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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

A conversation I am having right now with DeepSeek LLM/AI.

That statement is based on an assumption that God did not grant free will. It does not at all even approach being an argument that God did not grant free will.
100% full omniscience is 100% incompatible with free will. Look back through the thread.

God Bless.
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The Schumer Shutdown

The only leverage the Senate Dems has is cloture. If the agree to vote for cloture in exchange for some future thing there is nothing stopping the Senate GOP from voting to pass the current House bill without modification and not even have that vote or make it meaningless.
Here is where you are completely and totally missing it - they are not voting on cloture - they are voting on a CR - the EXACT same CR they approved and supported just six months ago.

The Democrats are trying to circumvent the Big Beautiful Bill that was passed in Congress and signed into law on July 4 - they don't like it and are holding the military, woman and children and those of the most vulnerable hsotage to try to circumvent Democracy in action.
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Another look at the moon landing.

Considering that all documentation of what linage and tribe the people belonged to was obliterated with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Yes, that's true.

I read a book about a Jew whose daughter became a Christian - accepted that Jesus was the Messiah. This father studied the Scriptures, and his history, to find evidence that would prove that his daughter was wrong.
He wrote in his book that all the Jewish genealogies were destroyed in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed - which meant that the Messiah must have come before 70 AD. He also accepted that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah.
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Don Trump Tilts at Windmills: Rescinds All Offshore Wind Energy Areas in the US; current leases up for review

Then shiver in the dark. That's the cheapest option of them all.
Repeating nonsense doesn't make it more sensible. But I guess you really must believe you are making a valid point.
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Another look at the moon landing.

That because it is.
The tribe of Dan does not have an emblem. There is no mention of it at all in Genesis.
In true conspiracy theorist fashion you have found a verse which mentions "serpent", have concluded, or been told, that part of NASA's logo could look like a serpent's tongue and concocted - or swallowed - a theory.

Conspiracy theorists' maths: 1+1 = 11. Or even 101.
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The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

Paul did indeed say that the law was “added” 430 years later (Galatians 3:17,19).

Yes, Paul is speaking about a "LAW" that the Pharisees were still promoting, that was "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham.

Let’s take that statement at face value.
To add something, it must already exist in some form — you can’t add what doesn’t exist.

To believe this preconceived idea, I would have to believe that mortal humans existed before God "ADDED" them to planet earth. That "Whales existed, before God "ADDED" them to the earth. That is absurd.

There is no evidence anywhere in the Bible which would support such a philosophy. And yet, it is your belief. Isn't God the Creator? Or are you teaching that some other god creates stuff so my God can "ADD" them as He chooses?


Paul didn’t say the law was created 430 years later; he said it was added. That means it was incorporated or expanded in a new way, not invented from nothing.

That is your "preconceived idea". There is nothing in Scriptures that support this idea, unless a person takes a few verses, separates them from the rest of the Bible, inject their own ideas in the Scripture.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 "But this thing commanded I them", saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

Why would the Spirit of Christ place these words in Jeremiah's mouth if they were not true? What were the people commanded to "OBEY"?

And there certainly was a "Commandment" of God" "concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices" for Sin. I posted them, but you don't want to examine and discuss them.

You tell me, "When was the "LAW" concerning sacrifices for Sin "ADDED" then"?

But the obvious answer to these questions, expose problems with the preconceived ideas you have adopted and are promoting. Don't you want further God's Truth, and not man-made "preconceived ideas"?

It’s called the Mosaic Law because it was revealed through Moses — but its moral foundation existed long before Sinai.
Yes, as it is written about Isaac;

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So it wasn't any of God's Laws, Commandments and Statutes Abraham was given, that was "ADDED" because of sins.


God revealed His will and standards to mankind from the beginning. Cain was punished for murder, Noah distinguished between clean and unclean animals, and Abraham obeyed God’s “commandments, statutes, and laws” (Genesis 26:5). None of these lived under the Sinai covenant, yet all were accountable to divine law. That shows that God’s moral principles predate Moses.

Yes, but Paul is talking about a LAW that was "ADDED", so yes, the LAW the Pharisees were promoting to the Galatians, was "ADDED" to God eternal Law defining Holiness, Clean, Righteousness that Abraham obeyed and taught to his children and household after him.

I agree.

Paul also said the law was added “because of transgressions” (Galatians 3:19). But the Bible defines sin as “the transgression of the law” (1 John 3:4). So if sin already existed before Sinai — and Scripture plainly shows it did — then the law must have existed in some form before it was written down.

Yes, this is the opposite of what you were preaching when this discussion started. You said the entire Law given by God to Moses, wasn't "ADDED" until Sinai. Of course God's Law existed, that is what the "LAW" Paul is speaking to was "ADDED" too? Another question I asked you, but you refused to answer.

Otherwise, there could have been no sin, and thus no reason for judgment before Moses.

And there was Judgment before Moses. Cain, the world in Noah's Time, Sodom and Gomorrah. But still, there was no "Command of God" concerning burnt offering and sacrifices for sin. At least no according to the Bible.

