A small rapture?

[RandyPNW]

I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me!

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antiChristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

 

[John Lamb]

I never informed you on your mentalhealthforum. Those two dogs that Paul accompanied at Millennium Oakwood, you remember, one had one eye, they were both a golden colour. I asked my sister if they looked the same breed since they did to me. One was a rescue from Tenerife, the other from Cyprus. My sister who knows more about dogs than me said the one-eyed “street dog” from Cyprus had more Terrier in him.

Before last Christmas, I thought it was Paul I was speaking to at that pole that always reminds of the cross. He seemed warm and friendly and for a couple of seconds my glasses misted over (supernaturally I believe), I looked up at the cross and they cleared. I thought he was being funny about his gold coloured shar pei needing a face lift so I laughed. He looked seriously at me. But seriously, is everyone going to be looking up if they know a day the rapture is going to take place.

 

[Jamdoc]

I was taught a Pretrib Rapture in the early 70s by friends and the church I began to attend. But I had been raised in church from birth where no such thing ever existed. Since this was new to me, and held by all my new Christian friends, I thought Pretribism was the way to go.

Hal Lindsey had written a book called "The Late Great Planet Earth," and was taking the "world by storm." Lindsey was out of Dallas Theological Seminary, I believe, where they all taught Dispensationalism, which contains Pretrib Doctrine.

So I watched the movies that depicted Christians suddenly disappearing, leaving their cars and planes unattended, and maybe even leaving their clothes behind. And the world "left behind" seemed caught unprepared and unaware of what just happened.

So the world came up with some idea to explain how so many people ended up disappearing--perhaps an alien invasion? And they then proceeded to become terribly ungodly and antichristian since the Christians of the world had gone away, leaving backsliders and pagans in charge.

Not long after becoming Pretrib my brother started harping on me about the need to memorize Scripture. He had participated in Bill Gothard's course on Bible memorization and wanted to pass that on to me. After preaching to me for a half hour or so I decided maybe I should try to memorize some Scripture.

To my surprise memorization came easy for me. Before I knew it I had memorized a few entire books of the NT. 1 John, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were were I started. I probably memorized half of the book of Revelation before I got a stopped doing this.

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!* He said that the Rapture cannot take place until Antichrist is actually destroyed at the Coming of Jesus! And in his time Antichrist had not come yet.

From this point on I've been Postrib. I had a moment of doubt when I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s, after reading Chuck Smith's Commentary on the Revelation. But after some unusual circumstances I was led, I believe, back to full acceptance of Postrib Doctrine, and determined never again to doubt what my 2 eyes are telling me!

I say all this to explain this post. I still believe a Rapture will happen. But will it have the same strange phenomena happen as with the Pretrib scenarios, with people disappearing and the world left trying to explain where people went? This seems all so mythical to me, so fable-like! I'm a bit embarrassed to present the Gospel with things so unlikely, though the resurrectiton is equally a miracle but far more likely in my thinking.

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

If so, the Rapture may be more of an unseen event, as though happening when most of the world is hunkered down in bomb shelters during a nuclear war, rather than driving cars and piloting planes. If you look at the account of Elijah's "Rapture" he is even searched for, being that the event is far more subtle than a large-scale disappearance.

Perhaps the real Rapture will be confined to much smaller numbers in a time when religion is on the way out, and born again Christianity is so marginalized that it is no longer part of the mainstream? This may be a ways off, but the way things are going now I can see it happening. Large groups of Christians are being exposed as frauds, and antiChristianity is taking over the world, pushing true Christians out of the way. Your thoughts?

2 Kings 2.9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?”
“Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” Elisha replied.
10 “You have asked a difficult thing,” Elijah said, “yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not.”
...16 “Look,” they said, “we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley.” “No,” Elisha replied, “do not send them.”

