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A New Dawn · Jul 4, 2025

A2SG said:
What if I did investigate it myself, and were unable to confirm your figures? Would that convince you you're wrong?

-- A2SG, maybe I did, and am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt....

I would say that as long as you actually investigate, go with what you find. As I said, even though I believe that it is a much higher number than the ones reported due to testimonies from people in the know about trafficked border crossings, but who testimonies I can’t reproduce, I’m not even going to bring those numbers into the discussion and went with the much smaller, but more verifiable number, for the discussion.

The trouble is that people these days tend to do the minimalist work possible and don’t research for themselves. For myself, a retired nurse who has nothing to do but go down rabbit holes and listen to just about any video someone posts, I then watch as many videos as I can and read as many articles as I can on the issue to try to verify things. Some things I can reproduce, some things I can’t. As I said, I’m not even bringing the things I can’t reproduce into the discussion.

Carl Emerson · Jul 4, 2025

FredVB said:
I don't have to add to what scripture passages say for what I believe with my faith. The only effective covering for sins is the atonement we have from Jesus Christ, and that is it. I don't believe in sacrifices where they are not stated.

Nor do I...

Much of what happens in the OT is a shadow of what was to come in the New Covenant.

Nor do I...

Fervent · Jul 4, 2025

PloverWing said:
No, most abortions (at least, here in the US) are done within the first trimester, well before viability. (In 2021, 80.8% were performed at <= 9 weeks' gestation, and 93.5% at <= 13 weeks gestation; source Abortion Surveillance — United States, 2021). There is a difference between an embryo that has the potential to become viable in a few months' time and a fetus that is viable right now.

I don't think that's what he meant by "viable", but a more general understanding of there being no deficiency in the fetus regardless of stage of development such that if carried to term the baby would have likely survived.

Fervent · Jul 4, 2025

The Liturgist said:
I think the CF Statement of Faith is a pretty good starting point.

It definitely is, but I think we could go further by revisting the various early ecumenical councils and re-affirming them and perhaps restating them to fit with modern expressions of anathematized material. I think we could at least get almost universal agreement to the 3rd council of Constantinople, if not as late as the 2nd council of Nicea. Upon securing common ground in those respects, we might then begin visiting each others particular councils and sifting them for points of agreement.

PloverWing · Jul 4, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Most abortions are done to viable children right? Where is the room for nuance when most abortions are done for the sake of convenience to preserve the woman's lifestyle?

No, most abortions (at least, here in the US) are done within the first trimester, well before viability. (In 2021, 80.8% were performed at <= 9 weeks' gestation, and 93.5% at <= 13 weeks gestation; source Abortion Surveillance — United States, 2021). There is a difference between an embryo that has the potential to become viable in a few months' time and a fetus that is viable right now.

RDKirk · Jul 4, 2025

rjs330 said:
They are all economic systems, but not all are forms of government. Socialism is a form or government as is communism. Capitalism is only an economic system. There is no Capitalist form of government.

Socialism is not a form of government, it is an economic system that can be put into place by several forms of government. Communism is also not a form of government, but it requires a totalitarian government to put it into place. North Korea, for instance, has a fascist form of government and a communist economy.

A2SG · Jul 4, 2025

A New Dawn said:
He doesn’t have to support my argument, but if he believes I am wrong, he needs to prove that, himself. I already did the work to know that I am right, why should I try to prove myself wrong?

Remember back in school when they told you to show your work? Same principle.

-- A2SG, I can't prove you wrong if I don't even know where your information comes from, can I?

RDKirk · Jul 4, 2025

Guojing said:
So when Peter said all, he meant all were healed?

"Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem, saying, 'Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.' When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him." -- Matthew 2.

Was all Jerusalem troubled with Herod?

Simeon? Anna?

A New Dawn · Jul 4, 2025

Brightfame52 said:
Didnt I just say its guided by His Purpose ? Listen please

You said “His grace is only sufficient and efficient to cover the sins of His sheep.” So I am asking if everyone in the world was his sheep, would Christ’s sacrifice be sufficient? It’s a simple question. Please pay attention.