Therefore, the “adding of the law” refers not to the creation of a brand-new moral code,

That is true. God's Law is perfect and the very definition of "moral". What is Clean, what is Holy, what is Good, what is Righteous. These Laws of God were shown to Cain, the world of Noah's Time, Abraham and Sodom, etc.

What was "ADDED" was not God's instruction in righteousness. But a "LAW" that was "ADDED" because of "transgression" of
God's Righteousness.

but to the formal giving and codifying of that law through Moses — transforming what was known and understood in principle into a written covenant for the nation of Israel.

"There’s no need to rely on complex religious philosophies — the Bible speaks plainly when read in context".

The written covenant with Israel was posted for your review and discussion, and you refused to engage either one. And it is quite simple.

Here is the Covenant that was ratified in Blood.

Ex. 19: 4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. 7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exactly as Jeremiah 7: 22,23 declared. But the People broke the Covenant, and Moses had to go back up to God the 2nd Time. This is when the "LAW" concerning sacrifices and offerings for sin was "ADDED".

In short, Paul’s words in Galatians don’t contradict the existence of God’s moral law before Sinai; they explain its codification and covenantal administration through Moses. There is a deeper theology behind this, but even on the surface, the plain reading of Scripture supports this interpretation.

This represents your own preconceived ideas, confirmed by your own statements, that God's Law "added" because of Sin, cannot be separated from God's Law defining Sin.

Scriptural Support

Paul’s own writings confirm this understanding. In Romans 5:13, he says, “Sin is not imputed when there is no law,” yet he immediately adds, “Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses.” Death could only reign because sin was already present — and sin, by definition, is law-breaking (1 John 3:4). This proves that God’s moral law existed long before Moses.

Which is my point from the very beginning. But the "LAW" requiring a man who sinned, to bring a goat to a Levite Priest and killing it, for remission of sins, didn't exist until after the Golden Calf. As the Spirit is Jeremiah tries to tell men but they won't abandon their preconceived ideas.

Then, in Galatians 3:19, Paul explains that the law “was added because of transgressions, until the Seed should come to whom the promise was made.” This addition points to the Sinai covenant, when God’s law — already in effect — was written down and bound to Israel as a national agreement.

Your post is not making any sense. You claim a LAW defining sin already existed since Cain and Able, and I agree. But you say out of the other side of your mouth, that this LAW was "ADDED" on Mt. Sinai. Here is the Sinai Covenant, which is the same Covenant God made with Abraham. You can read it yourself from your own Bible in Gen. 17.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, "then ye shall" be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Where is the "LAW" requiring a man who transgressed God's Voice, to bring a goat to the Levite Priest and kill it.


Finally, Exodus 19–20 records the moment of that formal giving. The Ten Commandments, written by God’s own hand, expressed the same moral standards known since creation — now revealed as part of a covenantal structure with Israel.

Exactly, the 10 Commandments wasn't "ADDED" because Israel sinned, just as the Law not to eat of a certain tree wasn't "ADDED" because Adam and Eve sinned. Just as the Law concerning murder was not "ADDED" because Cain sinned.

But the Law the Pharisees were still promoting for the remission of Sins, from the time Jesus cast them out of the Temple, to the time of Paul and their bewitching of the Galatians, wasn't "ADDED" until after the Golden Calf, the great transgression.

Thus, the law “added” 430 years after Abraham was not the creation of morality, but the codification of divine law into a national covenant — a system of ordinances, sacrifices, and priestly mediation that pointed forward to Christ, the ultimate fulfillment of both law and promise.
Again, because of your preconceived idea that God's Laws defining sin, cannot be separated from a Temporary Law ADDED "BECAUSE" of Sins, you promote this philosophy.

And you are free to do so, as this is the foundation of "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, as Jesus also warns.

The law wasn’t created at Sinai —

The "LAW" that commanded a man that sinned, must take a goat to a Levite Priest and kill it for the remission of his sin, was most certainly "created by God" on Mt. Sinai, and "ADDED" to God's Law defining sin, righteousness, holiness, after Moses went up to God the 2nd time.

This popular religious philosophy that promotes the foolishness that God's Law about Loving Him and Loving others, and His definition of what these Laws mean, was only "ADDED" until Jesus came, is absurd. But the Law ADDED "because of sin", requiring a man to kill a goat, "until the Lamb of God should come", is confirmed all over the Scriptures.

it was added in written form to reveal sin and point us to Christ. God’s moral standards existed from the beginning, but at Sinai they were codified into a covenant that highlighted humanity’s need for grace. As Paul said, “The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ” (Galatians 3:24) — not so we would worship the law, but the God who fulfilled it in His Son.

I disagree with this Philosophy based on what is actually written in Scriptures. There was a temporary "LAW" ADDED "because of transgressions" that was to lead sinners to Christ for the remission of their Sins.

Zacharias was Led to this Christ and understood this before Jesus was even born.
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A conversation I am having right now with DeepSeek LLM/AI.

Your argument about this is a non sequitur. An omniscient being existing outside our spacetime knows that one day in the year 1825 an individual human eats a steak. He also knows that one day in the year 3025 someone eats a taco. How does it follow that His knowledge causes either to be eaten?