If you read 1 Thessalonians 4 (the most agreed upon "definitive" rapture passage) it doesn't seem like a surprise poof at all, but a very noisy overt event. the Lord coming down from heaven with a shout, and a trumpet and the voice of an Archangel. When Jesus described it in Matthew 24, it involved the sun and moon darkening, a meteor shower, and coming down in power and glory... and all the tribes of the Earth mourned. 2 Thessalonians 2 again connects the rapture with Jesus coming down from heaven, essentially what has to be argued is not a pretribulation rapture so to say, but more accurately, a pre second coming rapture... and the bible simply doesn't teach one. It teaches a second coming rapture.
that Jesus comes down from heaven (the second coming), all the tribes of the Earth mourn, know it's the Day of the Lord, the dead in Christ are resurrected, and the living are raptured.
There simply is no pre-tribulation poof prior to the second coming. The rapture is part of the second coming itself.

If you go to Revelation 6 with that understanding, it starts to become clear. The 6th seal and Revelation 7 matches the signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24:29-31. The sun and moon darken, the stars fall (meteors we now know not the stars which are well, they'd consume the earth if one were to hit us and their gravity would rip the entire planet apart), and the people on earth mourn and try to hide knowing that it's the Day of the Lord. There's no coverup story or alien abduction needed. The people know what happened, that the Lord's wrath is come upon the Earth.
... and then there are people in heaven praising God.
It isn't a flash forward. It fits what Jesus said. Sun and Moon darkening, tribes of the Earth mourning, and the elect gathered... and they're said to have come out of great tribulation. The Tribulation is over at that point. everything that follows isn't tribulation. It's something else.

That all said, Jesus said the days would be shortened or no flesh would survive, and He wasn't talking about unbelievers surviving, most of them get cut down after He returns anyway. Jesus comes to not only rescue the redeemed but to execute judgement on the unbelievers who persecuted the redeemed. The 5th seal asks how long until this happens, so it hadn't been happening until that point.
Jesus was talking about believers, about the elect. If Jesus had let the persecution of the Great Tribulation to continue, the wicked will kill all Christians. Jesus comes earlier to prevent that, so that some people are spared death.
It could be only 1 person who is caught up without dying for all we know.

So in that sense it could be a small rapture. But it won't be a secret rapture.
No sudden poof leaving a pile of neatly folded clothes on the ground with people wondering what happened... but a very overt unmistakable 2nd coming of the Lord, with people mourning.. knowing that Jesus came back in wrath.

 

[Unqualified]

I never informed you on your mentalhealthforum. Those two dogs that Paul accompanied at Millennium Oakwood, you remember, one had one eye, they were both a golden colour. I asked my sister if they looked the same breed since they did to me. One was a rescue from Tenerife, the other from Cyprus. My sister who knows more about dogs than me said the one-eyed “street dog” from Cyprus had more Terrier in him.

Before last Christmas, I thought it was Paul I was speaking to at that pole that always reminds of the cross. He seemed warm and friendly and for a couple of seconds my glasses misted over (supernaturally I believe), I looked up at the cross and they cleared. I thought he was being funny about his gold coloured shar pei needing a face lift so I laughed. He looked seriously at me. But seriously, is everyone going to be looking up if they know a day the rapture is going to take place.

hi John I remember you from mental health forum. I was TyFence. Still rebuking demons?

italk of the rapture is meant to be encouraging, faithful Christians will get to go…and soon.

 

[JulieB67]

In the process of memorizing 2 Thessalonians I realized that Paul was teaching *against Pretribism!*

Exactly. I was taught the pretrib rapture in the 70s as well when I was growing up in my church. And my Dad had the Hal Lindsey book.

But years later when I started studying for myself and read the bible I saw that is was not biblical and like you Paul was teaching against it, not for it. He even states do not be confused by his first letter and some were and are still to this day.

But as the rest, I look at it as the second coming, all eyes on him, world wide event.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I'm wondering if maybe the real Rapture will be unlike how the Pretrib movies portray it? Jesus said that when he comes will he find faith on the earth? This means that though Nominal Christianity is ubiquitous and common, genuine born again Christianity will not be so apparent, and may not exist as such except in dark corners of the earth.