A2SG · Jul 4, 2025

A New Dawn said:
And I told you exactly where I heard it. On news programs that I didn’t choose to record or make note of.

Which I can't confirm or investigate myself.

A New Dawn said:
For that reason, I consulted google and google’s AI took all the information from their favorite algorithms and made a nice summation of it.

AI is notoriously unreliable. I prefer original sources, and you should too.

A New Dawn said:
I believe the number is much higher because they only count the people who go through the gates, but I still went with their information. Do what you will with it.

Not much I can do, given what little you've given me. For all I know, the number is made up, or inflated for partisan purposes.

How can I know if you won't tell me?

A New Dawn said:
Or here’s a thought, search for yourself to try to prove me wrong if you are so sure I made it all up.

I didn't say you did make it up, only that I can't know one way or the other.

What if I did investigate it myself, and were unable to confirm your figures? Would that convince you you're wrong?

-- A2SG, maybe I did, and am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt....

rjs330 · Jul 4, 2025

JosephZ said:
The breakdown by the Congressional Budget Office shows that poor and vulnerable get less while the wealthy get more. The reports show show that the bottom 20% of earners will receive less than 5% of tax cut benefits while also facing losses from Medicaid and SNAP reductions and the top 1% will see tax savings averaging $50,000–$100,000 annually. The top 1% would also benefit from estate tax changes and business incentives.

The changes would not be evenly distributed among households. The agency estimates that in general, resources would decrease for households toward the bottom of the income distribution, whereas resources would increase for households in the middle and top of the income distribution.

Resources for households in the lowest decile of the income distribution would decrease by about $1,600 per year (in 2025 dollars) compared with their projected income in CBO’s baseline projections (see Figure 1).5 That amounts to 3.9 percent of their income (see Figure 2). Those projected decreases are mainly attributable to reductions in in-kind transfers, such as Medicaid and

I see the problem. A lack of paying attention. The rich get the smallest amount of tax cuts while those that earn less have the highest tax cut.

The fact is those that earn less keep more of their money than the rich do. The fact that rhe rich have more money to begin with is irrelevant to the process. Say a rich person gets a 3% cut while income of a 50000 earners get 7%. The lower income earner get double the cut the rich got.

7% is certainly a lesser amount than 3% in full dollars.

Let's be honest. You and most of those on the left want NO tax cut for the rich or an actual tax increase. Well, you aren't going to get it.

The FACT is lower earners will keep more of their money.

Medicaid has not been cut. Those that need it will have it.

A New Dawn · Jul 4, 2025

JSRG said:
Why do you think your opponent in an argument should be the one to try to support what you are arguing?

And if it is so easy to do so, why do you not just do it yourself and offer the sources? A "20 second google search" on your part presumably would have taken less time than the multiple posts you've offered refusing to offer sources.

He doesn’t have to support my argument, but if he believes I am wrong, he needs to prove that, himself. I already did the work to know that I am right, why should I try to prove myself wrong?

JSRG · Jul 4, 2025

A New Dawn said:
Why should I take the time to remember something and post it here when you have no intention of looking at it, anyway? It’s not like CNN or MSNBC or even google leans conservative for you to be so distrustful of, but so be it. I’m not going to do work you can so very easily replicate with a 20!second google search and learn something for yourself.

Why do you think your opponent in an argument should be the one to try to support what you are arguing?

And if it is so easy to do so, why do you not just do it yourself and offer the sources? A "20 second google search" on your part presumably would have taken less time than the multiple posts you've offered refusing to offer sources.

JSRG · Jul 4, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Please provide a link to the article, in its original context, so I can assess what it is actually claiming.

I would note it is not an official document of the Roman Catholic Church, so your use of it is an appeal to unqualified authority, however, there were some liberal Catholics in the late 1970s who were liberal even by contemporary Anglican standards, who were cracked down upon by Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal, who as an Orthodox I hope the Roman church will canonize. But I have an academic interest in the writings of these liberal Catholics, so I would like to see the original article.

