Do the scriptures reveal there will be two different raptures for the saints?

[RandyPNW]

You are conflating the establishment of the earthly Kingdom with the removal of the saints prior to God's wrath beginning on the earth. These two events do not take place simultaneously, but sequentially. Rapture of the bridal family first, then establishment of the earthly Kingdom later on.

No, I'm not, respectfully. I'm not conflating those 2 things.

I find no "removal of the saints prior to God's wrath beginning on the earth," as you suggest, aka the Pretrib Rapture of the Church. There is no Pretrib Rapture at all, although I will admit that the saints never experience God's ultimate Wrath, the punishment of everlasting destruction or removal from God's Kingdom.

The fact we, the saints, are not subject to eternal Hell does not mean the saints are removed from the time of Antichrist's Reign. The book of Revelation teaches otherwise.

So how can I conflate the initiation of the earthly Kingdom of Christ with a Pretrib Rapture of the Church if there is no Pretrib Rapture of the Church in the Bible? I can't!

On the other hand, you create out of nothing a Pretrib Rapture, based on assumptions drawn from parables or symbols that can be interpreted anyway you choose to interpret them. Biblical doctrine must be built on doctrinal statements--not on mere allusions that one can make into any doctrine whatsoever!

Case in point: Pretribbers say that "rapture" of the Apostle John in Rev 4 "proves" a Pretrib Rapture of the Church. There is no doctrinal statement in Revelation stating this.

The only thing we are told here is that John is caught up to heaven to witness future events so that he can tell the 7 churches what the Church should expect in the future. For them it was the expectation that they would have to resist various antichrists in their own time. For the Church at the end of the age it would be the expectation of resisting Antichrist himself.

A common belief, but incorrect. The Olivet Discourse is about the "Parousia" of Christ (verses 3, 27, 37), the same "the Parousia" foretold in the resurrection passages of 1 Cor. 15:23 and 1 Thes. 4:14, and also in 2 Thes. 1.

I didn't say the Olivet Discourse excluded the Parousia. My claim is that what prompted the whole address, and the larger focus of the address, is on the coming destruction of Jerusalem, to be followed by an age-long dispersion of the Jewish People. This is true.

The emphasis was on the need to always be prepared spiritually for divine judgment. It was not to try to guess the date of Christ's Return!

The Olivet Discourse was indeed written for Christians, but at the time of the Discourse the Christians were all Jewish. So this Address is primarily for the Jewish People, specifically those who were Christian. This Discourse detailed the imminent punishment upon the Jewish People as a whole, which would begin in 70 AD.

 

[RandyPNW]

The verse(s) in Thes is describing the means of being raptured. The verse(s) in Cor is describing the transformation from mortal/flesh to immortal/glorification.

The last trump mentioned in the Cor verse(s) is referring to the Jewish tradition at the observance of The Feast/Moed of Trumpets/Rosh HaShannah which occurs at the beginning of their calendar year, the time of harvest.
The last trump speaks of one man who blows a shofar horn, making a series of notes, the last note (the last trump) being sounded at length till the man's lungs can't blow anymore. It is the loudest and longest note. There are videos of it.
That is the 1 Thes 4:16 'trump of God' in connection with the raising of all dead in Christ and an announcing of Jesus-the Bridegroom coming for the b.o.c.-the Bride.

Sorry, I don't base my doctrines on an interpretation of Jewish practices. I base my doctrines on explicit Scriptural statements. One is theology. The other is a questionable way of manipulating things to mean what we want them to mean.

The Second Coming occurs around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles. So this is why there cannot be any so called 'post tribulation rapture'. Since that theology erroneously puts two different feasts together (Jesus coming for the Bride to rapture from the Earth + Jesus returning to Earth with all OT & NT saints) but by calendar they happen at two different seasons of the year.

Don't do this false kind of biblical interpretation.

 

[Jan001]

There will come a time so fearful and deadly, the likes of which have never been seen before since God created Israel as a nation, and beyond that, that if God doesn’t say “enough“ then there will be left not one surviving member of the human race. They will have all killed each other. Even those of their own family. Till no one remains.

I don't think this will happen in the future. The great tribulation already happened in AD 70.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

Sorry, I don't base my doctrines on an interpretation of Jewish practices. I base my doctrines on explicit Scriptural statements. One is theology. The other is a questionable way of manipulating things to mean what we want them to mean.

Basing one's doctrine of explicit scriptural statements requires an agreement with certain Jewish observance understandings. Without that then the Gospel message of Christmas becomes no more than a Gentile Santa holiday, and Easter becomes a time of hunting rabbit eggs to collect in a basket to hatch into chicks or something.

The Christian belief system that we all adhere to is a Judeo-Christian system. Our theological roots are from the Judeo foundation. So of course we are supposed to look at the Jewish practices and see what they tell us, and connect them accurately for understanding of appropriate verses.

The first Jewish feast is Passover.. which Jesus fulfilled by crucifixion on the cross, death, burial and resurrection. Our Gentile observances of Easter come from Passover. Our understanding of freedom from spiritual slavery by the preaching of the Gospel, and became expressed in our American history of the Civil war.

