is the future Antichrist unique?

[RandyPNW]

Here's the problem with the so-called future "70th Week of Daniel."

1) The 70th Week of Daniel immediately followed the 69th Weeks of Daniel, or the "70 Weeks" prediction makes no sense. 69 Weeks + 2000 years + the 70th Week? No!

Only ancient Church Father Irenaeus and his disciple Hippolytus held to the notion of a future 70th Week, disconnected from the 69 Weeks. So it was the brainchild of Irenaeus, as far as I can tell? Or perhaps someone before him inspired this idea in him?

2) The idea of a full 70th Week of 7 years coinciding with the Reign of Antichrist tends to set that period apart from all of NT history, as if it is worse than all previous times. The idea that it will be a "great tribulation unlike any other" is falsely applied to this time period, since the "Great Tribulation was described by Jesus as applicable to the Jewish Diaspora of the NT era, which is the worst punishment in Israel's history for length of time, almost causing the Jews to cease to exist as a people.

So what really was the 3.5 years of Antichrist meant to prepare the Church for--something worse or something typical of all Christian history? In reality, antiChristianity has been around since the beginning of the Church, since the death of Christ himself.

John said that as Antichrist is coming, so already there have been many antichrists. And so, this period of time was intended to prepare the Church for the typical opposition that comes from serving Christ. It will not always be as intense an opposition as will happen when an antichrist is present. But there will always be opposition and unpopularity associated with being a Christian.

We have to be prepared for that if we are to endure to the end. There will always be antichrists in the world up until Christ comes back to defeat all opposition to his Kingdom.

 

[Douggg]

Randy, there has to be a 7 year 70th week left to fit all of the timeframes of the time of end prophecies of Daniel into.

Time frames of: the time, times, half time. the 2300 days, the 1290 days and 1335 days.

 

[Douggg]

Randy, there has to be the singular Antichrist person. That person ultimately becomes the beast-king of Revelation 13 who rules for 42 months.

------------------------------------------------

Try this exercise. Put into order the following. before, after, or concurrent.

1260 days of the two witnesses, prophets.

1260 days of Revelation 12:6

the time, times, half time that Satan will have left

the 42 months rule of the beast

Jesus's return to this earth

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I will go first.

1260 days of the two witnesses, prophets. Concurrent with 1260 days of Revelation 12:6
then
the 42 months rule of the beast. Concurrent with the time, times, half time that Satan will have left
then
Jesus's return to this earth

 

[RandyPNW]

Randy, there has to be a 7 year 70th week left to fit all of the timeframes of the time of end prophecies of Daniel into.

Time frames of: the time, times, half time. the 2300 days, the 1290 days and 1335 days.



View attachment 342039

Just to explain, Doug, a good number of years ago I changed my view on these various periods of roughly 3.5 years. I began to differentiate between 3 major historical events Daniel spoke of. There was Antiochus 4 in the 2nd century BC. There was the death of Jesus and the fall of the temple in 70 AD. And there is the Little Horn, or the Antichrist.

There seemed to be a parallel between Antiochus 4 and the Antichrist. And the "Abomination of Desolation" appeared to be a term applied separately to Antiochus 4 and to the pagan Roman siege of Jerusalem 66-70 AD.

Dan 12 ends Daniel's book by revisiting two of the main characters of that book, the 3.5 years under Antichrist in verse 7, and the 3.5 years under Antiochus 4 in verse 11. Both events would be major historical events in the life of Israel, the Antiochus event much nearer in time.

Dan 12.7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.
Dan 12.11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Though these 2 periods of 3.5 years appear similar they are not exactly alike. According to the book of Revelation Antichrist will reign for 3.5 years, or 1260 days. According to Dan 12.11, Antiochus 4 reigned 1290 days, which appears to be an historical fact. Hope came on the 1335th day perhaps because it took the news of Antiochus's death that long to reach Jerusalem.

In Dan 8 we read about a longer period of time associated with the time of Antiochus 4. And that is because the passage is addressing the entire period beginning with the corruption of the High priest and ending with the death of Antiochus.

Dan 8.14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

Dan 8 and 11 speak of Antiochus 4 out of the old Syrian branch off of the fragmented Alexandrian Empire. All of the language suggests this, in my view.

And so, we simply must not confuse the Little Horn of Dan 9 with Antiochus 4 referred to in both Dan 8 and 11. And we need to differentiate between the Abomination of Desolation describing Antiochus in Dan 8 and 11 from the AoD associated with the Roman attack on Jerusalem in 70 AD, described in Dan 9.27.

All of this has taken me years of study, considering all of the various contributing scholars. We really have to reason it out for ourselves. There is a blessing, I believe, for those who persevere in this--it is, quite honestly, very difficult. Perhaps God intended that?

