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A small rapture?

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John Lamb

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Well, I wouldn't put it quite like that. I mean "Poor saps, stay down there and pay the bill."
Well you said that. However, a tin of any food left in my loft, or anywhere in the house, wouldn’t be a mocking gesture. It is highly likely someone will enter during the Tribulation. Any tins will be accompanied with a sensible, serious message about avoiding the mark of the beast. That could change a person’s future. It would be pointless leaving a load of food supplies though.
 
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Jamdoc

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Amos 8 says after the 6th seal you won't be able to find the word of God anymore, and the parable of the 10 virgins doesn't tell the 5 foolish virgins to come back later.

I just don't get where pretrib get their idea of salvation after Jesus comes, other than forcing it to explain why there are saints being persecuted after their imagined, unscriptural pretribulation poof.
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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Amos 8 says after the 6th seal you won't be able to find the word of God anymore, and the parable of the 10 virgins doesn't tell the 5 foolish virgins to come back later.

I just don't get where pretrib get their idea of salvation after Jesus comes, other than forcing it to explain why there are saints being persecuted after their imagined, unscriptural pretribulation poof.

This is why we must, as Mark 13 says "watch and pray" for ye know not when the time is. The main thing is to look up when the events described begin to come to pass, for your redemption draweth nigh. It's not time to be partying, living in carnal lusts, selfishness, and all the things so many Laodicean churches are doing, thinking it's all gonna be ok.
Watch and Pray. part of watching is being diligent to be found in Christ, repentant, being washed with the water of the word and by the blood of the Lamb. Redeeming the time as the days are evil.
And in Mark 13 He mentions 4 different times he could come, and that we don't know. Evening, Midnight, Cockcrowing, Morning.
Most everyone overlooks that. Meditate on that.
 
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Jamdoc

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This is why we must, as Mark 13 says "watch and pray" for ye know not when the time is. The main thing is to look up when the events described begin to come to pass, for your redemption draweth nigh. It's not time to be partying, living in carnal lusts, selfishness, and all the things so many Laodicean churches are doing, thinking it's all gonna be ok.
Watch and Pray. part of watching is being diligent to be found in Christ, repentant, being washed with the water of the word and by the blood of the Lamb. Redeeming the time as the days are evil.
And in Mark 13 He mentions 4 different times he could come, and that we don't know. Evening, Midnight, Cockcrowing, Morning.
Most everyone overlooks that. Meditate on that.
Well that statement is that it could be at any time of day, it isn't saying He's going to come back 4 times.

There is only one second coming, but I do not believe it is Revelation 19 but rather earlier (as Jesus is already covered in blood in Revelation 19 for one)

But what I mean is that.. this whole "pretribulation poof" and "left behind" hollywood nonsense has this entire belief system that they should leave "rapture kits" and that people will come to faith after millions of people suddenly vanish and they realize 'oh the Christians were right!'

But the bible doesn't paint that picture at all. It paints a picture of Jesus coming back, people being unprepared, and there is no salvation for them after, like it's too late. It's not covered as a "well they just go through the 7 year tribulation" either it's covered as "Jesus will deny knowing you"

Amos 8
8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
Earthquake, sun and moon darkening, lamenting and mourning, it's the 6th seal, the Day of the Lord.
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
After the sixth seal, people cannot find the word of God, nor anyone preaching it.
They'll look for it, they'll WANT salvation
but be totally unable to find it.

Where does this post rapture coming to faith idea come from aside from Hollywood?
 
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returntosender

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I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me! ;)

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antiChristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”
I never read the book long posts but i did yours. I applaud your memorization!. You have a good grasp of things. I wish i was as cleared headed and informed. Keep on keeping on and God bless you:)
 
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Jamdoc

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This confuses me. What must we be prepared for? We've been preparing for years. We won't go with Jesus if we don't see him, what,?
For deception, persecution, and to endure in the faith through it, and when the time comes.. to not be like Lot's wife.
Jesus warned
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

What'd Lot's wife do? She looked back at the life she was leaving behind in Sodom, she was in the midst of escape... and perished.

I can't be exactly sure but that warning makes me think it's possible to end up choosing your life on Earth, not wanting to leave it behind....
and Lot's wife wasn't saved 7 years later.
She perished.
 