But you say that nothing we believe are to be interpreted from Jewish practices.

To do that is to pick and choose what Jewish Feast we do or don't observe and not therefore incorporate into the appropriate scriptures of the Bible. If we form our doctrines only on what we choose to have them mean, rather than what the Bible says they mean, then we knowingly or ignorantly manipulate verses and remove divine meaning out of them.

Therefore to prevent that we are to make ourselves aware of the meanings of each Jewish moed feast because they are directly offered as guidance and instruction regarding the interpretation of any given scripture.
But any Christian who insists on ignoring the Jewish-Hebrew practices and instead make up a Gentile meaning to a scripture verse, makes their doctrine hopelessly in error... like the interpretation that the 'last trump' in 1Cor.15 and the Rev. last trump verse, are the same thing, which is someone's unverified and unscriptural assumption.

Don't do this false kind of biblical interpretation.

When anyone interprets outside the textual meaning, then it is a false biblical interpretation derived independantly and not in agreement with the given text. The writer's of the OT & the NT, inspired by God, did not teach what you believe.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

My time limit to edit expired so my reply to the last portion is here.

Don't do this false kind of biblical interpretation.

I don't recall that I read how you interpret 1Cor.15. But I've seen many who do put 1Cor.15 with Rev. 'last trump'. Sometimes I refer to things that may have nothing to do with what you believe. Just as you assume from me things that have nothing to do with what I believe.

 

[RandyPNW]

Basing one's doctrine of explicit scriptural statements requires an agreement with certain Jewish observance understandings. Without that then the Gospel message of Christmas becomes no more than a Gentile Santa holiday, and Easter becomes a time of hunting rabbit eggs to collect in a basket to hatch into chicks or something.

It may require that we understand a Jewish background in order to understand Jewish writings. However, theology is theology, and not reading Jewish traditions into non-explicit biblical statements.

But you say that nothing we believe are to be interpreted from Jewish practices.

No, I didn't say that. Read it again. I said biblical theology is derived from *explicit biblical statements* and not from reading into symbolic language what we want to believe it says.

Please don't misrepresent what I said. Interpreting from Jewish marriage practices to construct a biblical eschatology is not doing "theology." Creating a theology based on how we think Jewish feasts correlate to biblical eschatology is not "theological."

Let me give you an example from 2 Thes 2. When Paul says that the Day of the Lord (coming for his Church) will not happen until after the revelation and destruction of Antichrist, that is a theological statement. We should build our eschatology on that explicit biblical statement.

But when we read that Paul had taught previously the Thessalonians regarding a "Restrainer," that is *not* a theological fact we can build our eschatology upon, apart from the fact we know Paul taught the Thessalonians something earlier. It does *not* say who the Restrainer is. There is no explicit statement regarding who the Restrainer is, and any thoughts about that has to built on explicit statements provided elsewhere.

 

[RandyPNW]

My time limit to edit expired so my reply to the last portion is here.


I don't recall that I read how you interpret 1Cor.15. But I've seen many who do put 1Cor.15 with Rev. 'last trump'. Sometimes I refer to things that may have nothing to do with what you believe. Just as you assume from me things that have nothing to do with what I believe.

I typically associate the last trumpet with the 2nd Coming on the last day of the present age. It is the 7th Trumpet in the book of Revelation. It is the Trumpet Jesus mentioned in association with his 2nd Coming. It is the trumpet of 1 Cor 15, as well as the trumpet of 1 Thes 4. All the same....

I'm not taking personal anything you say--just countering with my own vision of these things. Take care....

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

Why do you think that the second coming of Jesus must occur around the time of the Feast of Tabernacles?

Because Jesus must fulfill all of the Jewish Feasts/Moeds.

He has fulfilled the Jewish Feast of Passover by His crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection.

The next to fulfill is the Feast of Trumpets.. involving the raising from the dead, which corresponds to what is commonly called the rapture of the church which ends the Church age.

Then next will be the Feast of Tabernacles.. involving the Second Coming of Christ with the saints, which includes the Messianic Millennium.

Then is the Great White Throne Judgement, then the New Heavens and New Earth.

The Trumpets through the NHNE is collectively spoken of as "The Day of the Lord". Both the apostle Paul and the apostle Peter make that connection.

I think Scripture shows us that the Jewish feast days are not relevant for New Covenant Christians.

Colossians 2:13-17 When you were dead because of the things you had done wrong and because your body wasn’t circumcised, God made you alive with Christ and forgave all the things you had done wrong. 14 He destroyed the record of the debt we owed, with its requirements that worked against us. He canceled it by nailing it to the cross. 15 When he disarmed the rulers and authorities, he exposed them to public disgrace by leading them in a triumphal parade. 16 So don’t let anyone judge you about eating or drinking or about a festival, a new moon observance, or sabbaths. 17 These religious practices are only a shadow of what was coming—the body that cast the shadow is Christ.

