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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Israel-Hamas Thread II

In 1995, Israel AND the PLO agreed to divide the "West Bank" into three zones, A, B and C, as part of an interim agreement. Presently, the PA exercises full control in parts of the "West Bank" (Area A), has civil administrative authority in Area B and shares security responsibility (military and police authority) with Israel, while Area C is completely controlled by Israel.

Over the course of seven years, the EU Union has spent half a billion dollars supporting the PA's plan to control Area C of the West Bank.

The rough estimate is that at least half a billion dollars was transferred to the "Palestinians" through various channels between 2014 and 2021, and it is possible that the total was even higher.

Area C, which accounts for around 60% of the land in question, includes all Jewish communities and military installations in the territories, as well as the entire Jewish population. It also includes strategic areas. Around 550,000 Jews and 180,000-300,000 live in Area C.

The plan requires maximum land under "Palestinian" control and maximum contiguity, i.e., control of Area C, and crucial to this is the expulsion of as many Jews as possible.

It is difficult to imagine that European representatives believe they are doing anything other than working to undermine the Jewish state. It is hard to imagine that they are so blindly optimistic as to believe that the "Palestinian" state they are imposing on Israel will be democratic, peaceful, and a good neighbor. And finally, it is impossible to accept that they do not have the imagination to picture what is likely to happen if the PLO successfully implements its plan.

What they are doing is an act of war.
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A Christian response to "No Kings."

I doubt these were from Idaho. They pay people and bus them in.
lol, anything to help yourselves avoid confronting the reality that a lot of sincere, normal Americans have a problem with the President, eh? What demonization of the other side won't you guys believe?

I don't do protests of any sort, but anecdotally, more people I've known personally have attended these No Kings protests than any other sort of political gathering I'm aware of.
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Are the Jews Israel, or is the church Israel? Or does it depend on the context of the passage?

I don't understand what difference it makes whether or not all Christians can be called children of Jacob, as they are called children of Abraham. After all, we are not talking about physical descent, whether from Abraham or from Jacob, unless we happen t be Jewish Christians.

Even then true Jewishness is ours in Jesus.
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A Christian response to "No Kings."

It might depend on where a person sits politically.
I always see the Left leaning administrations/President's as edging more toward as much control as they can get.
Based on what?

Citizens United vs FEC was a case brought before the supreme court where a 5 to 4 ruling allowed unlimited amounts of dark money into campaign superPACs in support of the argument that to not do so was inhibiting free speech regardless of the precedent of limits set forth by the FEC. In essence it was a major shift towards autocracy wherein both parties would ultimately end up having to compete for rich corporate donors in order to have a viable chance of winning an election.

Please note that the democratic appointed justices all voted against Citizens united and the Republican appointed justices all voted in favor of citizens united.

These were the justices who voted in favor of superPACS and for the move to autocracy:
  • Anthony Kennedy (authored the majority opinion)
  • John Roberts (Chief Justice)
  • Antonin Scalia
  • Samuel Alito
  • Clarence Thomas

These were the four justices who voted in favor of the FEC and against the move towards autocracy.

  • Justice John Paul Stevens wrote the principal dissent, arguing that corporations are not "We the People" and should therefore not have the same free speech rights of individuals. He warned that the ruling risked undermining the integrity of elected institutions by enabling disproportionate corporate influence on elections.
  • Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg joined the dissent and famously criticized the decision as the Court’s worst under Chief Justice Roberts, emphasizing concerns about money’s outsized role in politics.
  • Justice Stephen Breyer also dissented, sharing similar concerns about the decision's implications for political equality and the potential for corruption.
  • Justice Sonia Sotomayor
The Left leanings hate for Trump have brought this on.
Can we try to speak without slandering someone? Why blame the "left" for disliking Trump who openly says that it's the far left that he wants to use the military against? Who he also said stole the election from him which culminated in the attack on the capitol.
If it was a different republican in office instead, they wouldn't be doing this.
What other Republican has slandered others like Trump has? What other Republican tried to get their vice president to overturn a fair election? Trump even slanders other Republicans who don't agree he won in 2020.
The catalyst for all of this is their hate for him through the last 8+ years.
I believe it's when he first came down the escalator and slandered immigrants.
I don't like the guy myself and didn't vote for Harris or Trump, but I don't get why they think this kind of thing is a good effort.
What else do we the people have without resorting to violence?
They are fine if their leaders want to push for more control (a "king"), to get as much control, as much as they can. This no kings thing is based in hate and hypocrisy
Like I said can you please try to avoid spreading slander? I just saw you say something bad about others without any evidence. "Who" is "their" leaders? Qualify your terms and show proof of your claims so that you are forthright and credible.
I think a Christian should point out their hate and hypocrisy to them as often as possible. Their leaders are just as, or more, power hungry than they think Trump is.
When we hear bad things said about others, we should require proof. And if we say bad things about others, we should provide proof and not succumb to negative prejudice.
Prayer of course, asking God to work in hearts, perspectives and attitudes of all is good.
Yes, and particularly pray that when slander comes knocking on the door of the heart that we will feel the Holy Spirit grieve.
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A Christian response to "No Kings."