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keras

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Be prepared – the Scouts motto!
Most of us are probably not as interested as we should be in end times issues. Perhaps we have no intention of changing our views before the Return of Jesus, or death takes us away from it all. If it turns out that we die before Christ returns, then what is the difference? Would you really want to stand in His presence and admit you were not concerned about the truths taught in His Word? But what if you are still here during the Great Tribulation?

It is clear, from the Bible, that God does want His servants to be aware of His plans and be prepared, physically and spiritually for what must come.
Titus 2:13 tells us what we are waiting for: the glorious appearing of Jesus Christ. His coming will be seen by all, accompanied by a trumpet blast heard around the world. Those who say that there will be a “secret coming” before that event, a “rapture” have no Biblical justification for such a thing to happen. There will be a group, the elect, who will be taken to a place of safety, on earth, during the 3½ year Tribulation period. Revelation 12:6.

The Church will still be on earth when Jesus returns. Otherwise, we would not need to be exhorted to continue with righteous attitudes and activities until He comes.2Timothy 4:1-8, 1 Peter 1:13 & 4:12-13 & 5:1-4, 1 Corinthians 4:5, James 5:7-8, 1 Thess. 3:13, Philip. 1:9-11.

A Scripture passage often pointed to as a “rapture” text is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. But that plainly refers to the Return of Jesus. Paul describes those in Jerusalem ‘rising to meet Him in the air’ Firstly, this is simply a meeting, as He descends, and secondly this seems to be a transportation, similar to what Philip experienced, Acts 8:39

Emphasis on looking for a supposed secret coming of Christ to get His church and take it to heaven before the Tribulation, contradicts the writings of the Apostles and the early church fathers, as well as Jesus: John 18:15 I do not pray that You take them out of this world, but that You protect them from the evil one. And many other scriptures. John 3:13

Any new believer, just reading the Bible, without the ‘benefit’ of church teaching and dogma, would read that Jesus promised to Return to the world in glory, accompanied by His angels – Matthew 16:27. He will come after a period of great suffering – Matt. 24:21-30. He will gather His chosen ones then, to live and reign on earth. Matthew 24:30-31, 2 Thess. 2:1.

It hardly seems possible for anyone to arrive at a rapture, pre, mid or post Tribulation, by independent study of the Scriptures. If this teaching is not set out clearly in the Bible, how did it originate? Investigation into the history of the rapture, indicates that it began in Scotland in the early 1800’s, with the visions of Margaret McDonald and was later promoted in England by Edward Irving, J. Darby and others.

As we are now very close to the time when God will act on earth in order to fulfil His plans for His creation, careful study of Bible prophecy can inform us of end time events, even some timing is given to us. Don’t be one who is ignorant of coming events or worse still, have an apathetic attitude. What will Jesus say to you?

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 There is indeed no single gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for our Lord, Jesus Christ to reveal himself. He will keep you firm to the end without reproach until that Day. It is God Himself who called you to share in the life of His Son and God keeps faith.
 
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keras

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I can't be exactly sure but that warning makes me think it's possible to end up choosing your life on Earth, not wanting to leave it behind....
What popple do choose; is to believe, are false teachings and fables. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
In no way can we choose our destiny. We can either keep strong in our Christian faith and receive our rewards when Jesus Returns, Matthew 16:27
Or; renounce God when what was fondly expected to happen - does not.
 
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RandyPNW

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I never read the book long posts but i did yours. I applaud your memorization!. You have a good grasp of things. I wish i was as cleared headed and informed. Keep on keeping on and God bless you:)
I usually try to stay as brief as possible. But I find that without devoting some time to the story it doesn't come across as well. Thanks for your patience, and your kindness!
 
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returntosender

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Since you've dabbled in all or most can you give a short definition of the choices. I always forget and people throw out a new version.
Pre? Post?, etc. the beast and anti Christ are in there somewhere. Wish someone would devote some time on it as at my age i need something simple. You don't have to but i think coming from you i could believe your version.
 
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returntosender

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Being prepared live your life as a good Christian sounds like most of you are saying. But That's to be expected. Be alert, living as Jesus, should be our guarantee so we shouldn't have to be alert
It's confusing.
Thanks all
 
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Kokavkrystallos

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Well that statement is that it could be at any time of day, it isn't saying He's going to come back 4 times.