In using that scripture, you have just made judgement against my observance of the Feasts. It says don't let anyone judge you about observing those things. But you are using it to indicate that you don't observe those things.

Further more, the practices are only shadow to the Jews who don't know Christ. They are not a shadow to those who do know Christ and see in the Feasts the fullness of Christ.

It seems to me that the second coming of Jesus will come suddenly and without any warning, and this is why we must always be prepared.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 We don’t need to write to you about the timing and dates, brothers and sisters. 2 You know very well that the day of the Lord is going to come like a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, “There is peace and security,” at that time sudden destruction will attack them, like labor pains start with a pregnant woman, and they definitely won’t escape. 4 But you aren’t in darkness, brothers and sisters, so the day won’t catch you by surprise like a thief. 5 All of you are children of light and children of the day. We don’t belong to night or darkness.

The apostle Paul is speaking (vs.1-2) to the believers of the Jews and the world who don't know Christ, therefore they are the they who will not be raptured when that time for it occurs. There is also a mention of His coming like a thief concerning one of the seven churches mentioned in Rev.2-3.

The phrase 'labor pains upon a pregnant woman' corresponds to what the Jews know of as "The time of Jacob's trouble".. a.k.a. the time of what is commonly called the seven year tribulation.

And they definitely won't escape.. corresponds to what Jesus said during His Earthly ministry. "Pray that you may escape what is coming..."

Paul then switches to address believers in verse 4-5. Which means that there's a difference between what the Jews and the world experience, and what the believers experience. We who are the children of light will not experience what those of the night and darkness will experience.

They will not escape, but we will escape that sudden series of destruction that is like birth pangs upon a pregnant woman.

The following events will occur at the last or final trumpet:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 What we are saying is a message from the Lord: we who are alive and still around at the Lord’s coming definitely won’t go ahead of those who have died. 16 This is because the Lord himself will come down from heaven with the signal of a shout by the head angel and a blast on God’s trumpet. First, those who are dead in Christ will rise. 17 Then, we who are living and still around will be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet with the Lord in the air. That way we will always be with the Lord.

John 5:27-29 and he has given him authority to execute judgement, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and will come out—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus is there speaking of the good who will be raised up/resurrected after the rapture and lived and died during the seven year tribulation, while the evil will go to the Great Throne Judgement. The good and evil are the nations, not the church or the saints.

John 5:27-29 corresponds with Mat.7 concerning the judging of the false prophet, among others who did evil.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

This last trump corresponds to the observance of the Feast of Trumpets which pertains only to believers in connection with the verses in 1Thess when all believers are caught up to be with the Lord.. and does not at all connect with the last trumpet of Revelation, nor of the resurrection unto the Great White Throne Judgement which only pertains to the unsaved nations and those that are evil to be judged. None of them are changed from having a flesh body to a glorified body like the believers are.

53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:

‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’
55 ‘Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?’
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 1:14-15 It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘See, the Lord is coming with tens of thousands of his holy ones, 15 to execute judgement on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.’

Yes. John the Baptist thought that was what Jesus came to do to all who were less than righteous, like the Pharisees and Saducces (the Tsadeek ones). John was thinking just like many Jews did, thinking that the Messiah would be a warrior Moses or Joshua or David type.

When Jesus comes again at His second appearing, He will then hand over His kingdom to His Father.

1 Corinthians 15:20-25 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

These verses give a basic duckies in a row lineup of events. Verse 22 refers to all the church age. Verse 23 Paul jumps backwards to start with Jesus Himself. Verse 23b Paul jumps forward to refer to all the church age. Verse 24 refers to the end of the 7 year tribulation. Verse 25 refers to the Messianic Millennium.

Presently, Jesus is reigning in heaven along with His saints, and He will reign there with them until He returns to earth accompanied by them at His second coming. 2 Timothy 2:10-13

We are the saints on Earth who're not yet with Him, we are the body of Christ on the Earth through whom Jesus reigns as we find out and do His will that His Kingdom come, His will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

We are the Bride whom Jesus the Bridegroom will come for to be caught up with Him/raptured to be with Him forever.

Luke 22:69 'But from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.’

According to a verse in Ephesians we are in a spiritual sense already seated with Him in the Most High heavenly place. When the rapture occurs, we will then literally be with Him in heaven sitting with Him in His throne.

When the Second Coming occurs we are the saints who accompany Him back to Earth, and reign with Him in His Earthly Kingdom of the Messianic Millennium.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

It may require that we understand a Jewish background in order to understand Jewish writings. However, theology is theology, and not reading Jewish traditions into non-explicit biblical statements.

We shall disagree on what constitutes an explicit or non-explicit biblical statement.

No, I didn't say that. Read it again. I said biblical theology is derived from *explicit biblical statements* and not from reading into symbolic language what we want to believe it says.

The shofar horn that blows a long and loud 'last trump' note is not 'symbolic language' but directly corresponds with Paul's phrase. The Jews have kept their moed practices since they were introduced in the OT and practiced into the recordings of the epistles and even today. They are similar to what it says of Jesus being the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

In fact during the Messianic Millennium the Jewish practices will be required observance for Gentiles as well as the Jews. All should get used to it now, or then.

