesus and it's not Jesus?" And maybe not you being the one deceived, but 10's of thousands of our fellow Christians being deceived. Have you thought about how you would convince a possible Christian friend of yours, who is falling for the false Jesus, to see the truth? Look at those rapture videos I posted. How many fellow Christians were fooled. I don't want that. I want everyone who loves Jesus to be saved. I don't want anyone falling for a false Jesus return. And I know many will say here, "Look out for yourself" and I will but I love my fellow Christians so much that I would do my best to help them with the truth.

The way the news and social media has made faithful Christians look like the people in the wrong, many fellow Christians will be blinded to the truth and switch to the wrong side. We need to prepare all Christians for what could happen (the trickery that Satan is capable of using).
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What is your Motivation to Discuss/Debate Things Online?

Here are the main reasons I participate on CF. (I've walked away from other social media platforms, as they don't seem a productive use of my time.)

1. It helps me get out of my bubble. I attend a mainline liturgical Protestant church in the United States, but there are many other kinds of Christians out there. I need to hear other Christian voices.

2. Sometimes people ask informational questions that I have the knowledge to answer.

3. Sometimes people say "The only Christian answer to X is Y", and I step in to say "Actually, some Christians think Y, but others think A, B, C, or D." This is mostly for the benefit of lurkers, who may not realize the breadth of Christian opinions.

4. And sometimes, once in a rare while, someone says something that really does change my perspective on something. It doesn't happen in the closed-minded food-fight debates, but it can happen in genuine, open conversations, which do occasionally occur on CF. Right at this moment, I can recall conversations with @Paidiske , @FireDragon76 , @2PhiloVoid , and @Bradskii that changed my perspective on something, that made me see some issue in a totally different way. There have been other conversations like that on CF that I could remember if I thought for a while longer. These are the moments that make CF the most worthwhile.
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