There is only one second coming, but I do not believe it is Revelation 19 but rather earlier (as Jesus is already covered in blood in Revelation 19 for one)

But what I mean is that.. this whole "pretribulation poof" and "left behind" hollywood nonsense has this entire belief system that they should leave "rapture kits" and that people will come to faith after millions of people suddenly vanish and they realize 'oh the Christians were right!'

But the bible doesn't paint that picture at all. It paints a picture of Jesus coming back, people being unprepared, and there is no salvation for them after, like it's too late. It's not covered as a "well they just go through the 7 year tribulation" either it's covered as "Jesus will deny knowing you"

Amos 8

Earthquake, sun and moon darkening, lamenting and mourning, it's the 6th seal, the Day of the Lord.

After the sixth seal, people cannot find the word of God, nor anyone preaching it.
They'll look for it, they'll WANT salvation
but be totally unable to find it.

Where does this post rapture coming to faith idea come from aside from Hollywood?

No, I didn't mean He comes back 4 times. But it is saying He could come back any one of those times. Strangely, there are 4 different rapture beliefs: pretrib, mid trib, prewrath, and post trib. All Jesus is saying here is watch and pray for you don't know when He shall come.

Revelation 14:14-20 is the proper place in Revelation:
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Son of Man coming on a white cloud: that's Matthew 24, that's 1 Thessalonians 4, that's Rev 1:7, etc.
 
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John Lamb

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Strangely, there are 4 different rapture beliefs: pretrib, mid trib, prewrath, and post trib. All Jesus is saying here is watch and pray for you don't know when He shall come.
It is difficult to see it will be a pretrib rapture without wisdom, it isn't described in plain language in the Bible. The Lord does emphasise watching and praying to escape all things. Knowing when the rapture and Tribulation will be is specialised knowledge and not really used to evangelise. But if a genuine Christian told a non-Christian the rapture will be anything but a pretrib rapture, the Christian will be raptured pretrib but the non-Christian might be left behind, they might want to see the signs come true during the Tribulation.
 
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Oseas

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Zechariah was speaking of the work of God that was to succeed in rebuilding the temple of the Lord (Zerubbabel and Joshua the priest after 536 BC). The work was led by a couple of anointed figures who in the example of "candlesticks" indicated they had God's holy fire burning in them. They had *fuel!*

So our work will be judged at Christ's Coming by whether we are "anointed" in our work, by whether God's fire is in it. And that is determined by our adherence to the word of God speaking into our lives, showing us what is important and what is not.

That's my take on it. The history of the rebuilding of the temple and Jerusalem is a major lesson in the history of Israel. It took place in a time when the world was controlled by pagans. God's word cannot be stopped. We just have to walk in the word God gives us.
Joshua? Haven't you read? Zechariah 3:3 - Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. Verse 1 - And Satan standing at his right hand.

Zechariah 3:

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,


7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

--------------~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~-----------

Your comment remained in the Old Testament. And now, what does it say about CLANDESTICK in the New Testament?

Revelation 1:12-16

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged Sword(Hebrews 4:12-13): and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Revelation 11:3-6 - short explanation

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, ...


4 These are the two olive trees (SOURCE OF OIL), (Zech.4:3 - And two olive trees by it(by the Church), one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. (JESUS and the Paraclete-the Comfort-John 15:26 and 16:12-15, and also two Covenants – the Old and New Testaments).

and the two candlesticks(the Hebrew /Jewish Church and Gentile Church) standing before the God of the earth.(God of the earth is the Paraclete-the Comfort-John 15:26 and 16:12-15, who is under the feet of the woman-Rev.12:1).
5 And if any man will hurt them(the two clandesticks-the two Churches), fire proceedeth out of their MOUTH, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These
(the two candlesticks) have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy(END OF THE CURRENT DISPENSATION): and have power over waters (OVER PEOPLES, AND NATIONS, AND MULTITUDES OF ALL TONGUES-Rev.17:15) to turn them to BLOOD, and to SMITE the earth with all PLAGUES, as often as they will. - According GOD's WRATH - Revelation 11:15-18 combined with Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 6:14-17- among other biblical references -

Be careful or else get ready
 
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John Lamb

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Joshua? Haven't you read? Zechariah 3:3 - Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. Verse 1 - And Satan standing at his right hand.

Zechariah 3:

And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,


7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.