Please don't misrepresent what I said. Interpreting from Jewish marriage practices to construct a biblical eschatology is not doing "theology."

There are practices within the Jewish marriage that reflect upon Judeo-Christian theology. The parable of the wise and foolish virgins directly corresponds with eschatological theology.

Creating a theology based on how we think Jewish feasts correlate to biblical eschatology is not "theological."

It is not creating a theology that isn't there. But recognizing how Jewish practices correspond with certain scripture verses. It's a matter of Jewish theological practices, and the Christian theological practices. So yes, it's all theological.

Let me give you an example from 2 Thes 2. When Paul says that the Day of the Lord (coming for his Church) will not happen until after the revelation and destruction of Antichrist, that is a theological statement. We should build our eschatology on that explicit biblical statement.

Paul says that the Day of the Lord which comprises the events from the end of the church age (the event of His coming as taught in 1 Thes.) all the way through other highlight events up to the New Heaven and New Earth. Peter confirms it.

The coming for His church is the only time when the antichrist will be revealed until then he is being restrained from appearing before his time to appear. Your description crunches up all the highlight events into an unidentified lump from which you somehow focus on generally rather than explicitly. Therefore yours is not an accurate theological statement.. I agree with you on one point. You should build your eschatology on A explicit biblical statement.

But when we read that Paul had taught previously the Thessalonians regarding a "Restrainer," that is *not* a theological fact we can build our eschatology upon, apart from the fact we know Paul taught the Thessalonians something earlier. It does *not* say who the Restrainer is. There is no explicit statement regarding who the Restrainer is, and any thoughts about that has to built on explicit statements provided elsewhere.

Paul said "you know who the restrainer is." But Paul didn't come right out and indicate to us who it is. Granted, he didn't say it plainly enough for some who are slow to catch on.

Yet Paul did indicate who when he states that the church is caught up to be with Christ. Then in the same chapter, just a few verses away, Paul states that the lawless one appears. He mentions it twice. And some still miss what he's saying.

When the cat's away, the mice do play.

The pattern repeats in Revelation. The apostle John representing the body of Christ is called up to heaven in chapt.4, then in chapt.6 the lawless one, the son of perdition, the antichrist, arrives on the scene.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

The editing timer is too short.

Yet Paul did indicate who when he states 1Thes. that the church is caught up to be with Christ. Then in the 2Thes.2:7., when he who restrains is taken out of the way.. Paul states that the lawless one appears. He mentions it twice vs 3,8. And yet some still miss what he's saying.

 

[RandyPNW]

We shall disagree on what constitutes an explicit or non-explicit biblical statement.

Apparently. You are on dangerous ground.

The shofar horn that blows a long and loud 'last trump' note is not 'symbolic language' but directly corresponds with Paul's phrase. The Jews have kept their moed practices since they were introduced in the OT and practiced into the recordings of the epistles and even today. They are similar to what it says of Jesus being the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I don't need an unhealthy dose of Jewish tradition to understand how the Bible uses the trumpet. Zephaniah makes it pretty clear that it can be a major, international judgment, a divine announcement of world judgment.

Zeph 1.3“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
4 “I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all who live in Jerusalem...
14 The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.
15 That day will be a day of wrath—
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness—
16 a day of trumpet and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the corner towers.

In fact during the Messianic Millennium the Jewish practices will be required observance for Gentiles as well as the Jews. All should get used to it now, or then.

I don't agree. The symbolic reference to acknowledgement of Jewish feasts is simply a recognition of Israel's wilderness journey towards inheriting the Promised Land. It is recognition of the State of Israel.

OT rituals are gone in the NT era. We now have non-biblical traditions like Easter and Christmas, but not Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles. No Sabbath, no dietary constraints, no Jewish Law, except that the morality that lay behind the Law continues forever.

We were created in God's moral image. That doesn't change.

There are practices within the Jewish marriage that reflect upon Judeo-Christian theology. The parable of the wise and foolish virgins directly corresponds with eschatological theology.

The parable of the wise and foolish virgins contained symbolism that more appropriately applied during the era of Law. That's when Israel looked more like servant girls than virgins betrothed for marriage. We must now apply the same truths in the NT era, using NT symbolism.

It is not creating a theology that isn't there. But recognizing how Jewish practices correspond with certain scripture verses. It's a matter of Jewish theological practices, and the Christian theological practices. So yes, it's all theological.

It is *not* theological in terms of explicit statements made by the Holy Spirit in Scriptures. As Walter Martin used to say (famed anti-cult expert): God doesn't lisp when He wants to say something. He just comes out and says what He wants us to know. (paraphrased)

Paul says that the Day of the Lord which comprises the events from the end of the church age (the event of His coming as taught in 1 Thes.) all the way through other highlight events up to the New Heaven and New Earth. Peter confirms it.

It's interesting how you have to go to lengths to explain what the Bible says more simply. It is a reference to Christ's coming for the Church--not all of the explanation you have to add on behalf of your theological position.

