A small rapture?

[Oseas]

Meditation that brings us to Psalms 45, especially Psalms 45:6-7

Speaking of JESUS (Ps.45:6-7)--> In Hebrews 1:8, GOD the Father says unto the Son: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the Sceptre of thy Kingdom. (It will LITERALLY be fulfilled from now on: Revelation 11:15 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16 about the archangel Michael who comes first, comes before JESUS in LITERAL fulfilment of Daniel 12:1-3 and Revelation 12:7-12)

Hebrews 1:7- And of the angels he saith: Who maketh His angels winds/spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire. (Ps.45:3-5 refer to the archangel Michael:-->
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty (O Valiant), with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. (Re.19:9-And he saith unto John- Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto John, These are the true sayings of GOD. 10 And I-John- fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant,and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship GOD: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy)

5 Thine arrows(Revelation 6:2) are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.(Revelation 11:15)

Revelation 11:16-17
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before GOD on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped GOD,
17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord GOD Almighty, which art,and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,and hast reigned (1Corinthians 15:24-27 and 51-55-Take a look)

Revelation 11:18-And the nations were(WILL BE) angry, and thy WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.

The Word is GOD, self-executing

Be careful or else get ready

 

[Jamdoc]

So if we have no connection to Jacob, why would one think that we are part of Jacob's trouble?

Revelation 12:17

The woman that gave birth to the man child (Christ) that can be persecuted by Satan after Satan is cast down to Earth... is Israel (no it's not Mary specifically, as she's in heaven, unassailable by Satan on Earth).

Christians, are described as the rest of the woman's offspring/seed.

 

[Guojing]

Revelation 12:17

The woman that gave birth to the man child (Christ) that can be persecuted by Satan after Satan is cast down to Earth... is Israel (no it's not Mary specifically, as she's in heaven, unassailable by Satan on Earth).

Christians, are described as the rest of the woman's offspring/seed.

That passage has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.

 

[Oseas]

Revelation 12:17

The woman that gave birth to the man child (Christ) that can be persecuted by Satan after Satan is cast down to Earth... is Israel (no it's not Mary specifically, as she's in heaven, unassailable by Satan on Earth).

Yes, Revelation was written decades after JESUS birth, and JESUS said or revealed to John by His angel, indeed an archangel-Revelation 19:10, that it was shew and written unto His servants things which must come to pass (exclusively the future things that would /will happen and they are described from Revelation 4 to 22).
At the same time, JESUS sent also 7 letters adressed to the 7 Churches of Asia, which were under the satanic influence of the apostate and idolater Church of Rome developed by the Apostle Paul, and now, around year 95AD, the Church of Rome was the embryo and cradle of the satanic Antichrist. John explains so well how was the Church of Rome in his universal epistle -1John 2:18-19. Take a look.

OTOH, the woman that gave birth to the man child is not Mary, of course, Mary had died after the crucifixion of JESUS, and now she is waiting the resurrection that will occur now in this last Day, the seventh and last Day or in this current time-1Thessalonians 4:v.16 and 15 combined with John 11:24, and MAINLY John 6:38-39: JESUS said: -> 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of Him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last Day.

You said "Mary is in heaven": are you a follower of the apostate Roman Catholic Church? It's is of the idolatry invented by the Beast of sea having seven heads and ten horns(whose body belongs to the red Dragon(Revelation 12:3and9,take a look), and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. This religious and satanic MONSTER is the satanic RELIGIOUS structures of the RCC in whole world of Devil, which rides upon the Beast of sea.

MARY IS NOT IN HEAVEN. She is waiting the resurrection of this current last Day, the seventh and last Day. The prophet Hoseas said: "After two Days(2000 years) will He revive us: in the third Day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight-Hosea 6:2, take a look. Hallelujaaa!

The man chaild is not JESUS, but Michael, in LITERAL fulfillment of Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1Thessalonians 4:16 (the voice of the archangel Michael) and Revelation 12:7-17 combined with Revelation 11:15-18.
Be careful and get ready

Christians, are described as the rest of the woman's offspring/seed.