You are certainly correct that the common understanding of the rapture as portrayed in the Pretrib movies is incorrect. All mankind is appointed to die the one time, and after that, the judgment, as Hebrews 9:27 said. The common misperception of the rapture event forgets this one-time death appointment for ALL men - even the saints. Only resurrected individuals were to take part in the rapture event. Those who were "alive and remain" being caught up in the rapture were those who had been already made alive by the resurrection process - such as those Christ and His Apostles raised from the dead, Lazarus, Dorcas, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc. These were to "remain" on the earth until that return of Christ.

When Jesus said that when He comes "will He find faith on the earth?", this was speaking of the land of Israel in particular - not the entire globe. The term "tes ges" (the earth) is more often than not in scripture referring specifically to the land of Israel in opposition to the pagan nations of the Gentile world, which often were described as the "sea".

In the land of Israel, the majority of that first-century generation rejected Christ and His message. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not". A prophesied "remnant" did believe in the Messiah, but the rest of that generation were to be blinded, also as prophesied. Faith among that first-century generation of Israel was hard to find.

But the progress of the kingdom of God was also prophesied to surge among the Gentile nations of the world, which has proven to be true. Just like leaven, the progress of the kingdom of God in this world's nations is steadily increasing under the radar in its evangelistic coverage of the world's people groups. This increase of God's government and of His peace will have no end, as prophesied. The "stone" kingdom will incrementally grow until it becomes a mountain that will fill the whole earth, as prophesied.

 

[RandyPNW]

You are certainly correct that the common understanding of the rapture as portrayed in the Pretrib movies is incorrect. All mankind is appointed to die the one time, and after that, the judgment, as Hebrews 9:27 said. The common misperception of the rapture event forgets this one-time death appointment for ALL men - even the saints. Only resurrected individuals were to take part in the rapture event. Those who were "alive and remain" being caught up in the rapture were those who had been already made alive by the resurrection process - such as those Christ and His Apostles raised from the dead, Lazarus, Dorcas, the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, etc. These were to "remain" on the earth until that return of Christ.

When Jesus said that when He comes "will He find faith on the earth?", this was speaking of the land of Israel in particular - not the entire globe. The term "tes ges" (the earth) is more often than not in scripture referring specifically to the land of Israel in opposition to the pagan nations of the Gentile world, which often were described as the "sea".

In the land of Israel, the majority of that first-century generation rejected Christ and His message. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not". A prophesied "remnant" did believe in the Messiah, but the rest of that generation were to be blinded, also as prophesied. Faith among that first-century generation of Israel was hard to find.

But the progress of the kingdom of God was also prophesied to surge among the Gentile nations of the world, which has proven to be true. Just like leaven, the progress of the kingdom of God in this world's nations is steadily increasing under the radar in its evangelistic coverage of the world's people groups. This increase of God's government and of His peace will have no end, as prophesied. The "stone" kingdom will incrementally grow until it becomes a mountain that will fill the whole earth, as prophesied.

Some of your points are legitimate, but I can't agree at all with your conclusions. I don't think "those that are left" to be caught up to heaven are those who died and arose "like Lazarus." To die is to be with the Lord instantly, and not to "remain until the Coming of the Lord." As Elijah's own "Rapture" was a hard to see event, I'm wondering if the Church at Jesus' Coming will be somewhat rare in light of all of the Antichristianity?

Though you're right that "the earth" often implies the land of Israel, I don't think it's so in this case. The apostasy orchestrated by Antichrist, in Dan 7, suggests a large part of the earth follows in his apostasy against God.

Even today, true Christianity seems to be severely weakened, and I fear for succeeding generations, if not our own! So many so-called "Christians" are purely nominal, and not born again. If Jesus comes when Christianity is so degraded perhaps those "who are left" will be relatively few in number and somewhat out of the mainstream. Like Elijah their disappearance may not even make the news!

 

[RandyPNW]

Exactly. I was taught the pretrib rapture in the 70s as well when I was growing up in my church. And my Dad had the Hal Lindsey book.

But years later when I started studying for myself and read the bible I saw that is was not biblical and like you Paul was teaching against it, not for it. He even states do not be confused by his first letter and some were and are still to this day.

But as the rest, I look at it as the second coming, all eyes on him, world wide event.