Be careful or else get ready
I was wearing mud splattered trousers when Christ stood right in front of me on my third Christophany. You remember, He looked at them and said “Ah, I will come back another day”. At the time I didn’t know He was Christ even though the event felt surreal. I thought this man was referring to walking in Glen Helen which was muddy. It was Christ though, He wasn’t referring to me to become clean but giving a word of wisdom and referencing the parched state the ground in the Valley of Jezreel will be on His Second Coming.
 
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Oseas

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I was wearing mud splattered trousers when Christ stood right in front of me on my third Christophany. You remember, He looked at them and said “Ah, I will come back another day”. At the time I didn’t know He was Christ even though the event felt surreal. I thought this man was referring to walking in Glen Helen which was muddy. It was Christ though, He wasn’t referring to me to become clean but giving a word of wisdom and referencing the parched state the ground in the Valley of Jezreel will be on His Second Coming.
But now, He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.Revelation 22:11

JESUS still said: Without are dogs(dogs?Isaiah 56:10-11), and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. Revelation 22:15-16
 
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Jamdoc

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No, I didn't mean He comes back 4 times. But it is saying He could come back any one of those times. Strangely, there are 4 different rapture beliefs: pretrib, mid trib, prewrath, and post trib. All Jesus is saying here is watch and pray for you don't know when He shall come.

Revelation 14:14-20 is the proper place in Revelation:
"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

Son of Man coming on a white cloud: that's Matthew 24, that's 1 Thessalonians 4, that's Rev 1:7, etc.

True, but I see Revelation 14 being the same events as Revelation 6:12-17 as a different narrative rather than Chronologically later. Revelation 6:12-17 and Revelation 7 has the signs like Matthew 24:29-31, including the gathering of the elect.

What I actually see is Jesus coming from heaven, going south (Zechariah 9:14-16, Isaiah 34), then coming back to Jerusalem (7th trumpet and Revelation 16 after the 7th bowl, and shown in Isaiah 63). He only comes from heaven once, but in all the chaos of the trumpets and bowls He takes over kingdoms (why in Revelation 14 He has 1 crown, in Revelation 19 He has many) by Himself, then returns to Jerusalem. Armageddon is the last battle of a campaign.

That is why Revelation 11 has the declaration of the Kingdoms of this world being His, it's the triumphant return to Jerusalem on the white horse (not from heaven, which is on the clouds)
 
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John Lamb

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JESUS still said: Without are dogs(dogs?Isaiah 56:10-11), and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. Revelation 22:15-16
Dogs? Another angel I spoke to had a very effective, alluring Scottish accent and he pronounced them “dawgs”. I quite liked this angel at first who I clumsily assumed was Saint Paul. I had already been acquainted with Paul in a different human form as a supernatural being, he walked by my side for a while. I’m still not sure who this angel was, Satan? He did appear to turn into Satan in later meetings but was still amusing. I wouldn’t want to be a friend though knowing the power he has. Looking at the misinformation Satan fed Muhammad, I can see some did point to the Bible.
 
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RandyPNW

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Joshua? Haven't you read? Zechariah 3:3 - Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. Verse 1 - And Satan standing at his right hand.
I don't see your point? Of course I know about Joshua the priest in the book of Zechariah. It was I who just mentioned him!
Your comment remained in the Old Testament. And now, what does it say about CLANDESTICK in the New Testament?
Yes, I was explaining the 2 lampstands in the OT scriptures. The same symbol does not have to carry the same application in the NT Scriptures. That would be an interpretive fallacy, that a single word carries with it a single application in all places where that particular word is used.

Words used like that are called "technical" applications, such as proper nouns, or names. They have to been designated as such before using the same application elsewhere. "Candlestick," or "lampstand," has no such designation in order to justify carrying the same application from OT to NT.

The word does have a technical application in the Bible, in the sense that it commonly refers to the menorah in the Temple. So it has to do with its designated purpose, rather than its application to a particular person or church. It refers, largely, to the lampstand in the Temple, as opposed to any old "lampstand."

In Revelation we see the figure of "candlesticks" being applied to several church congregations in Asia Minor. The image is applied to them to convey that their purpose is to witness to the light of Christ. It has no special relation to Zech 3-4. And I have no reason to apply Joshua and Zechariah to the 2 "lampstands" in Rev 11.

The fact there are *two* of these witnesses merely indicates that their purpose in being "two" is in confirming a testimony. It is not an element designed to compare the "2 Witnesses" of Rev 11 with the "2 founts of oil" in Zech 4.
 
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