I would note that unlike the Roman Catholics who are usually criticized, the left wing movement in the RCC actually warranted (and continues to warrant) criticism, albeit not the kind of aggressive anti-Catholic argumentation we have seen.

"From Sabbath to Sunday" wasn't an article, but a book, and was by Samuele Bacchiocchi. Bacchiocchi was not a Catholic--he was a Seventh Day Adventist, though he did attend and graduate from Pontificial Gregorian University, actually being the first non-Catholic to attend it. That presumably is why they published it (it was, I believe, either his graduate thesis, or at least very strongly based on it).

As I recall (I do not have the full book available), Bacchiocchi rejected both the frequent Catholic claim of this Saturday-to-Sunday change emerging from the apostles and the frequent Adventist claim that it only happened centuries afterwards; Bacchiocchi instead thought the practice started in the second century, particularly as an attempt to avoid being associated with Jews after the Bar Kokhba Revolt.

A New Dawn · Jul 4, 2025

A2SG said:
What did I say to give you that idea? I asked for it, of course I'll look at it and consider it. Can't guarantee it'll be convincing, but that's really up to you.

You made the claim, not me. I assume you got your information from somewhere, didn't you? I'm simply asking to know what you know, from the source you got it from so I can evaluate it myself.

-- A2SG, surely that's not too much to ask....

And I told you exactly where I heard it. On news programs that I didn’t choose to record or make note of. For that reason, I consulted google and google’s AI took all the information from their favorite algorithms and made a nice summation of it. I believe the number is much higher because they only count the people who go through the gates, but I still went with their information. Do what you will with it.

Or here’s a thought, search for yourself to try to prove me wrong if you are so sure I made it all up.

concretecamper · Jul 4, 2025

Love365 said:
No.

Why?

Hentenza · Jul 4, 2025

BobRyan said:
If the moral law was "finished" rather than written on the heart according to Heb 8 and Jer 31 -- then someone needs to inform scripture about it.

prescriptive law - like moral law and the speed limit does not get deleted the moment someone complies with it.

So then "do not take God's name in vain" and "honor your father and mother" does not get "deleted"/completed as soon as the first person actually does what the law requires. Just like a 55 MPH speed limit does not get deleted - as soon as the first person goes 55 mph on the highway

All of the law was fulfilled by Christ including the moral law, the prescriptive law, and any other part of the 613 laws in the Old Testament. The old covenant is done, cooked, completed, finished. All laws are now in the Spirit. All of them. No one was ever saved by the old laws, period. Everyone ever has been saved by faith, not laws. In the new covenant those in Christ are saved by the grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ.

BTW, driving 55 sucked even when it was instituted. :doh:

A New Dawn · Jul 4, 2025

Maria Billingsley said:
I am against abortion. Legality has no play in this situation because a woman, like I said, will do anything to rid herself of her child if she really wants to. Medical intervention came into play because many women died. Maybe I can share some of their ways as a reminder.

* Ingesting poisons or large quantities of certain herbs that could lead to organ failure, hemorrhage, and death.
* Self-inflicted injuries, extreme physical exertion, or blows to the abdomen could cause internal bleeding, uterine rupture, and fatal shock.
* Introducing unsterilized or sharp objects into the uterus could cause severe infection, perforation, hemorrhage, and sepsis.
* Applying corrosive chemicals internally could lead to severe burns, infection, and systemic toxicity.

This is a partial list.

So I guess the real question is, does the mothers life have any value?

Then I guess you must be really thankful for the heartbeat bill, because studies have shown that many pregnant women who go in for an abortion change their minds when they hear the baby’s heartbeat. You must also be grateful for anatomy classes that show the baby at various stages of intrauterine life to show that it really is a human child in there. Both of these measures are highly contested by the left because they know it generally means that once women know them they often choose to keep the baby.

Clare73 · Jul 4, 2025

stevevw said:
Yes and no I think. I don't think many in the old testament or even in the early church had science or enlightenment to question God. Yet they had great faith even until death.

Christ speaks of a child like faith that cannot be answered by enlightened questioning. Faith seems to work no matter what.