The coming for His church is the only time when the antichrist will be revealed until then he is being restrained from appearing before his time to appear.

But that's not what is said. It is said that Christ *cannot come for the Church* until AFTER Antichrist is revealed, and then destroyed. That is, Christ's Coming is to destroy the Antichrist on behalf of the Church!

I agree with you on one point. You should build your eschatology on A explicit biblical statement.

But you seemed to have already disagreed with that? Please explain?

Paul said "you know who the restrainer is." But Paul didn't come right out and indicate to us who it is. Granted, he didn't say it plainly enough for some who are slow to catch on.

What an insult! Paul didn't remotely suggest that those who don't understand 2000 years later are "stupid!" He had *privately* relayed information that we have to decipher using care and wisdom.

Yet Paul did indicate who when he states that the church is caught up to be with Christ. Then in the same chapter, just a few verses away, Paul states that the lawless one appears. He mentions it twice. And some still miss what he's saying.

I have no clue what you're claiming is being explicitly said here in reference to the Restrainer?

The pattern repeats in Revelation. The apostle John representing the body of Christ is called up to heaven in chapt.4, then in chapt.6 the lawless one, the son of perdition, the antichrist, arrives on the scene.

As I said, you can read into symbolism whatever you wish to believe.

 

[Jan001]

Because Jesus must fulfill all of the Jewish Feasts/Moeds.

I think the Feast of Tabernacles was fulfilled by Jesus' atoning death on the cross and by His resurrection from the dead, when Jesus embodied the Way, the Truth, and the Life for all mankind.

It was at the Feast of Tabernacles that the Israelites, who had returned to rebuild the temple, gathered to celebrate under the leadership of Joshua and Zerubbabel (Ezra 3). .........It was also during this Feast that Jesus said, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water” (John 7:37–39). ....The Feast of Tabernacles takes place on the 15th of the Hebrew month Tishri. This was the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar and usually occurs in late September to mid-October. The feast begins five days after the Day of Atonement and at the time the fall harvest had just been completed. It was a time of joyous celebration as the Israelites celebrated God’s continued provision for them in the current harvest and remembered His provision and protection during the 40 years in the wilderness. From: What is the Feast of Tabernacles / Booths / Sukkot? | GotQuestions.org​

​

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

Because of Jesus' sacrifice, we now receive salvation through baptism, the living water, which forgives all our sins.

John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ Matthew 28:18-20

He has fulfilled the Jewish Feast of Passover by His crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection.

The next to fulfill is the Feast of Trumpets.. involving the raising from the dead, which corresponds to what is commonly called the rapture of the church which ends the Church age.

Then next will be the Feast of Tabernacles.. involving the Second Coming of Christ with the saints, which includes the Messianic Millennium.

Then is the Great White Throne Judgement, then the New Heavens and New Earth.

The Trumpets through the NHNE is collectively spoken of as "The Day of the Lord". Both the apostle Paul and the apostle Peter make that connection.

I think the only feast left to fulfill is the Feast of Trumpets which will be the last trumpet at the end of time. This is when everyone is raised from the dead.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We are living in the so-called millennium right now. It is the time period between Jesus' first coming on earth at His incarnation, and will end at His second coming to earth at the end of time.

In using that scripture, you have just made judgement against my observance of the Feasts. It says don't let anyone judge you about observing those things. But you are using it to indicate that you don't observe those things.

Paul was instructing the Gentile believers to disregard the Judaizers who were insisting that Gentile converts to Christianity become converts to Judaism in order to be saved. Some believing Jews kept insisting that the Gentile Christians observe the customs of the Jews: circumcision, feasts, new moons, and sabbaths. Paul instructed the Gentiles to not pay any attention to these Judaizers.

The apostle Paul is speaking (vs.1-2) to the believers of the Jews and the world who don't know Christ, therefore they are the they who will not be raptured when that time for it occurs. There is also a mention of His coming like a thief concerning one of the seven churches mentioned in Rev.2-3.

The only so-called rapture is at the end of time: the dead bodies will rise first and will reunite with their spirits, which are in heaven, and then they will come with Jesus at the last trumpet, and the believers who are alive on earth will then rise to meet them in the air. The final judgment, aka the white throne judgment, aka the judgment of the sheep and goats, will then begin shortly.

This is the one and only so-called rapture and it occurs at the end of time:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

The phrase 'labor pains upon a pregnant woman' corresponds to what the Jews know of as "The time of Jacob's trouble".. a.k.a. the time of what is commonly called the seven year tribulation.

And they definitely won't escape.. corresponds to what Jesus said during His Earthly ministry. "Pray that you may escape what is coming..."

The Great Tribulation began three and a half years before the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

Jesus stated that all of these things would come upon "this generation."

Luke 21:32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Link: "this generation"

When the Second Coming occurs we are the saints who accompany Him back to Earth, and reign with Him in His Earthly Kingdom of the Messianic Millennium.