Maybe there should be a One King rally, one king-Jesus

That doesn't require a rally, though. A rally, in this particular culture moment, might not even be dignifying that.

The Church survived hundreds of years just meeting in houses, and much of the worship was done in secrecy.
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AI understands the Sabbath and Col 2:16

Great question — Colossians 2:16 is often cited in discussions about whether Christians are still required to keep the Sabbath commandment (the Fourth Commandment). Let's look at the verse carefully, in its full context, and then assess whether it refers to the weekly Sabbath from the Ten Commandments or ceremonial sabbaths in the Law of Moses.




Colossians 2:16–17 (NKJV)






Key Questions:​


1. What kind of “sabbaths” is Paul talking about?


Let’s break the phrase down:




This phrase appears in many places in the Old Testament, often in this same order, and always refers to ceremonial observances:


  • 1 Chronicles 23:31
  • 2 Chronicles 2:4
  • 2 Chronicles 31:3
  • Nehemiah 10:33
  • Ezekiel 45:17
  • Hosea 2:11

These texts link festivals, new moons, and sabbaths as ceremonial observances — part of the Mosaic (Levitical) system, not the weekly seventh-day Sabbath of the Ten Commandments.


That’s why Paul says in Col. 2:17:




In other words, these ceremonial laws pointed forward to Christ and found their fulfillment in Him.




2. Is the weekly Sabbath also a shadow?


There’s a strong distinction between:


Type of LawDescriptionShadow of Christ?Abolished in Christ?
Moral Law (10 Commandments)Eternal moral principles (Ex. 20)❌ No❌ No
Ceremonial LawFeasts, sacrifices, rituals, sabbaths tied to festivals (Lev. 23)✅ Yes✅ Yes

  • The weekly Sabbathwas:
    • Given at Creation (Genesis 2:2–3)
    • Reinforced in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:8–11)
    • Not instituted as a shadow, but as a memorial of creation
  • The ceremonial sabbaths(e.g., Day of Atonement, Feast of Trumpets) are:
    • Called sabbaths too (see Leviticus 23)
    • Fall on various days, not necessarily the seventh day
    • Shadows pointing to Jesus' work

Therefore, when Paul talks about “sabbaths which are a shadow”, he refers to these ceremonial sabbaths, not the weekly Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment.




3. Did Jesus or the Apostles abolish the weekly Sabbath?


  • Jesus kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16)
  • The disciples kept the Sabbath after Jesus' death (Acts 13:42, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4)
  • Hebrews 4:9 says:



✅ Conclusion:​


Colossians 2:16 does not cancel the weekly Sabbath commandment.
It refers to ceremonial sabbaths, along with food and drink offerings, and religious festivals that were shadows pointing to Christ.


The Fourth Commandment Sabbath is not a shadow, but a memorial of creation and a sign of God’s sanctifying work (Exodus 31:13, Ezekiel 20:12).