 

[Douggg]

All of this has taken me years of study, considering all of the various contributing scholars. We really have to reason it out for ourselves. There is a blessing, I believe, for those who persevere in this--it is, quite honestly, very difficult. Perhaps God intended that?

`I agree that it is difficult.

Dan 12.7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.
Dan 12.11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

Though these 2 periods of 3.5 years appear similar they are not exactly alike. According to the book of Revelation Antichrist will reign for 3.5 years, or 1260 days. According to Dan 12.11, Antiochus 4 reigned 1290 days, which appears to be an historical fact. Hope came on the 1335th day perhaps because it took the news of Antiochus's death that long to reach Jerusalem.

The reason that Antiochus IV is not associated with Daniel 12:11, the 1290 days, is because everything in Daniel 12 is "time of the end".

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Does not describe Antiochus IV's time.

The little horn person of Daniel 7 and 8 is "time of the end". That person is not Antiochus IV.

This is the base timeline for all of "the time of the end" timeframes to fit into... i.e the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. Work with this, and everything fits. You may or may not have noticed but all of my timeline charts are based on this one base chart.

 

[Jamdoc]

Here's the problem with the so-called future "70th Week of Daniel."

1) The 70th Week of Daniel immediately followed the 69th Weeks of Daniel, or the "70 Weeks" prediction makes no sense. 69 Weeks + 2000 years + the 70th Week? No!

Only ancient Church Father Irenaeus and his disciple Hippolytus held to the notion of a future 70th Week, disconnected from the 69 Weeks. So it was the brainchild of Irenaeus, as far as I can tell? Or perhaps someone before him inspired this idea in him?

2) The idea of a full 70th Week of 7 years coinciding with the Reign of Antichrist tends to set that period apart from all of NT history, as if it is worse than all previous times. The idea that it will be a "great tribulation unlike any other" is falsely applied to this time period, since the "Great Tribulation was described by Jesus as applicable to the Jewish Diaspora of the NT era, which is the worst punishment in Israel's history for length of time, almost causing the Jews to cease to exist as a people.

So what really was the 3.5 years of Antichrist meant to prepare the Church for--something worse or something typical of all Christian history? In reality, antiChristianity has been around since the beginning of the Church, since the death of Christ himself.

John said that as Antichrist is coming, so already there have been many antichrists. And so, this period of time was intended to prepare the Church for the typical opposition that comes from serving Christ. It will not always be as intense an opposition as will happen when an antichrist is present. But there will always be opposition and unpopularity associated with being a Christian.

We have to be prepared for that if we are to endure to the end. There will always be antichrists in the world up until Christ comes back to defeat all opposition to his Kingdom.

Daniel 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

is there still sin? Yes.
has prophecy all been fulfilled? Doesn't look like it, unless you are a full preterist in which case, this is not the subforum for that.

Sin still exists, death still exists, Jesus hasn't come back, and there is prophecy to still be fulfilled, and the world is currently in trajectory for a futurist interpretation of the 70th week of Daniel.

There's a time of desolations after the destruction of the 2nd temple until the season Christ returns. 70AD was not the fig tree bringing forth new leaves, 70AD was the withering of the fig tree, and the fig tree stays withered, until it brought forth new leaves, and that has been more recently.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

all that can really be said is.. the war referred to, is still ongoing, whatever war it specifically is.
Is it a reference to the time of the gentiles?
reference to the war against sin?
reference to the war in heaven in which Satan gets cast down?

Whatever it is it was not talking about a regional war during 70AD
because Jesus did not come back.

as far as Antichrists? we've been told there are and will be many. But there is a specific person as well.

 

[RandyPNW]

The little horn person of Daniel 7 and 8 is "time of the end". That person is not Antiochus IV.

I've heard this argument for many years, and don't believe it's valid. The "time of the end" can refer to the "time of the end of the age" or to the "time of the end of a particular era," such as the end of a particular king's reign. It could mean the "time of the end of a particular era of difficulty or punishment." It is context that determines what "end" is being referred to. We cannot think that every time "time of the end" is mentioned it is an eschatological context.

2 Sam 24.15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died.

Here, the "time of the end" is given a specific designation, and cannot be the end of the world. It is rather a specific time so characterized by a plague.

Dan 4.34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored.

This "time of the end" refers, in context, to the time of Nebuchadnezzar's judgment--not the end of the world.

Dan 8 19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

In this last instance, in Dan 8, the "time of the end" specifically refers to a "time of wrath," which is associated specifically with ancient Greece and with Antiochus 4, who followed after. God is apparently still angry with Israel, even after the restoration from the Babylonian Captivity. And Antiochus 4 is the high point of this judgment called the "time of the end" because orthodox worship is brought virtually to an end in Israel.

You get my point?