After the second coming occurs, Jesus will then publicly judge all people. As soon as the judgment is finished, Jesus will hand over His kingdom to His Father. Jesus is reigning in heaven right now with His saints and He will remain there with them until the time of His second coming.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

I think the Feast of Tabernacles was fulfilled by Jesus' atoning death on the cross and by His resurrection from the dead, when Jesus embodied the Way, the Truth, and the Life for all mankind.

The atoning death of Christ occurred on the Feast of Passover and fulfilled it.

The Feast of Tabernacles coincides with the Second Coming of Christ at the end of what is commonly called the 7 year tribulation which is outlined in detail in the book of Revelation.

It was at the Feast of Tabernacles that the Israelites, who had returned to rebuild the temple, gathered to celebrate under the leadership of Joshua and Zerubbabel (Ezra 3). .........It was also during this Feast that Jesus said, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water” (John 7:37–39). ....The Feast of Tabernacles takes place on the 15th of the Hebrew month Tishri. This was the seventh month on the Hebrew calendar and usually occurs in late September to mid-October. The feast begins five days after the Day of Atonement and at the time the fall harvest had just been completed. It was a time of joyous celebration as the Israelites celebrated God’s continued provision for them in the current harvest and remembered His provision and protection during the 40 years in the wilderness. From: What is the Feast of Tabernacles / Booths / Sukkot? | GotQuestions.org​

​

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

Because of Jesus' sacrifice, we now receive salvation through baptism, the living water, which forgives all our sins.

John 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink.

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’ Matthew 28:18-20

I think the only feast left to fulfill is the Feast of Trumpets which will be the last trumpet at the end of time. This is when everyone is raised from the dead.

The Feast of Trumpets occurs before the Feast of Tabernacles.. ask GotQuestions.org.

Revelations speaks of those resurrected to live through the Messianic Millennium. None are raptured up to heaven. So it's not the Feast of Trumpets that includes the raising of the dead and being glorified along with those who remain alive to also be glorified then both groups be caught up to go to heaven with Jesus before the 7 year tribulation.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

1 Corinthians 15:52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We are living in the so-called millennium right now. It is the time period between Jesus' first coming on earth at His incarnation, and will end at His second coming to earth at the end of time.

The church age has so far lasted for 2 thousand years. That makes the 7 year period going over the 1,000 mark that you said.

Paul was instructing the Gentile believers to disregard the Judaizers who were insisting that Gentile converts to Christianity become converts to Judaism in order to be saved. Some believing Jews kept insisting that the Gentile Christians observe the customs of the Jews: circumcision, feasts, new moons, and sabbaths. Paul instructed the Gentiles to not pay any attention to these Judaizers.

Those in Galatia didn't pay attention to what Paul said.

The only so-called rapture is at the end of time: the dead bodies will rise first and will reunite with their spirits, which are in heaven, and then they will come with Jesus at the last trumpet, and the believers who are alive on earth will then rise to meet them in the air. The final judgment, aka the white throne judgment, aka the judgment of the sheep and goats, will then begin shortly.

You are crushing two separate events into one event. There are distinct differences that you haven't noticed. You are only noticing those things that might be similar about the two. And you put those mushed together events to occur after the Messianic Millennium. Which ignores the two separate moeds of God, the Feast of Trumpets and the Feast of Tabernacles. They occur at different days of the calendar year.

So they are not the same at all. Does GotQuestions do what you do with those two separate events?

This is the one and only so-called rapture and it occurs at the end of time:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

The Great Tribulation began three and a half years before the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

The Great tribulation is mentioned in the book of Revelation as an event that hasn't happened yet.

Jesus stated that all of these things would come upon "this generation."

Luke 21:32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Read the other gospels concerning it. Such as Matt.24. The generation that sees all that Jesus mentions means that once it starts, there is no other prophetic thing that will usurp it's progress until all is fulfilled.

Those in 70 AD didn't see all that Jesus said would happen. They didn't see the Day of the Lord. Which includes the end of the church age, They didn't see anything spoken of in the book of Revelation to yet come to pass.

Link: "this generation"


After the second coming occurs, Jesus will then publicly judge all people. As soon as the judgment is finished, Jesus will hand over His kingdom to His Father. Jesus is reigning in heaven right now with His saints and He will remain there with them until the time of His second coming.

Yes. How can you in one sentence say that all things happened in 70AD, and we are in the Millennium, and in another sentence say that Jesus is in heaven now?

Because none of what Jesus spoke of in Luke 21:32 has happened yet.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The verses of 23-27 is an outline of coming events in their sequence. Paul wrote it, and John in the book of Revelation confirmed it. The way you talk of events is not in line with what Paul and John wrote.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

Apparently. You are on dangerous ground.

I don't need an unhealthy dose of Jewish tradition to understand how the Bible uses the trumpet. Zephaniah makes it pretty clear that it can be a major, international judgment, a divine announcement of world judgment.

