Where in the Bible is all this stuff?

[FreeinChrist]

Hi Free,



I'm curious about this Free. This is off topic so you may not want to deal with it, but how do you mean meeting our fellow Christians in Heaven? When we are at todays funeral, do you understand the recently departed to be in Heaven with Christ? OR what?

Justme

I believe that when we die, our bodies decay and our spirits go to God. At the Rapture, described in I thes. 4, the bodies of the dead in Christ arise in glorified form, and we who are alive are changed to a glorified body...which correlates to I Corinthins 15. Threfore - Jesus brings with Him the spirits of those who had fallen asleep, and they will be joined to a resurrected, glorified body, and we will be changed and join them in the clouds.
(I tried to color code the passages)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13 But we R152 do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are R153 asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the R154 rest who have no R155 hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even R156 so God will bring with Him those R157 who have fallen asleep in F49 Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by R158 the word of the Lord, that we R159 who are alive and F50 remain until the R160 coming of the Lord, will not precede those R161 who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself R162 will R163 descend from heaven with a shout, R164F51 with the voice of the R165 archangel and with the trumpet R166 of God,and the R167 dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we R168 who are alive and F52 remain will be caught R169 up together with them in R170 the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be R171 with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51-57 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; R661 we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, R662 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the R663 trumpet will sound, and the R664 dead will be raised imperishable, F182 and we R665 will be changed. 53 For this perishable F183 must put on the R666F184 imperishable, and this mortal R667 must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable F185 will have put on the F186 imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH R668 IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O R669 DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death R670 is sin, and the R671 power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks R672 be to God, who gives us the victory R673 through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Justme]

Hi o'Factry,

the rapture occurs at Jesus' second coming at the end of the tribulation. I think this is probably the most important question for Christians. I urge you to study the matter carefully.

What makes you think I haven't?

It is practically impossible to find a church that does not cleave to this doctrine. I have tried

Have you looked outside of the evangelical?

Justme

 

[Justme]

HI Free,


I'm glad you wrote that. I never had the right impression of how you saw this whole thing.

I don't see it quite as you do, but who cares.

Thank you again

Justme

 

[O'Factry]

Hi o'Factry,


What makes you think I haven't?

(studied carefully)
sorry, I had you confused with someone else.

Have you looked outside of the evangelical?

(for a church that is post-trib)

The only church I have found that even comes close to my beliefs was an independant "Church of God". I live in a rural area. Do you know of any other denominations that I have some chance of finding?

I bet I did a poor job with the quote thing. It's new for me.

 

[Whiteknight777]

To all, regarding this topic,

1. The Rapture

I don't believe the word rapture is found in the bible but neither is the word trinity.I believe that the concepts of both can be found in the old and the new testaments.Rapture Some may feel as though this is the resurrection) I feel the two events are the same. Isa. 26:19-20, Matthew 24:29, 1st Corinthians 15:51, Revelation 10:7,1st Thessalonians 4:16,Rev. 16:15,Rev.14:14-16.

2. Seven years of tribulation with the antichrist, maybe some judgments etc.

The seven year tribulation can not be literally interpreted through scripture. It is base on an assumption of the full 70th week of Daniel and is not given as literally spoken of a seven year period of time in all other areas of scripture.

3. second Coming of Jesus -King Jesus is now ruler of the world.
4. Millennium
5. Satan unleashed and final White throne judgment.

I'm not sure what you speak of in the third. I Think that the coming of Christ still is yet to come therefore so is his rule as King over the world. Which involves your next question about the millennium. Christ's second coming is all the same verses as the rapture verses mentioned above. Him coming as King would include. Zech 14:1-21; Zech.6:12-13; Rev.11:15 (become the kingdom of our Lord)Rev.20:4-7.

Hope this helps and I'm open for discussion if it abides within the literal Word of God and not historical evidence. I think if I were stranded on a deserted island, all I would need is the bible to interpret the bible, not the bible and a library of encyclopedias.

I'll get back to the two questions asked later.

Whiteknight

 

[Covenant Heart]

In post 13, we adduce Biblical references witnessing our belief that:

• Christ is the true atonement
• Christ is Abraham’s one, true son
• Believers are Abraham’s true offspring
• Believers are true Zion and Jerusalem
• Believers are God’s holy temple

We support the analogy of faith (Scripture with Scripture) with texts.