 

[Douggg]

There's a time of desolations after the destruction of the 2nd temple until the season Christ returns. 70AD was not the fig tree bringing forth new leaves, 70AD was the withering of the fig tree, and the fig tree stays withered, until it brought forth new leaves, and that has been more recently.

Yes, that is a good observation.

The fig tree represents Jerusalem. Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967. So what we are looking at is 1967 +70 years for a generation = 2037 as the limit. Then taking away 7 years for the 70th week - that puts the end of 2030 as the limit for the 7 years to start.

And since the 7 years are immediately after Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39 - between now and the end of 2030, we should expect that to happen also.

 

[RandyPNW]

Daniel 9


is there still sin? Yes.
has prophecy all been fulfilled? Doesn't look like it, unless you are a full preterist in which case, this is not the subforum for that.

It is not a Preterist position to believe that Jesus ended the legal effects of Sin upon the Church at the Cross. And no, I'm not a Preterist, full or partial.

The Church Fathers largely viewed the 6 things listed in Dan 9.24 as fulfilled at the Cross. It was a time when Sin became fully ripe in Israel, and God determined to judge that Sin for all time.

In the process God made atonement for those who wished to be rid of the condemnation of Sin. That's what Dan 9.24 is all about, in my view.

"Anointing the Most Holy Place" may indicate the ratification of a New Covenant. The Roman Government set that up in the 70th Week by bringing Christ to his death, thus nullifying animal sacrifices under the Old Covenant.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

There's also the theory the 70th week has already happened, using the day for year aspect of prophecy. 483 years from the order to rebuild to Jesus Baptism. Messiah cut off at 3 1/2 years, the temple veil rent, and 3 1/2 years after that when Stephen was stoned the Gospel went to the gentiles.
Which means "the great tribulation" is NOT a period of 7 years (or it may be, we don't know), but a general period of great distress that plays out on earth, which gets cut short in righteousness according to Romans, and as Jesus said, unless those days be shortened no flesh should be saved.
That there is an antichrist and antichrist spirit is obvious if you just keep track of the news over the past few decades.

 

[Douggg]

I've heard this argument for many years, and don't believe it's valid. The "time of the end" can refer to the "time of the end of the age" or to the "time of the end of a particular era," such as the end of a particular king's reign. It could mean the "time of the end of a particular era of difficulty or punishment." It is context that determines what "end" is being referred to. We cannot think that every time "time of the end" is mentioned it is an eschatological context.

2 Sam 24.15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died.

Here, the "time of the end" is given a specific designation, and cannot be the end of the world. It is rather a specific time so characterized by a plague.

Dan 4.34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored.

This "time of the end" refers, in context, to the time of Nebuchadnezzar's judgment--not the end of the world.

Dan 8 19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.
23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

In this last instance, in Dan 8, the "time of the end" specifically refers to a "time of wrath," which is associated specifically with ancient Greece and with Antiochus 4, who followed after. God is apparently still angry with Israel, even after the restoration from the Babylonian Captivity. And Antiochus 4 is the high point of this judgment called the "time of the end" because orthodox worship is brought virtually to an end in Israel.

You get my point?

"end of that time" "end of the time" are not "time of the end" statements.

What the time of the end refers to is the end of Satan and his angels' mystical kingdom of Babylon the Great that has been instigating trouble for mankind for 6000 years coming to a close.

In Revelation 10:7, it is called the mystery of God.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the seventh angel sounds the third woe is made known. The first two woes of the fifth and sixth angels were made known in Revelation 9.

The third woe is Satan being cast down to earth having great wrath knowing his time is short - a time, times, half time.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The first two woes affect mankind, so "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" (Revelation 8:13). The third woe though will be more expansive and will affect life in the sea as well. During its time every living soul in sea will die.

God dismantles Satan and his angels kingdom over the course of the time, times, half time to be no more. Time of the end.

 

[Douggg]

Which means "the great tribulation" is NOT a period of 7 years (or it may be, we don't know), but a general period of great distress that plays out on earth, which gets cut short in righteousness according to Romans, and as Jesus said, unless those days be shortened no flesh should be saved.

The great tribulation is not 7 years in length. But because we are told in Matthew 24:15-21 what starts it - the abomination of desolation, referencing what Daniel the prophet wrote about it, we can know that it will last 1335 days before it is over.

Revelation 12:
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, that is a good observation.

The fig tree represents Jerusalem. Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967. So what we are looking at is 1967 +70 years for a generation = 2037 as the limit. Then taking away 7 years for the 70th week - that puts the end of 2030 as the limit for the 7 years to start.

And since the 7 years are immediately after Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39 - between now and the end of 2030, we should expect that to happen also.

I wouldn't set a hard limit of 70 years, as the language used is the generation will not pass, just means some people who saw the fig tree come back to life would see Jesus return.
But roughly somewhere around there seems to be the way things are going.