2. But Which Commandment Does God Emphasize Most in the Bible?


✅ The Fourth Commandment (Sabbath) is the only one God:​


  • Calls "My holy day" (Isaiah 58:13)
  • Links to Creation (Genesis 2:1–3; Exodus 20:11)
  • Uses to test Israel's obedience before Sinai (Exodus 16)
  • Commands to remember as a sign between Him and His people (Ezekiel 20:12, 20)
  • Institutes as a covenantal sign (Exodus 31:13–17)

The Fourth Commandment is the most directly spoken about by God throughout the Bible. It is personally claimed by Him, reaffirmed repeatedly, and tied to His identity as both Creator and Sanctifier.
Lol AI will agree with whatever position you want it to take. It all depends on how you word your question. Here’s my question and the response.

Why do people think that the Sabbath must still be observed when Colossians 2:16 clearly says that we don’t have to observe it anymore?

That’s a thoughtful question, and it’s one that has been debated among Christians for centuries. The key verse you’re referring to — Colossians 2:16–17 — says:



“Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a new moon celebration, or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (NIV)





Let’s break down why some Christians still believe the Sabbath must be observed, and why others interpret Paul’s words as meaning it is no longer required.














1. Why Many Believe Colossians 2:16 Means the Sabbath Is No Longer Required








Paul’s teaching here is generally understood to mean that ritual observances of the Mosaic Law — including dietary laws, feast days, and the Sabbath — were fulfilled in Christ. The key phrase “shadow of the things to come” indicates that these practices pointed forward to the spiritual rest found in Him (see also Hebrews 4:9–10).





So, according to this interpretation:





  • The Sabbath rest was a symbol of the spiritual rest believers now have in Christ (freedom from works-based righteousness).
  • Christians are therefore not obligated to keep the seventh-day Sabbath as under the Old Covenant.
  • Worship gatherings on Sunday (the “Lord’s Day,” per Revelation 1:10) reflect Christ’s resurrection, not the Old Testament law.
















2. Why Some Christians Still Observe the Sabbath








On the other hand, groups like Seventh-day Adventists, Messianic Jews, and certain other believers argue that:





  • The Sabbath commandment was part of the Ten Commandments, not just ceremonial law — and thus a moral, eternal law.
  • Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath (Luke 4:16), and the early apostles continued to worship on the Sabbath (Acts 13:42–44).
  • They see Colossians 2:16 as referring to ceremonial or festival Sabbaths (special holy days tied to feasts), not the weekly seventh-day Sabbath.
  • They believe God’s sanctification of the seventh day in Genesis 2:3 predated the Mosaic Law and thus applies universally.
















3. The Middle Ground View








Many Bible scholars take a nuanced position:





  • Christians are free to keep a Sabbath rest if they choose, but it is not a salvation requirement.
  • What matters is the principle of rest and devotion to God, not the specific day (see Romans 14:5–6: “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.”).
  • The Sabbath commandment, like the others, is fulfilled in Christ — but the spirit of resting in God remains valid.
















Summary





ViewMain IdeaKey Scriptures
Fulfilled in ChristSabbath was symbolic; not required under graceColossians 2:16–17, Romans 14:5–6, Galatians 4:9–11
Still BindingSabbath is moral and eternal; should be observedGenesis 2:3, Exodus 20:8–11, Acts 13:42–44
Principle of RestNot required, but spiritually beneficialHebrews 4:9–10










Would you like me to show how early church writings (1st–2nd century) interpreted the Sabbath and whether they viewed it as binding? It’s quite revealing how their understanding evolved.

Now watch as I reword the question with the same chat GPT. And notice how I get the exact opposite answer.

Why do people misinterpret Colossians 2:16 to mean that we no longer have to observe the Sabbath?

That’s an excellent and very common question — and it often comes down to misunderstanding the context and audience of Colossians 2:16.





Here’s the verse in context:





“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.”


— Colossians 2:16 (KJV)





Let’s unpack why it’s misinterpreted:














1.


Context: Paul is addressing man-made judgment, not God’s commandments








Paul’s warning is about human judgment — not about abolishing God’s law.


In Colossians 2, Paul is confronting false teachers who were mixing Jewish traditions, pagan philosophy, and ascetic rules (like “Do not touch, do not taste,” v. 21). These weren’t God’s commandments but man-made regulations added to them.