Zeph 1.3“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,
4 “I will stretch out my hand against Judah
and against all who live in Jerusalem...
14 The great day of the Lord is near—
near and coming quickly.
The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter;
the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.
15 That day will be a day of wrath—
a day of distress and anguish,
a day of trouble and ruin,
a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness—
16 a day of trumpet and battle cry
against the fortified cities
and against the corner towers.



I don't agree. The symbolic reference to acknowledgement of Jewish feasts is simply a recognition of Israel's wilderness journey towards inheriting the Promised Land. It is recognition of the State of Israel.

OT rituals are gone in the NT era. We now have non-biblical traditions like Easter and Christmas, but not Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles. No Sabbath, no dietary constraints, no Jewish Law, except that the morality that lay behind the Law continues forever.

We were created in God's moral image. That doesn't change.

The parable of the wise and foolish virgins contained symbolism that more appropriately applied during the era of Law. That's when Israel looked more like servant girls than virgins betrothed for marriage. We must now apply the same truths in the NT era, using NT symbolism.

It is *not* theological in terms of explicit statements made by the Holy Spirit in Scriptures. As Walter Martin used to say (famed anti-cult expert): God doesn't lisp when He wants to say something. He just comes out and says what He wants us to know. (paraphrased)

It's interesting how you have to go to lengths to explain what the Bible says more simply. It is a reference to Christ's coming for the Church--not all of the explanation you have to add on behalf of your theological position.

But that's not what is said. It is said that Christ *cannot come for the Church* until AFTER Antichrist is revealed, and then destroyed. That is, Christ's Coming is to destroy the Antichrist on behalf of the Church!

But you seemed to have already disagreed with that? Please explain?

What an insult! Paul didn't remotely suggest that those who don't understand 2000 years later are "stupid!" He had *privately* relayed information that we have to decipher using care and wisdom.

I have no clue what you're claiming is being explicitly said here in reference to the Restrainer?

As I said, you can read into symbolism whatever you wish to believe.

You are the one that uses symbolism, not me. You are the one who believes whatever you wish, not me. I've demonstrated the correct use of exegesis, while you haven't.

There's no point in discussing any further. This ends my participation.

 

[Jan001]

The Great tribulation is mentioned in the book of Revelation as an event that hasn't happened yet.

Because none of what Jesus spoke of in Luke 21:32 has happened yet.

The verses of 23-27 is an outline of coming events in their sequence. Paul wrote it, and John in the book of Revelation confirmed it. The way you talk of events is not in line with what Paul and John wrote.

The Great Tribulation occurred in the first century AD.

Jesus was speaking of His own generation. All that He prophesied came to pass in that generation. Jesus was not talking about a generation thousands of years in the future.

Luke 21:32 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things have taken place.

I recommend David B. Currie's book, What Jesus Really Said About the End of the World. He explains this topic a thousand times better than I ever could.

 

[WilliamLhk]

No, I'm not, respectfully. I'm not conflating those 2 things.

I find no "removal of the saints prior to God's wrath beginning on the earth," as you suggest, aka the Pretrib Rapture of the Church.

Incorrect. I show POST-trib, pre-wrath. The Trib is not the wrath, as pretribbers claim.

There is no Pretrib Rapture at all...

Correct.

The fact we, the saints, are not subject to eternal Hell does not mean the saints are removed from the time of Antichrist's Reign. The book of Revelation teaches otherwise.

Revelation doesn't ever mention the word antichrist; why do you ?

 

[RandyPNW]

Incorrect. I show POST-trib, pre-wrath. The Trib is not the wrath, as pretribbers claim.

Correct.

Revelation doesn't ever mention the word antichrist; why do you ?

Well, now I'm very confused as to what we're arguing and whether we're arguing? I suppose I'll have to revisit the conversation.

I don't have a huge problem with Pre-Wrath. It's cousin to my own Postrib position. My point is that the "Tribulation Period" is not "God's Wrath," as many Pretribbers claim. It would not take God very long to pour out His final wrath upon mankind. It certainly wouldn't take 3.5 years or 7 years, whatever your position on the length of Antichrist's reign.

Why do I use the term "Antichrist." It's because John used the term, and to me he obviously equated that term with the Little Horn of Dan 7. The book of Revelation also equates the Beast, both system and person, with the Little Horn and 4th Beast of Dan 7.

Since John recognized that the Little Horn would oppose God, His saints, and His Kingdom, he called the Man of Sin "the Antichrist." He stood opposed to the coming of the Son of Man from heaven to install God's Kingdom on the earth. See Dan 7 and the Son of Man.

Incidentally, the only "Tribulation Period" I can locate in the NT Scriptures is in Luke 21, where Jesus defined it as a period of "Jewish Punishment." It began with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and ends at the coming of the Son of Man. So, this "Tribulation Period" will ultimately include the Reign of Antichrist, but certainly is not synonymous with it.

 

[T.i.m.o.t.h.y.]

The Great Tribulation occurred in the first century AD.

Jesus was speaking of His own generation. All that He prophesied came to pass in that generation. Jesus was not talking about a generation thousands of years in the future.

Luke 21:32 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all things have taken place.