Since you reject man-made doctrines, kindly indicate from your texts:

• Which verse in Isa 11 uses the expression, "1,000 years?"
• Which verse in Eze 40-48 uses the expression, "1,000 years?"
• Which verse in Dan 11-12 uses the expression, "1,000 years?"
• Which verse in Zech 12-14 uses the expression, "1,000 years?"
• Which verse in Rom 11 uses the expression, "1,000 years?"

And indicate which verses in Re 20 teach these kingdom distinctives:

• The return of the Jewish people to eretz Ysra’el
• The conversion of the Jewish people
• The rebuilding of Jerusalem and temple
• The restoration of Old Testament worship
• The semi-glorification of Palestine

You need to do two things to establish the analogy that you claim:

• Show a reference to "1,000 years" outside the Revelation passage.
• Show where Re 20 teaches the above named kingdom distinctives.

If you can’t, at least do one; pick the list that works best for you.

Remember, we not only make an analogy–we have texts to support it.

Now show us yours.

Blessings!

Covenant Heart

 

[Lady Goodnews]

I'm glad you wrote that. I never had the right impression of how you saw this whole thing.

I don't see it quite as you do, but who cares.

Justme

Hi Justme,

Please elaborate, on how you see it. Thanks!

Lady Goodnews

 

[Whiteknight777]

Covenant Heart,

Please give the method of hermeneutic used in your exegesis of scripture.

Thankyou,

Whiteknight

 

[Gary777]

To all, regarding this topic,


I don't believe the word rapture is found in the bible but neither is the word trinity.I believe that the concepts of both can be found in the old and the new testaments.Rapture Some may feel as though this is the resurrection) I feel the two events are the same. Isa. 26:19-20, Matthew 24:29, 1st Corinthians 15:51, Revelation 10:7,1st Thessalonians 4:16,Rev. 16:15,Rev.14:14-16.

The word "rapture" is found in the bible, but it isn't defined in the way that we use it always.

The word for rapture in thess. 4:16 is harpazo, an it is found 13 places in NT.
It means to seize, to take by force, to pluck etc.

The places are (726 is the number where "harpazo" apears in the greek)
:
(Mat 11:12) And1161 from575 the3588 days2250 of John2491 the3588 Baptist910 until2193 now737 the3588 kingdom932 of heaven3772 suffereth violence,971 and2532 the violent973 take it by force.726, 846

(Mat 13:19) When any one3956 heareth191 the3588 word3056 of the3588 kingdom,932 and2532 understandeth4920 it not,3361 then cometh2064 the3588 wicked4190 one, and2532 catcheth away726 that which was sown4687 in1722 his846 heart.2588 This3778 is2076 he which received seed4687 by3844 the3588 way side.3598

(Joh 6:15) When Jesus2424 therefore3767 perceived1097 that3754 they would3195 come2064 and2532 take him by force,726, 846 to2443 make4160 him846 a king,935 he departed402 again3825 into1519 a mountain3735 himself846 alone.3441

(Joh 10:12) But1161 he that is a hireling,3411 and2532 not3756 the(5607) shepherd,4166 whose3729 own2398 the3588 sheep4263 are1526 not,3756 seeth2334 the3588 wolf3074 coming,2064 and2532 leaveth863 the3588 sheep,4263 and2532 fleeth:5343 and2532 the3588 wolf3074 catcheth726 them,846 and2532 scattereth4650 the3588 sheep.4263

(Joh 10:28) And I2504 give1325 unto them846 eternal166 life;2222 and2532 they shall never3364, 1519, 165 perish,622 neither2532, 3756 shall any5100 man pluck726 them846 out of1537 my3450 hand.5495

(Joh 10:29) My3450 Father,3962 which3739 gave1325 them me,3427 is2076 greater3187 than all;3956 and2532 no3762 man is able1410 to pluck726 them out of1537 my3450 Father's3962 hand.5495

(Act 8:39) And1161 when3753 they were come up305 out of1537 the3588 water,5204 the Spirit4151 of the Lord2962 caught away726 Philip,5376 that2532 the3588 eunuch2135 (3756) saw1492 him846 no more:3765 and(1063) he went4198 on his848 way3598 rejoicing.5463