As a side note, I moved to S. CA in the mid-70s and read Chuck Smith's commentary on the Revelation. Thinking I couldn't possibly know more than he did, I questioned my Postrib--he was a strong Pretrib advocate. And there were so many other notable Christian leaders who were strongly Pretrib--Paul Crouch of TBN, Oral Roberts, and my own pastors!

So I fell into confusion and determined to study it out. My own local church was a super-church with a school of theology and a Bible store. And it was also Pretrib. But I went to the bookstore looking for material to read on the controversy between Postrib and Pretrib.

Out of the blue, a customer walked up to me and asked if he could help me find something. I told him what I wanted and he directed me to 2 books that I later learned were classic works on Postrib, books by George Ladd and Robert Gundry. He did not suggest any Pretrib books, even though prophecy shelves tended to be dominated by them!

The books confirmed everything that I had been thinking. I didn't necessarily agree with every point, but overall the works seemed very solid and objective. On the other hand, Chuck Smith was so determined in his position that he discouraged me from attending his church, due to my Postrib position! (Believe me, I'm not that important of a person!)

On the other hand, my own pastor, Ralph Wilkerson fully embraced my attendance at Melodyland Christian Center, even though I admitted being Postrib. So I guess it depends on who has written a book? (Hal Lindsey taught Sunday School at Melodyland!)

I felt God impress upon me the need to stop being gullible, and to believe what my own 2 eyes see in the Word. 2 Thes 2 says what it does, no matter how Pretribbers try to spin it. Thanks for your input!

 

[RandyPNW]

If you read 1 Thessalonians 4 (the most agreed upon "definitive" rapture passage) it doesn't seem like a surprise poof at all, but a very noisy overt event. the Lord coming down from heaven with a shout, and a trumpet and the voice of an Archangel. When Jesus described it in Matthew 24, it involved the sun and moon darkening, a meteor shower, and coming down in power and glory... and all the tribes of the Earth mourned. 2 Thessalonians 2 again connects the rapture with Jesus coming down from heaven, essentially what has to be argued is not a pretribulation rapture so to say, but more accurately, a pre second coming rapture... and the bible simply doesn't teach one. It teaches a second coming rapture.
that Jesus comes down from heaven (the second coming), all the tribes of the Earth mourn, know it's the Day of the Lord, the dead in Christ are resurrected, and the living are raptured.
There simply is no pre-tribulation poof prior to the second coming. The rapture is part of the second coming itself.

If you go to Revelation 6 with that understanding, it starts to become clear. The 6th seal and Revelation 7 matches the signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24:29-31. The sun and moon darken, the stars fall (meteors we now know not the stars which are well, they'd consume the earth if one were to hit us and their gravity would rip the entire planet apart), and the people on earth mourn and try to hide knowing that it's the Day of the Lord. There's no coverup story or alien abduction needed. The people know what happened, that the Lord's wrath is come upon the Earth.
... and then there are people in heaven praising God.
It isn't a flash forward. It fits what Jesus said. Sun and Moon darkening, tribes of the Earth mourning, and the elect gathered... and they're said to have come out of great tribulation. The Tribulation is over at that point. everything that follows isn't tribulation. It's something else.

That all said, Jesus said the days would be shortened or no flesh would survive, and He wasn't talking about unbelievers surviving, most of them get cut down after He returns anyway. Jesus comes to not only rescue the redeemed but to execute judgement on the unbelievers who persecuted the redeemed. The 5th seal asks how long until this happens, so it hadn't been happening until that point.
Jesus was talking about believers, about the elect. If Jesus had let the persecution of the Great Tribulation to continue, the wicked will kill all Christians. Jesus comes earlier to prevent that, so that some people are spared death.
It could be only 1 person who is caught up without dying for all we know.

So in that sense it could be a small rapture. But it won't be a secret rapture.
No sudden poof leaving a pile of neatly folded clothes on the ground with people wondering what happened... but a very overt unmistakable 2nd coming of the Lord, with people mourning.. knowing that Jesus came back in wrath.