I consider these non-debate forums on Bible topics to be un-official debates, because that seems to be the position that involved discussions take.

Your eschatology is preterism, or partial pret.. that all things have already happened in the past, which does not jive with history much less with biblical prophetic events.

I am pre-millennial, pre-trib. Not because I listened to a prophecy teacher, but because I read my Bible.

Yes Jesus was indeed speaking about the future. The future generation that all things shall happen. It was well after 70AD that Jesus gave the Revelation of future events that coincide with what Jesus spoke of in Mat. capts 24-25, and he reiterated some and revealed more details to the apostle John while he was on the isle of Patmos.

Lk.21:32 is misinterpreted by preterists, ignoring that those things Jesus said would take place in the generation that would see it, but did not take place, as preterists claim, at the time of the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70AD.

Except for the blossoming of the fig tree (the return of the Jewish people to the land of Israel- 1948), those many endtime events that Jesus said will happen have not happened even yet. The generation that saw the return of the Jews to Israel, plus a second similar event when the Berlin Wall fell that released many Jews to also return to Israel.. This generation will see all of the prophetic events that Jesus taught.

This sort of thing I already pointed out in my previous post but you have reposted the same eschatological errors to me.

That would be like trying to sell me a zircon when I already have a genuine diamond.

I recommend David B. Currie's book, What Jesus Really Said About the End of the World. He explains this topic a thousand times better than I ever could.

Since you recommend to me a book when I have not in any way indicated that I'm interested in switching my eschatology, nor did I request a book recommendation.. I will return the sentiment and recommend to you eschatological teachings from pre-millennial endtime events prophecy teachers. Such as Bill Salus, Thomas Ice, Bill Koenig, Chuck Missler, etc. They have articles online plus they've published many books on the topic that you could chose from and purchase.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Well, now I'm very confused as to what we're arguing and whether we're arguing? I suppose I'll have to revisit the conversation.

I don't have a huge problem with Pre-Wrath. It's cousin to my own Postrib position.

Pre-wrath is a post-trib doctrine. Post-trib is not limited to a single version.

My point is that the "Tribulation Period" is not "God's Wrath," as many Pretribbers claim.

Agreed; they claim this without any evidence to back up their claim, because there isn't any. One of many unsupportable presumptions made by pre-tribbers.

It would not take God very long to pour out His final wrath upon mankind. It certainly wouldn't take 3.5 years or 7 years,

Here we disagree significantly. The whole era [all 7 trumpets and all 7 bowls] will take 40 years, just as it did during the Exodus, and also in the corresponding 40-year period of testing of the Jews between the resurrection of Christ and the Jewish War.

...whatever your position on the length of Antichrist's reign.Why do I use the term "Antichrist." It's because John used the term, and to me he obviously equated that term with the Little Horn of Dan 7. The book of Revelation also equates the Beast, both system and person, with the Little Horn and 4th Beast of Dan 7.

Disagree. The Little Horn is not the Beast, but will only be its "mouth"/spokesman. Horns are men; beasts are fallen angels.

Since John recognized that the Little Horn would oppose God, His saints, and His Kingdom, he called the Man of Sin "the Antichrist." He stood opposed to the coming of the Son of Man from heaven to install God's Kingdom on the earth. See Dan 7 and the Son of Man.

The Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition comes BEFORE the Parousia of the Lord, and is destroyed at that Parousia. 2 Thes. 2:8 The latter-day Little Horn and Beast both come AFTER the Parousia.

 

[RandyPNW]

Pre-wrath is a post-trib doctrine. Post-trib is not limited to a single version.

Yes, I'm just pointing out the distinction between your Postrib and my Postrib--I'm not Pre-Wrath. Not saying I'm right--it's just where I'm at presently.

Here we disagree significantly. The whole era [all 7 trumpets and all 7 bowls] will take 40 years, just as it did during the Exodus, and also in the corresponding 40-year period of testing of the Jews between the resurrection of Christ and the Jewish War.

Okay, that's your view. I would need something more explicit to determine a specific time period.

Disagree. The Little Horn is not the Beast, but will only be its "mouth"/spokesman. Horns are men; beasts are fallen angels.

Yea, we disagree on this. My view is that the Beast can be viewed as both an individual king and an entire Kingdom. My sense is that when we try to decipher Revelation we need to go back to its roots in Daniel. And there we find the 4th Beast, which I believe to be Rome, will encompass all of Europe, East and West, and will be led by an individual called "the Little Horn."

But inasmuch as the Beast is said to have 7 heads and 10 horns I interpret that to mean that the Beast Empire will include 10 nations and 7 leaders--3 leaders will be overthrown.

The Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition comes BEFORE the Parousia of the Lord, and is destroyed at that Parousia. 2 Thes. 2:8 The latter-day Little Horn and Beast both come AFTER the Parousia.

Well, that's very different from my position. Dan 7 sets the scenario for me and has the Son of Man return with the clouds to destroy the Little Horn, his Empire, and to establish God's Kingdom on the earth. We'll have to come to our own conclusions.