 

[Jamdoc]

It is not a Preterist position to believe that Jesus ended the legal effects of Sin upon the Church at the Cross. And no, I'm not a Preterist, full or partial.

The Church Fathers largely viewed the 6 things listed in Dan 9.24 as fulfilled at the Cross. It was a time when Sin became fully ripe in Israel, and God determined to judge that Sin for all time.

In the process God made atonement for those who wished to be rid of the condemnation of Sin. That's what Dan 9.24 is all about, in my view.

"Anointing the Most Holy Place" may indicate the ratification of a New Covenant. The Roman Government set that up in the 70th Week by bringing Christ to his death, thus nullifying animal sacrifices under the Old Covenant.

but there's still prophecy to be fulfilled so the 70th week has not been fulfilled yet.

 

[Douggg]

I wouldn't set a hard limit of 70 years, as the language used is the generation will not pass, just means some people who saw the fig tree come back to life would see Jesus return.
But roughly somewhere around there seems to be the way things are going.

The length of a generation comes from Psalms 90:10. 70 years. The caveat is if person is blessed with good health, ie. by strength, a generation of those persons is 80 years.

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

By the way things are going with Russia and Ukraine, I think the 7 years beginning is close. I am keeping an eye on Zelensky, he may or may not be the person. Too early to tell for certain.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

I wouldn't set a hard limit of 70 years, as the language used is the generation will not pass, just means some people who saw the fig tree come back to life would see Jesus return.
But roughly somewhere around there seems to be the way things are going.

Jesus was emphatic when He said: And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.

You can read these two articles from the Jerusalem Post along with scripture and see just how true His prophecy was:

Acts 3:22For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
Diaspora Affairs: Will Israel ever accept Messianic Jews?

Leviticus 20:If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
LGBTQ org. reveals Israel's most gay-friendly cities in Pride Month poll

On top of that, there's a pagan mosque sitting in Jerusalem that's been there for more than 1300 years.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus was emphatic when He said: And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.

You can read these two articles from the Jerusalem Post along with scripture and see just how true His prophecy was:

Acts 3:22For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
Diaspora Affairs: Will Israel ever accept Messianic Jews?

Leviticus 20:If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
LGBTQ org. reveals Israel's most gay-friendly cities in Pride Month poll

On top of that, there's a pagan mosque sitting in Jerusalem that's been there for more than 1300 years.

and yet the Parable he gave said the fig tree would bring forth new leaves.
and both the old testament and new testament speak of the salvation of Israel, and Paul and John clarify that it will be a remnant of National Israel, not a replacement by gentiles. There's going to be a remnant that hear that prophet when He returns.

 

[One God and Father of All]

`I agree that it is difficult.


The reason that Antiochus IV is not associated with Daniel 12:11, the 1290 days, is because everything in Daniel 12 is "time of the end".

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Does not describe Antiochus IV's time.

The little horn person of Daniel 7 and 8 is "time of the end". That person is not Antiochus IV.

This is the base timeline for all of "the time of the end" timeframes to fit into... i.e the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. Work with this, and everything fits. You may or may not have noticed but all of my timeline charts are based on this one base chart.


View attachment 342183

“And seal the book”——-With 7 SEALS!

 

[Jamdoc]

The length of a generation comes from Psalms 90:10. 70 years. The caveat is if person is blessed with good health, ie. by strength, a generation of those persons is 80 years.

10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

By the way things are going with Russia and Ukraine, I think the 7 years beginning is close. I am keeping an eye on Zelensky, he may or may not be the person. Too early to tell for certain.

I'm aware of where that comes from I just don't agree that it is used for that specific purpose.
because you could also go with I think it was 35 or 40 years for each generation of the 14 generations in Jesus' lineage since the Babylonian captivity. There is also Genesis 6 designating the number of days for mankind as being 120. It doesn't seem to be a hard rule and doctrine should not be made on 1 verse out of context.

 

[Douggg]

I'm aware of where that comes from I just don't agree that it is used for that specific purpose.
because you could also go with I think it was 35 or 40 years for each generation of the 14 generations in Jesus' lineage since the Babylonian captivity. There is also Genesis 6 designating the number of days for mankind as being 120. It doesn't seem to be a hard rule and doctrine should not be made on 1 verse out of context.

If a person plugged 40 years into the parable of the fig tree generation, then
1967 + 40 years/generation = 2007. That combination did not work out.

120 years in Genesis would apply to that era as men lived longer lives back then. But not to our day.

I don't think Jesus would have given the parable of the fig tree generation if it were not something that serves to aid Christians alive in the parable of the fig tree generation, to encourage them with hope and peace of mind. Look up! Our redemption draws near. This corruptible shall put on incorruptible, this mortal shall put on immortal.

I think we are living in exciting times. The troubles of this world for us almost over. Eternity near at hand.

We may not know the day nor hour, but we should be able to discern the season.