A lot of good points. My thought was that Christians piloting planes would go missing at the Rapture, leaving their planes to crash. That doesn't sound very God-like?? Any thoughts?

Perhaps a world war that is nuclear might keep planes grounded in the preceding hours of that event? People may be hunkered down in anticipation of a great disaster. Cars and trucks off the road, Planes grounded.

Otherwise, it may be relatively few real Christians out and about. I know this sounds a little silly, but I do take the account seriously, and we do live in modern times. There are problems associated with a mass exodus of Christians from our planet.

 

[John Lamb]

A lot of good points. My thought was that Christians piloting planes would go missing at the Rapture, leaving their planes to crash. That doesn't sound very God-like?? Any thoughts?

Perhaps a world war that is nuclear might keep planes grounded in the preceding hours of that event? People may be hunkered down in anticipation of a great disaster. Cars and trucks off the road, Planes grounded.

Otherwise, it may be relatively few real Christians out and about. I know this sounds a little silly, but I do take the account seriously, and we do live in modern times. There are problems associated with a mass exodus of Christians from our planet.

Such is the diversity/perversity in end-times teaching, some will be made to think the Antichrist will be a warm fluffy version of old Hitler. Some will even think a Jewish life award winning pro-lgbt supporter will be able to charm old Hitler, cuddle up to him and survive the Tribulation.

 

[Unqualified]

Have faith , there are people in foreign countries that have such a gift that they can endure whatever it takes.

if your talking about the USA, God will make away. But if you are talking post trib than maybe a few will go. But during the GT itself millions previously on the fence will die for the faith, to get to heaven. God is merciful.
Do you think we should all die faithless. The way of escape is to die in the trib. But the faithful won’t have to go through it. Rev 7:9-14. Why else would you want to be comforted by these words in Thessalonians. And the scripture that we are not appointed to wrath. Rom 5:9. Saved from wrath. Pretrib In a nutshell.

 

[RandyPNW]

Such is the diversity/perversity in end-times teaching, some will be made to think the Antichrist will be a warm fluffy version of old Hitler. Some will even think a Jewish life award winning pro-lgbt supporter will be able to charm old Hitler, cuddle up to him and survive the Tribulation.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting, in light of what I said? I wasn't discussing what Antichrist will be like, but what state the still-alive Church will be in at the time of the "great disappearance?"

I'm sure Antichrist will be evil, like all of the other antichrists in history. And he will directly command 10 nations in Europe, obtaining popular support throughout the world. The whole world will be in fear of him.

So I'm sure that many nations will not directly support him, and probably will ultimately oppose him. That's Armageddon as I see it.

But what of the Church? Will they, like Elijah, be suddenly caught up to heaven, whether they're in the bathroom, piloting a plane, or working on a computer in their living room? And will they be relatively small in number?

"When the Son of Man comes will he find faith on earth?" (Luke 18.8)

 

[John Lamb]

A lot of good points. My thought was that Christians piloting planes would go missing at the Rapture, leaving their planes to crash.

That was a good point, there surely must be some Christian pilots around in years time when the rapture is to take place then. My voice, God, gave me the word “Pilot plant” recently. All words I get need interpreting and for the life of me I haven’t been able to work it out, until now that is. God the almighty will put an Angel in their seat when the rapture takes place.
I thought God was going to make me a Pilate (English pronunciation) plant somewhere in the distant futur, in another epoch, scary.

 

[Jamdoc]

A lot of good points. My thought was that Christians piloting planes would go missing at the Rapture, leaving their planes to crash. That doesn't sound very God-like?? Any thoughts?

Perhaps a world war that is nuclear might keep planes grounded in the preceding hours of that event? People may be hunkered down in anticipation of a great disaster. Cars and trucks off the road, Planes grounded.

Otherwise, it may be relatively few real Christians out and about. I know this sounds a little silly, but I do take the account seriously, and we do live in modern times. There are problems associated with a mass exodus of Christians from our planet.

Well, my thoughts is, there won't be any Christian pilots piloting planes when the rapture happens, or doing any important jobs in the world at that point. Great tribulation will result in Christians either preaching the end of the world until they are caught or killed, being imprisoned, or martyred, or on the run. It won't be life like normal for Christians. It'll be life like normal for unbelievers.