So when Paul says, “let no man judge you,” he means:





Don’t let others condemn you based on their extra rules about how to keep Sabbaths or festivals.





He isn’t saying to stop observing them — he’s saying don’t let others control you through their distorted versions of those observances.














2.


“Sabbath days” here refers to ceremonial sabbaths, not the weekly seventh-day Sabbath








In the Old Testament, there were:





  • Weekly Sabbaths (the 7th day of the week — established at Creation, Genesis 2:2–3)
  • Annual Sabbaths (special festival days in Leviticus 23: like the Day of Atonement, Feast of Trumpets, etc.)







Colossians 2:16 mentions holy days, new moons, and sabbath days — the same sequence found in Hosea 2:11 and Ezekiel 45:17, which refer to ceremonial feast days, not the weekly Sabbath.





That’s why most biblical scholars see Colossians 2:16 as addressing the ceremonial calendar system, not God’s creation Sabbath.














3.


Verse 17 clarifies Paul’s point








“Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” — Colossians 2:17





Paul says these things are “a shadow” — that’s the key.


The shadow Sabbaths (ceremonial feast days) pointed forward to Christ, like the Passover pointing to His sacrifice.


But the weekly Sabbath was never a shadow — it pointed back to Creation (Exodus 20:11). There’s no prophecy fulfilled that cancels rest and worship on
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Hamas now executing Palestinians who tried to help peace.

Hamas executed collaborators., rather than deporting them.
Hilarious. Even if they'd a mind to do it, the exits are shut tight. Comparing the Gaza with the US is absurd as the respective situations and control are nowhere near to similar. Even Ukraine ain't the same as....maybe compare them to South Sudan or the Republic of Congo?
In contrast, this is not the case in Gaza, where a non-elected governing entity exercises power without representing the population's will and enforces capital punishment absent due process.
We don't actually know what process was followed or not.
Drawing parallels between this approach and the U.S. judiciary is therefore preposterous.
I agree - crying that an occupied, failed state in the throes of war and famine doesn't meet the same legal standards of prosperous stable countries is preposterous.

But once again, the initial criticism was the horror of Gaza "executing its own citizens" period; now it has morphed from that to they don't execute their own citizens as nicely as we do ours. Phfft.
  • Wow
Reactions: Vambram
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Question for those who belong to churches that believe in closed communion.

From your OP "“If” Jesus came back to dwell among us humans again in the form of a man. Would He be able to have communion in your church?"

If you think He would, in your open communion church, please explain what you believe communion is?
Not germane to this discussion. I am not
arguing the different views of communion. Would your church invite Him?
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Leviticus 20, Charlie Kirk, and Homosexuality

I could provide more Scriptures to show what some of these things mean, but it doesn't seem like you're that interested so I will just leave it as agree to disagree and wish you well. Thanks for the chat. :)
I know what they mean. Unless you are Jewish, you are not under the law. Christians follow Jesus Christ
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Fired Justice Department lawyer says he refused to lie in the Abrego Garcia case

the administration used it for a mass deportation of more than 100 Venezuelans the government said were terrorists.
What you meant to say was "for the mass deportation of more than 100 MS-13 gangster thugs who terrorized the country."
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B flat B♭

From AI just cause I am lazy today. Here is the measure of the curvature of the earth.

“ The circumference of the Earth is approximately 40,075 kilometers (24,901 miles) at the equatorand 40,008 kilometers (24,860 miles) through the poles. This difference is because the Earth is not a perfect sphere; it bulges at the equator due to its rotation, making the equatorial circumference slightly larger.“

Have a nice day. :wave:
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Is Romans 3:25 in the Greek in ANY manuscript version the same? (Some who knows greek - help)

I'm not going to get into why I know this is a human-edited, AI generated reply. Just a piece of advice, don't get your beliefs from AI arguments about scripture. Don't let AI think for you, analyze scripture, or accept any AI conclusions with theology. It isn't always correct and it pools its data from human responses on places like Reddit. Do your own research, bring it to God and let him guide you, not AI. But I wish you the best of luck in your research.
The heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it. Our own Hearts lie to us, and this seems to be one of the case for you. I'm not immune to these things either. God knows, those are my own words.