(Act 23:10) And1161 when there arose1096 a great4183 dissension,4714 the3588 chief captain,5506 fearing2125 lest3361 Paul3972 should have been pulled in pieces1288 of5259 them,846 commanded2753 the3588 soldiers4753 to go down,2597 and to take him by force726, 846 from1537 among3319 them,848 and5037 to bring71 him into1519 the3588 castle.3925

(2Co 12:2) I knew1492 a man444 in1722 Christ5547 above4253 fourteen1180 years2094 ago, (whether1535 in1722 the body,4983 I cannot tell;1492, 3756 or whether1535 out1622 of the3588 body,4983 I cannot tell:1492, 3756 God2316 knoweth1492 such a one5108 caught up726 to2193 the third5154 heaven.3772

(2Co 12:4) How that3754 he was caught up726 into1519 paradise,3857 and2532 heard191 unspeakable731 words,4487 which3739 it is not lawful1832, 3756 for a man444 to utter.2980

(1Th 4:17) Then1899 we2249 which are alive2198 and remain4035 shall be caught up726 together260 with4862 them846 in1722 the clouds3507 to meet1519, 529 the3588 Lord2962 in1519 the air:109 and2532 so3779 shall we ever3842 be2071 with4862 the Lord.2962

(Jud 1:23) And1161 others3739 save4982 with1722 fear,5401 pulling726 them out of1537 the3588 fire;4442 hating3404 even2532 the3588 garment5509 spotted4696 by575 the3588 flesh.4561

(Rev 12:5) And2532 she brought forth5088 a man730 child,5207 who3739 was3195 to rule4165 all3956 nations1484 with1722 a rod4464 of iron:4603 and2532 her848 child5043 was caught up726 unto4314 God,2316 and2532 to his848 throne.2362

If the rapture is only a "gathering with jesus at his return" and a translation of our bodies, after a resurection from the dead, it will be a rapture of the kind philip experienced in acts 8:39. However an harpazo will occure, or the bible would lie, and no matter how it will look like - it probably will be a lot of fun.

 

[Whiteknight777]

Thank you for your post Gary777,

What you have explained is exactly what I had mentioned in my quote. Harpazo is the concept that I was refering too in the quote you gave from me in your post above.

Thanks,

Whiteknight

 

[Standyman51]

My thoughts:

The millennium is simply the first phase of the eternal kingdom. It is separated this way, because there is a brief interruption, or suspension, in the rule of Christ and the Bride over all nations when Satan (their old sovereign) is released for a brief time to deceive those among them who can be deceived.
This final rebellion allows all who offend in that kingdom to be identified and removed. The "port that takes all this cargo" of OT as-of-yet-unfulfilled prophecies is not so much Millennial but eternal, with this necessary break after the first thousand years of it are completed.

Stan

 

[Iosias]

Guys,

It's dispensational theology. It comes from the idea that the Church is not Israel and Isreal is not the church and th two must never meet. The rapture-1000 year Kingdom-Postponemen theory- Multiple Judgements-Carnal Christian theory ect ect all result from this basic error first introduced in England in the early 1880s. All this was completly UNKNOWN before this. The church has and is enjoying the promises given to the physical nation of Israel becuase we are the True Israel of God. Israel in old testament was just a picture- a foreshadow of the church. We have been inaugrated into the Kingdom of God but the True-final Kingdom of God is the New Heavens and the new Earth.

Barry

It just makes me laugh when I see posts such as these.

We have been inaugrated into the Kingdom of God but the True-final Kingdom of God is the New Heavens and the new Earth.

What about the fact that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are different kingdoms?

 

[Barraco]

The rapture is a touchy issue because it never says anything specific, only that we will 'meet' Christ 'in the air' Now, if in the air, then that would not be Heaven right, because if he is in the air, he is coming to earth, meaning, His Second Coming. And we all know that the end happens at His Second Coming. If Paul wasn't exact, it would be safe to take it literally, since no symbology was implied. Also John states in Revelation that the first resurrection happens after Christ has come, and Paul states that the rapture happens 'after' the resurrection. It would be safe not to 'assume' that Paul is saying we will be taken to Heaven to chill out until the great judgement. We shouldn't twist the Word to give us hope, because its not worth losing your faith over a false sense of hope.