Have you ever read Revelation 7:1-17 combined with Acts 14:22, among other biblical references? The Word is GOD, self-executing, understand?

 

[JoyAlton]

Yes, I've been aware of these arguments for many years, but I'm very glad you're bringing them back! Thanks much.

Well, there's good Premill arguments against this position, but for now, I'm happy that you're Postrib! I'm not Dispensational, but neither am I Amillennial, though I was raised with that in mind. I'm not ultra-dogmatic about Premillennialism, but for now, that's the position I hold to.

Thank you. I haven't read the book, and I may check it out. But to be honest, I've been refuting Pretrib Doctrine since about 1977. So I don't know what more I can learn about it? Thanks anyway. Take care...

If you understand me correctly, I no longer embrace any kind of Dispensational rapture theory. I simply believe there will be the second coming of Christ. I will admit, one thing I don't have a clear understanding of yet is which verses (OT & NT) refer to the time leading up to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and which ones refer to the end times. From all I've read, it's a both/and proposition eg. the Roman Emperor Nero, who had both Paul and Peter martyred, fits perfectly into the label of anti-Christ since his name, using Roman letters and numbers = 666. However, the NT also tells us there have and will be many anti-Christ. At this point, my understanding is, perhaps, there will be a final anti-Christ and the end of time. I may have to re-read David Currie's book. now that I know more now. BTW, David has rejected all 3 theories ie. pre, mid and post-trib rapture. I guess, if one would relate the idea of a post-trib to the second coming, then I could go along with that. I honestly have not considered what Dispensationalist think will happen to the church in a post-trib scenario especially concerning the 7 years Christians would be removed from the scene. I will say this, that the understanding the ancient church has concerning this topic is 180 degrees from what the John Darby crowd theorized. God bless

 

[WilliamLhk]

The connection of Christians with Jacob, is in his name that God gave Jacob after he was an overcomer: Israel.

Correct. Which is why the use of Jacob, not Israel, in "the time of Jacob's trouble" is a message that these people were not overcomers at the time of the Parousia of Christ. Rather, they are post-trib Jews that must go through the 3-1/2 times of Daniel 7 etc.

 

[keras]

Avoid reading the NIV and you will realized that Galatians 6:16 does not allow you to conclude that you are Israel.

Read Galatians 6:14-16 in any Bible and see that Paul is talking only to Christians.
Thinking there are two peoples of God, is quite wrong and only done to suit the false theory of a pre-trib rapture.

 

[keras]

Correct. Which is why the use of Jacob, not Israel, in "the time of Jacob's trouble" is a message that these people were not overcomers at the time of the Parousia of Christ. Rather, they are post-trib Jews that must go through the 3-1/2 times of Daniel 7 etc.

You have a wrong belief of end times. Have you not read how the Jews will be punished and only a remnant will survive? Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, + A general Jewish redemption is never said to happen.

The Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language, belonging to each of the 7 Church types, are the true Israelites of God.

 

[RandyPNW]

If you understand me correctly, I no longer embrace any kind of Dispensational rapture theory. I simply believe there will be the second coming of Christ. I will admit, one thing I don't have a clear understanding of yet is which verses (OT & NT) refer to the time leading up to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and which ones refer to the end times.

I may be able to help you with that. But no, I never indicated any confusion about your believing in a Dispensationalist Pretrib Rapture!

From all I've read, it's a both/and proposition eg. the Roman Emperor Nero, who had both Paul and Peter martyred, fits perfectly into the label of anti-Christ since his name, using Roman letters and numbers = 666.

Yes, I see Nero as a prototype of Antichrist, but not Antichrist himself. For one, the book of Revelation was likely written *after* Nero had died! But the number was also associated, in that time, with the 1st Roman emperor, simply to indicate that the Antichrist will be a product of imperial Roman culture. It wasn't designed to identify a specific person in the future. It's like saying that the Antichrist will be a Roman emperor--not a specific individual like Nero or Hitler.