I agree for the individuals it is good that our right to belief is in our hands and we can rationally work out whats false and what is truth. But then rationality is also a threat to faith and we cannot believe due to rationality. So I think it works up to a point and then its the evidence unseen which cannot be rationalised.

It's the witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirit that cannot be rationalized.

A2SG · Jul 4, 2025

A New Dawn said:
Why should I take the time to remember something and post it here when you have no intention of looking at it, anyway?

What did I say to give you that idea? I asked for it, of course I'll look at it and consider it. Can't guarantee it'll be convincing, but that's really up to you.

A New Dawn said:
It’s not like CNN or MSNBC or even google leans conservative for you to be so distrustful of, but so be it. I’m not going to do work you can so very easily replicate with a 20!second google search and learn something for yourself.

You made the claim, not me. I assume you got your information from somewhere, didn't you? I'm simply asking to know what you know, from the source you got it from so I can evaluate it myself.

-- A2SG, surely that's not too much to ask....

A New Dawn · Jul 4, 2025

public hermit said:
That is simply not true. Many Christians have abortions.

In 2011, the Guttmacher Institute reported that 70 percent of the women having abortions in the U.S. identified as Protestant or Catholic.[140] The same report said that of all U.S. abortions, 37 percent were undertaken by women who identified as Protestant, and 28 percent were Catholic.[140] The number of abortions performed on U.S. Catholic women is about the same per capita as the average in the general U.S. population; in the 2000s, Catholic women were 29 percent more likely to have an abortion than Protestant women.[93]

Christianity and abortion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One could ask if they were truly Christians or did they grow up in a religious home where they, themselves didn’t have a relationship with God. Calling yourself Christian because your parents were Christian doesn’t make you Christian.

ralliann · Jul 4, 2025

chevyontheriver said:
Well, you do have to follow your conscience. At the same time you have to actively form your conscience in right ways. And you do have to form your understanding by grabbing onto more truth. Then you set sail for the land of truth that God will guide you to.

I look at it this way when deciding which church to belong to: Where does God want me? Not where am I most comfortable. Where am I called to be mentored/discipled?

I am uncomfortable with what I have to do. I can accept, the conscience of others doing these things. So it is the extent of forming the conscience here.
1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; {emboldened: Gr. edified }
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

A New Dawn · Jul 4, 2025

A2SG said:
So you remembered something from some news program somewhere, then checked with Google's AI.

Gee, how could I possibly doubt those credentials.

-- A2SG, Woodward and Bernstein would be proud....

Why should I take the time to remember something and post it here when you have no intention of looking at it, anyway? It’s not like CNN or MSNBC or even google leans conservative for you to be so distrustful of, but so be it. I’m not going to do work you can so very easily replicate with a 20!second google search and learn something for yourself.

pasifika · Jul 4, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
This thread is to discuss the commandments of man versus the commandments of God. This thread is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone as there are Christians in all churches living up to the light they have and this discussion is about institutions, not individuals.

In Daniel it was prophesied that a government would change God's times and laws

Dan 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time.

There is only one law that is both a time (every seventh day Sabbath Exo 20:10) and is a law (4th commandments Exo 20:8-11) and it was changed not by God.

Do we see this in history?

Yes, the Catholic church takes credit for this change

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

The change happened a long time ago in the council of Laodicea in 364 AD

The Seven Ecumenical Councils — Philip Schaff
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

This is very similar to the decree that went out to Daniel and his three friends that went against one of God's commandments - God told us to rest on the seventh day, this is a decree to work on God's holy Sabbath, the opposite of what God commanded.

Pope Leo ratified the Council of Laodicea at the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD

View attachment 367114

I know a national Sunday law has been in the works for a while and Trump has surrounded himself with people who want to tear down the separation of church and state and is it a coincidence the new pope choose to be called pope Leo- I do not think so, I believe prophecy is fulfilling before our eyes.

God's Ten Commandments was written personally by God and spoken by God the Creator of everything and He promised He would not alter the words of His covenant Exo 34:28 Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18 it is His own personal Testimony. Exo 31:18 Who could possibly claim they have more Authority than God Himself?