Let your response be neigh neigh or yea yea, if it is anything more than this it is of the devil.

I have given you my word and will not try to convince you any further.

The time I spent on that reply I will thus give to the Lord entirely then, if it cannot be of help to you, it is never a wasted.

Do all things for the Lord.

Those are my belleves brother - call me on the phone and I'll say the exact thing, or similar, because those are my thoughts, lol.

AI is a tool that can be used wisely.

The question I'm asking is if the first response I got from AI on this matter - that i posted - is that reliable. I'm only focused on that one reponse. If that response can be proven to incorrect or at the least not taken with the same confidence AI had on it, then that is an argument for consideration.
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Not Woke! Awakened! A Welcome Event

So basically the march was whiny white geriatric kids who are angry that things are not going their way?

In part yes...

But more too. It lets us know some basic understanding of the law is actually positive to teach.

That way people do know what is just fine for the cops to do and what constitutes a lawyer, though the advice is always get a lawyer anyway but I think it's good to know what the cops actually can do that way you know what can be expected out of various encounters.

It saves people from fright I think, because there's really nothing to be afraid of. There can be a bureaucratic process to any encounters, but they aren't inherently unsafe when you cooperate.

That mindset extends to everything concerning the law. They mainly don't have a grasp of the basics, such as what's a presidents role etc etc.
  • Agree
Reactions: Vambram

Do Your Actions Speaks Louder then your knowledge?

But yet He promised He would not Psa89:34 Mat5:18-19 why would He, He promises it continues for eternity Isa66:22-23 because it connects to His identify as the God who has the power to Create heaven and earth and the only God who has the power to sanctify man. Eze20:12 Exo20:11 this is the God we are told to get back to worship in the NC Rev14:7 before its too late. Rev22:11
What you are not understanding is that actually not a letter of the law will pass for those still in the old covenant. All promises to the house of Israel including those in Heb. 8 are still unfulfilled until the end of the time if the gentiles. But none of the law applies to the Christian (Gal. 3).

All OT scripture is Christological and teaches us why we need Christ. However, the audience was always Israel. Jesus preached to the Jews first (Rom. 1:16) so most of the pre crucifixion scriptures emphasize teachings to them. Matt.5 is a perfect example. The terms of the new covenant in blood for the Christians began at the time of the crucifixion and resurrection. This covenant of blood has its own terms including Jesus as our sabbath rest. So find a post crucifixion verse that requires the Christian to keep the old covenant 4th commandment.
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A Christian response to "No Kings."

Yes but we can do that without all the politics. In fact we do that despite both sides politics. If we waited for world politics to align with Christ we would never be able to act. We act independentlyof any politics. Though politics can overlap it is not the basis for why we help the needy.
If I am to believe that to know God is because He gave me of His Spirit of brotherly Love, then it's God that causes me to care about others, not politics. But caring for the poor is still good policy. And slandering them as vermin is not.
Christ also said give unto Ceasar what is Ceasars and to God what is Gods. So He knew there was a political system that ran society for its basics as would be needed for any large group of people living together. In fact I think this is fundementally Gods way. Why Peter said obey the rulers and authorities because they are Gods instruments.
Of course, you're right about Caesar and that form of currency called mammon. I think God is ultimately in charge, but I also know it's not His Spirit that slanders others. Whether it's the Holy Spirit or not I can't say for sure, but I end up asking myself this question--> What if God gave America a slanderer leader as a witness to show those who love slander and those who don't?
But heres the reality. Sooner or later and it seems to me sooner rather than later no matter whether Christians are political. Even when they are not and minding their own bussiness and doing good. They will be politicised from the world as the world will hate them.

In fact when a Christian is doing this Christ like work in helping the needy and being a good example and obedient many will hate them for this very reason. Not because of politics but because it reflects Christs truth which conflicts with their politics.

In the end the world will come looking for those who stand with Christ and example Him. We are either for Christ or not and Christians will be called more and more to declare their alligence and faith to God.
Yeah, it seems the winner in this world is going to be the loser in heaven.
Mark 8:36
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
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