The Days of Noah, and the Days of Lot. That's our two examples, and Jesus gave us absolutely layered comparisons, not just 1 facet of those days but multiple.
and one of those facets is how believers were treated (mocked, persecuted) vs how the unrighteous were living (like everything was normal)

So ultimately while there will be planes flying when Jesus comes back, the Christians being caught up will be on the run, or in prison, or be mocked and seen as a crazy person preaching the end of the world while everyone thinks they're nuts and that Christians are the only thing wrong with the world and everything's great without them.

 

[John Lamb]

So ultimately while there will be planes flying when Jesus comes back,

There will be few if any commercial planes flying in the great tribulation and none at the Second Coming. Everybody by then will be priced out of basic commodities like wine, as Revelation states, which also states people looking on, aghast on board floating ships at Babylon going up in smoke. All the world’s islands will “flee” at this point which is a significant pointer to an apocalypse by anybody’s forward thinking of the end.

 

[JulieB67]

and to believe what my own 2 eyes see in the Word. 2 Thes 2 says what it does, no matter how Pretribbers try to spin it.

So true!

. That doesn't sound very God-like?? Any thoughts?

That's something I used to think about when I was a pretribber. Now that I'm postrib I know it's not going down like that regardless. That would be complete chaos and shut down of so many things all over the world. And no, not God like at all. That's like saying some of those left behind would not even have a choice because of all the deaths that would ensue, crashes, accidents, babies from the wombs. It just sounds so ridiculous when you really think about.

here are problems associated with a mass exodus of Christians from our planet.

So many many problems.

 

[Jamdoc]

There will be few if any commercial planes flying in the great tribulation and none at the Second Coming. Everybody by then will be priced out of basic commodities like wine, as Revelation states, which also states people looking on, aghast on board floating ships at Babylon going up in smoke. All the world’s islands will “flee” at this point which is a significant pointer to an apocalypse by anybody’s forward thinking of the end.

Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God.

again
Jesus gave us examples, the Days of Noah, and the Days of Lot.
What were unbelievers doing during those days? Eating drinking, planting fields and harvesting crops, marrying, building....

If you believe tribulation refers to global catastrophes, then you've failed at understanding the Days of Noah and Days of Lot, specifically what Jesus said people will be doing when He returns.
People won't be living normal lives during the trumpets and bowls.
But people will live normal lives during the Mark of the Beast. The Mark of the Beast is to ENABLE people to live normal lives in that time.
It's people who refuse the mark that tribulation happens to.

The picture is painted between the statement of the Days of Noah/Days of Lot, and Revelation and old testament prophets, that there's a global crisis, and a kingdom arises out of it that controls the entire world, and then for most of the world, things go back to normal life, but the world turns on Christians and Jews, and then Jesus comes back, and then the wrath of God.

There has to be that return to normalcy, where only Christians and Jews are persecuted, because Jesus didn't say He would return when the world was in catastrophe, He said He'd return and it'd be like normal for the wicked.

 

[JulieB67]

because Jesus didn't say He would return when the world was in catastrophe, He said He'd return and it'd be like normal for the wicked.

Yes, that's exactly why it's stated that people will be saying peace and safety and then sudden destruction comes upon them.

 

[Guojing]

Logically speaking, it is more appealing to believe in post trib.

If you are incorrect, its a bonus.
If you are correct, you will be well prepared.

Its like days in school where you assume that you will do badly for any exam.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, that's exactly why it's stated that people will be saying peace and safety and then sudden destruction comes upon them.

Correct, but you still believe that He'll come at the end of supernaturally caused catastrophic events that would have even unbelievers claiming it's the end of the world. Not building houses planting crops and getting married.

The reconciliation of scripture is to understand "after the tribulation of those days" has to be the same as the Days of Noah and Days of Lot where the wicked were living very normal lives. Only believers knew destruction was coming. Do you see how if all the seas turned to blood and all the sea life died that it's impossible to live a normal life for anyone?