 

[Justme]

Hi AV1611,

What about the fact that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are different kingdoms?

What are you using to show that they are different kingdoms considering these verses which use them interchangeably.

Matthew 11
11I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 7:28
I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John; yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

OR

Matthew 16
28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Mark 9
1And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

Justme

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Av1161

quote
The rapture-1000 year Kingdom-Postponemen theory- Multiple Judgements-Carnal Christian theory ect ect all result from this basic error first introduced in England in the early 1880s. All this was completly UNKNOWN before this.
End Quote

I think you need to do some research before you go making statements like this. It just makes you look foolish as anyone who has studied even a bit knows how absolutely ridiculous that statement is.

The things you say were not taught HAVE BEEN TAUGHT FROM THE EARLIEST DAYS............................it is the A MIL position that came after.

Pre mill was the doctrine of early Christianity...................it was only when people got sick of waiting that they came up with the whole spiritual interpretation.

Your suggestion that there is no Earthly Kingdom is not backed by the Saints they were very clearly waiting for the Kingdom of God to come.

Acts:1:6: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Does Jesus go NO YOU GUYS ARE WRONG……….no he does not he says

7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

He Tells them it is not for them to know when this WILL happen.

Now I will give you some time to do some research and retract that statement before I bring forth the words of the teachers of the Early Church. Prior to 200 AD…………..because the LIE of AMIL begins in about 145 AD.

 

[Standyman51]

Acts:1:6: When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Does Jesus go NO YOU GUYS ARE WRONG……….no he does not he says

7: And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

He Tells them it is not for them to know when this WILL happen.

Amen.
This final question was asked by the disciples (plural), not just one of them. It would appear they agreed to ask this one parting question! Of all things they could have asked, why this, if Israel does not hold a permanent place in the plan of God? As you say, Jesus does not abuse them of their notion, but rather confirms it in His answer in verse 7. These two verses are too little spoken of by the church. I think a major reason for this question was they were eager to assume the 12 thrones, "judging the 12 tribes of Israel" as Jesus had promised them at the last supper.
Stan

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Stan

Yes but Modern Israel is not God's restoration of the 12 Tribes in the land.

Ezekiel 37: is the First resurrection. not modern Israel.

The restoration happens at the first resurrection restored Israel is Holy Jerusalem out of Heaven.

 

[Breetai]

Ask those who are amillennial if they believe in a rapture at any time.

The rapture is going to happen. It's just the way in which the events surrounding which are interpreted differently. Ie., amillennialism sees the 1000 years as a figuative number which represents the period of time between Christ and the second coming(which directly follows the rapture). As well, the 144,000 is also seen as figurative(12x12x1000). It means the entire church.

The main difference between amillennialsim and premillennialism and the like is that many things in amillennialist understanding are taken as figurative while a dispensationalist would take those things as literal.

FYI- amillennialists don't usually use the term rapture.

 

[Breetai]

I have been to funerals in Luthern, Catholic, United Church of Canada...mainstream churches, I guess. In all the years I have never once heard mention of rapture or endtimes in those services. I have not attended reular service in all them so maybe they chat it up there.

You won't hear the word rapture in these churches because it isn't(technically) in the Bible. The concept is. The Bible wasn't written in English. Gary's already explained this stuff.

The second coming of Jesus is mentioned in every single Lutheran service. There is a sermon on the subject only once or twice a year though. There is a sermon on the love of Christ and the resurrection every single service. That's where the main focus should always be; on the gospel(which does include that Christ is returning physically).

Every single Lutheran funeral and wedding that I've been to has the gospel proclaimed during the service.

Lutherans honestly don't worry to much about the specifics of Christ's return. We just acknowledge that He is coming back to judge and that we must be prepared(by believing in Jesus as the risen God).

 

[Justme]

Hi Breetai,

That's where the main focus should always be; on the gospel(which does include that Christ is returning physically).

If it does include where Jesus is returning PHYSICALLY I would appreciate you pointing it out to me. Or do you mean PHYSICALLY as in spirtitually or Heavenly or invisibly?

Justme