However, the NT also tells us there have and will be many anti-Christ. At this point, my understanding is, perhaps, there will be a final anti-Christ and the end of time. I may have to re-read David Currie's book. now that I know more now. BTW, David has rejected all 3 theories ie. pre, mid and post-trib rapture. I guess, if one would relate the idea of a post-trib to the second coming, then I could go along with that. I honestly have not considered what Dispensationalist think will happen to the church in a post-trib scenario especially concerning the 7 years Christians would be removed from the scene. I will say this, that the understanding the ancient church has concerning this topic is 180 degrees from what the John Darby crowd theorized. God bless

Thank you. I agree. But I do think the Dispensationalists were right to resurrect early Premillennialism. They did get the idea of doing so from Ribera and Lacunza, directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously.

And despite the fact they, ie R and L, were Catholics attacking the Protestant Church they were right that the Antichrist is future--not past and not present. Irving directly drew upon Lacunza. I don't think either Irving or Darby knew they were Catholics!

I do believe there have been strong elements of antiChristianity in the Catholic Church, which I know sounds insane! However, some Popes were really horrible, and some of them started a vey bad tradition that is sectarian and divisive among Christians. The Catholic Church is *not* at the top of an organizational Christian hierarchy! Carnal politics should never have infiltrated the Christian Church!

 

[Guojing]

Read Galatians 6:14-16 in any Bible and see that Paul is talking only to Christians.
Thinking there are two peoples of God, is quite wrong and only done to suit the false theory of a pre-trib rapture.

Do you know what the connecting "and" in Galatians 6:16 KJV means in English?

 

[Jamdoc]

That passage has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.

When you force a separation that biblically is not there as hardcore dispensationalists do perhaps, but biblically what are people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ?

 

[Guojing]

When you force a separation that biblically is not there as hardcore dispensationalists do perhaps, but biblically what are people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ?

You do understand that the entire Bible is not about you, or referring to you all the time?

You are not the ONLY one who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

 

[Jamdoc]

You do understand that the entire Bible is not about you, or referring to you all the time?

You are not the ONLY one who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

It is one body, and one tree that we are grafted into. the natural branches are broken off in unbelief, but they can be grafted back in.
That is the picture of Romans 11.
It is not 2 separate bodies.
not 2 separate trees
it is 1 tree (Christ), and we are only branches.

Dispensationalists essentially set up Hindu caste systems in heaven, and it's revolting.
I find it absolutely disgusting what you guys do with it, setting up tiers of believers and putting yourselves on top.
I vomit at that belief system, because it is so offensive to the word of God.

 

[keras]

Do you know what the connecting "and" in Galatians 6:16 KJV means in English?

'and' is not there in my Revised English Bible.
Even if it was, that still does not mean that Paul is talking to 2 separate peoples. He says: ALL who have this principle for their guide......

How is it that you and many others fail to see the 20+ Prophesies which tell of the virtual demise of Judah?
How is it that you think God will redeem a people group who have rejected Jesus for nearly 2000 years? They cursed themselves and God won't forget it. Matthew 27:25

 

[Guojing]

'and' is not there in my Revised English Bible.
Even if it was, that still does not mean that Paul is talking to 2 separate peoples. He says: ALL who have this principle for their guide......

How is it that you and many others fail to see the 20+ Prophesies which tell of the virtual demise of Judah?
How is it that you think God will redeem a people group who have rejected Jesus for nearly 2000 years? They cursed themselves and God won't forget it. Matthew 27:25

Physical circumcision remains necessary for the Israel of God, James confirmed it with Paul in Acts 21:18-25, that is why we know the Israel of God cannot be referring to the Body of Christ in Galatians 6:16.

 

[keras]

Physical circumcision remains necessary for the Israel of God, James confirmed it with Paul in Acts 21:18-25, that is why we know the Israel of God cannot be referring to the Body of Christ in Galatians 6:16.

You ignore Romans 2:29....who a real Jew is. That is: an Israelite of God, circumcised of the heart. By believing and following Jesus.