The pope claims to be the vicar of Christ on earth, but Jesus said:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

He also said His kingdom is not of this world

John 18:38 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, My attendants would fight that I might not be betrayed to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here."

And there is much talk about the antichrist in the last days. The word antichrist also means in place of Christ.

Only God can forgive our sins because His blood is what paid the penalty of our sins but the Catholic church teaches they can forgive sins

Volume 12 The Catholic Encyclopedia, Knights Of Columbus Special Edition 1913 : Knights of Columbus. Catholic Truth Committee : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Volume 01 The Catholic Encyclopedia, Knights of Columbus Special Edition 1913 Volume 02 The Catholic Encyclopedia, Knights of Columbus Special Edition...

archive.org

The Roman Catholic church teaches they are above God's Word and above the Testimony of God by changing God's Law

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

God tells us His Word is a light to our path

Psa 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

The Catholic church teaches tradition, not God's Word is what we are to follow

Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.
—Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

God said no one can modify His Word
Deu 4:2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Pro 30:6 Do not add to His words, Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

The Catholic church teaches they can modify it

The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine law". The pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts a vicegerent of God upon earth
—Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, art. Papa, II, Vol. VI, p. 29.

In the end we will be in two groups, those who have the mark of the beast and those who are sealed by God. The Sabbath contains God's seal.

A seal, as illustrated in Scripture, authenticates authority and ownership. In the book of Esther, King Ahasuerus’s seal—comprising his name, title, and territory—validated his decrees, rendering them irrevocable (Esther 8:8-10).
Similarly, God’s seal in Scripture carries His divine authority. The fourth commandment, embedded in the Decalogue, uniquely contains all three elements of a legal seal:
1. Name: “The Lord your God” (Exodus 20:10).
2. Title: “Maker” or Creator (Exodus 20:11).
3. Territory: “Heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them” (Exodus 20:11) .
This alignment identifies the Sabbath commandment as God’s seal, authenticating His law and sovereignty. Unlike other commandments, the Sabbath explicitly declares His creatorship, making it the “signature of the Omnipotent” .

The Catholic church claims the change in the Sabbath is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority essentially over God's authority since they changed God's commandments when He promised He would not Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Compared to the antidote which is in the next verse

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Is this what we were warned about in Revelation? Where is the commandment to keep Sunday holy- where did God sanctify Sunday? He didn't, it is a man-made tradition leading people away from being faithful to God's commandments.

We are told whoever we obey is who we serve. Ron 6:16

Rome says this:

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

God said:

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

It comes down to our test of loyalty and who we are going to obey. Shall we obey God the Creator of everyone and the only way we are saved, or follow what has been handed down to us over the centuries, the commandments of man.

Jesus answered this question, but will we listen to Him? Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13

Mar 7:7 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.'

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO CURSES FATHER OR MOTHER, LET HIM BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Mat 15:5 But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"—
Mat 15:6 then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.
Mat 15:7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
Mat 15:8 'THESE PEOPLE DRAW NEAR TO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONOR ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.
Mat 15:9 AND IN VAIN THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.' "

Have you consider the Muslim religion? They hate the Jew, they don't worship on 7th day Sabbath, they have their own law (sharia law), and they like to attack Israel on the Sabbath or other Jewish holiday an example of that is the October 7 attack etc.

JSRG · Jul 4, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Sure as soon as you can show me where the apostles changed the Sabbath commandment, given by the authority of God

It strikes me as odd for you to demand that I offer evidence for a claim I didn't argue in order for you to provide evidence for a claim you did make. The whole reason I was citing all of those Catholic sources in identifying the apostles as making the change was to provide context to the quotations you were offering. Your throwing out quotes from some Catholic works as saying "the Catholic Church" made this adjustment as evidence of your claims ignores the fact that the Catholic Church identifies the apostles as being the Catholic Church, and asserts they were the ones to do so. Whether or not these claims are accurate is a separate matter--what matters is what the doctrine of the Catholic Church actually is.

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