Disaster is decreed:
Jeremiah 11:6-8 The Lord said: Proclaim the terms of the Covenant to Judah. I gave solemn warning to your forefathers, obey Me – I told them. But they did not obey, so I brought upon them all the penalties that I had warned about.
Both Israel and Judah were exiled from the Land, as punishment for their sins. Jeremiah 2:1-13

Jeremiah 11:9-14 The Lord says: Now, the inhabitants of Judah and the citizens of Jerusalem conspire against Me, both the House of Israel and the House of Judah have gone back to the sins of their forefathers. Therefore, I am about to bring upon them a disaster from which they cannot escape. They may cry to Me for help, but I will not listen. Do not pray for these people, for I will not listen to them when they call to Me in the hour of their disaster.
Those Jews in Israel and the rest of the Israelites scattered around the world, who refuse to acknowledge and obey the Lord, will not be protected in “the hour of disaster”.

Jeremiah 11:15-17 What right have My people to be in My holy place, with their sinful ways? Can any sacrifice or offering atone for your evil ways and ward off the disaster that threatens you? Now, you will feel sharp anguish, once you were His holy people, now, with the roar of a mighty storm, He will burn up and consume you. The Lord, who had planted you has decreed disaster for both the House of Israel and the House of Judah because of their evil ways, provoking His anger.
‘burn up and consume’ - The coming fire judgement, prophesied over 70 times. Isaiah 30:26, 66:15-17, Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7,+

Jeremiah 12:14 These are the words of the Lord about all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land which I allotted to My people Israel, as their holding: I shall uproot them from their places and I shall uproot the House of Judah from among them.

Jeremiah 21:14 I shall punish you as your deeds deserve, I shall kindle a fire in your Land, it will devour everything around it. Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
Luke 19:27 But as for those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me for their King, bring them hear and slaughter them in my presence.
Jesus Himself will oversee the demise of the Jews and the few Christian Jewish survivors will be so ashamed they will never open their mouth again. Ezekiel 16:63

There will be NO general Jewish redemption. That idea is just made to support the false rapture theory.

 

[Jamdoc]

No insults, humour. Scripture says it better, Isaiah 3:9 “The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.”

Like you're absolutely full of misconception of what post trib or pre wrath say, what the wrath of God is, what tribulation is, etc.
anyone seriously post trib who reads their bible is not expecting to rely on themselves or prepping to get them through. It's a reliance on Jesus.
Jesus said in Mark 13 and Luke 21, that you're not even to premeditate on what testimony you'll give. But the Holy Spirit will give you testimony.

Mark 13

9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Luke 21

12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

and the overcoming of tribulation is not through bodybuilding or prepping
Revelation 12

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[Oseas]

The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Mat.5:5 -Blessed are the meek:for they shall inherit the earth.

Re.5:10 -And hast made us unto our GOD kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

John 17:15 - I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.

Jo. 17: 16&11- 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one,as we are.

Jo.17:6-8 & 18

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy Word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

24 Father,I will that they also, whom thou has given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou has given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world. 15 I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil.

Revelation 11:15-19

15 ...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,and to the saints,and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of GOD opened in heaven... (The Temple of GOD now is the true Church of the Lord, the body of Christ-John 2:19 combined with Hose 6:2 and 2 Corinthians 6:16, that SAY: --> for ye are the Temple of the living GOD; as GOD hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their GOD, and they shall be my people.)

----------

What my Lord JESUS said is that ' they which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels (Example: Genesis 19:1-4. Take a look); and are the children of GOD, being the children of the resurrection.

And Paul Apostle revealed: Philippians 3:20-21
20 For our conversation is in heaven(heaven? Ephesians 1:3-8. Take a look. Are you in heaven or not? Or you don't know?); from whence also WE LOOK for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall CHANGE OUR VILE BOVY(this is not a magic, this is a process, it is(will be) worked) that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the WORKING whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

And Paul said more: 1 Corinthians 15:24-27 and 51-55:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the Kingdom to GOD( Revelation 11:15-18), even the Father; when he shall have PUT DOWN ALL RULE AND ALL AUTHORITY and POWER.

25 For JESUS must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all BE CHANGED, (not by magic, but a process)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (in the last seven years of this world of Devil- Revelation 11:15 and 18.Take a look), at the last Trump (1Thessalonians 4:16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3.Take a look):for the Trumpet shall sound (Revelation 11:15) and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (not by magic, but a process)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread is closed for review. There already has been a small clean up of posts that are flaming and those that respond to them. ​