(If you choose to reply I probably won't reply back, but I did want to ask this.)
Everything is caused/determined from the beginning. What caused either one of those people to do/choose/think either one of those things was already caused from the beginning. His knowledge never steps in and causes it but it/they all originated with the very first cause/event at the beginning. Which was him, or originated with him.

God Bless.
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The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

Ok, I'm not sure what's dubious about that, though.
You don’t mind then that your church started the denomination groups and then was at fault for the creation of a lot more in the 16th century? Ok then.
I brought up the EO to emphasize that, when it comes to the most basic understanding of the faith, that of justifcation, what it means to be right in the eyes of God and whether or not that status can be compromised, forfeited, lost and whether or not salvation is a journey, a process as much as it is an event, I've never heard anything from the east or any of those ancient churches that I could object to- I've always agreed.
Ok but you know that I have issues with that teaching.
All churches that accept the Nicene Creed are certainly more orthodox than those that don't but they vary in how fully well they understand the faith. And, again, that's why we can have serious disagreements here on these forums.
More orthodox? How fully we understand the faith? lol The arrogance. We understand the fullness of the faith just fine. I don’t know if you understand this but all Christians are going to the same heaven, right? Or are you expecting that the adherents of your church are going to a different heaven or have any kind of advantage?
"Let me remind you" that you brought the concept of orthodoxy up here, and have debated others over what constitues orthodoxy, and the CC for its part accepts the Nicene Creed and was even part of its construction.
We can argue this in another thread. And BTW you started it in your post 297 by belittling other churches.
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I think my dad was right on something.

Curses are real. Generational spirits are real. Are we ultimately helpless against them? Of course no, but there are many holy souls oppressed by evil spirits. To dismiss their existence is to behave presumptuously. I put that in the category of “they don’t get it, advice not worth taking”
Evil spirits can attach themselves to objects places, people and families. They are not more powerful than God and can only operate with God’s permission, which He usually gives when we are in disobedience. Blessed is the man whom God chastises, for He wounds but binds up, He smites but His hands give healing.
The spirits obey the hierarchy of heaven. To be free of them, we must obey the hierarchy of the kingdom of God. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done is what we pray. They are empty words unless we obey.
The hierarchy in heaven is different than here on Earth, but we are still on Earth and we must obey the hierarchy God has established here to receive the reward He has promised us in heaven. He who exalts himself will be humbled, he who humbles himself will be exalted.
Women are the most highly honored by God, because they are in the position where they are required to be the most humble here on Earth. Mary is the example, she is Queen of Heaven and Earth, all the spirits are subject to her and she has crushed the head of Satan. God has bound Himself to honor her by becoming her Son and God obeys His own commands to honor His mother and Father.
On Earth she was humble and only tells us to do whatever He tells you, but in heaven, she is the Queen standing at the right hand of Jesus in gold of Ophir. Psalm (44) 45. Wives are commanded to be subject to husbands here on Earth, but who knows where they will be exalted in heaven if they humble themselves here and obey God?
Here on Earth, a man is required to obey God, love his wife and be prepared to give his life for her. A woman is required to be subject to her husband. Minor children are required to obey their parents, and while adult children are no longer required to obey, they are required to honor their parents.
In the Church, the laity are required to obey their priests, priests obey pastors, pastors obey bishops, bishops obey Archbishops, Archbishops obey Cardinals, Cardinals obey the Pope, the Pope obeys God. What if a member of the hierarchy is evil? We are not required to obey outright evil commands, but we are to give members of the hierarchy due honor for the office they hold. We must be like David when confronted with evil king Saul. David humbled himself and said I cannot lift my hand against God’s anointed. So too must we be

Evil spirits love when souls step out of the hierarchy, because they then usually have permission from God to oppress that person.

God loves us very much and has exalted us above the angels, but here on Earth we are made a little lower than the angels and must behave with humility. Our exalted position is put in jeopardy by disobedience. Christianity is not a magical religion in that if we say the right words of prayer, wear a miraculous medal or scapular blessed by the Pope, we can chase evil spirits away.
All those things are good, but the spiritual blessing they hold is negated by disobedience, and the devil laughs when we try and use them yet remain disobedient. Obedience is the highest form of faith, and it is faith that puts the spirits to flight.

A man has authority over his house which includes his wife and children. A woman has authority over herself and her minor children. A man can bind the spirits of his house as well as his wife and children. A woman can bind the spirits of herself and her minor children, but not her husband. If her husband has an evil spirt, she cannot use her authority over him as she has none, but she can humble herself and ask God or Our Lady to do it for her. Obedience is not helplessness, rather humble as fitting the children of God.

This may seem confusing and it did to me at first. I was resistant to the concept of hierarchy, but as I decided to obey God in humility, my family problems began to disappear, and I am constantly being given tools to overcome evil.
When decided to obey my priest and Bishop, instead of thinking that I was more Catholic than the Pope, the problems of my spiritual life disappeared and I received the peace that passes understanding. God is true to His word, and when we have faith to obey, He rewards in ways we never thought possible.
I would love to help everyone else to have and see what I have, but I am not ordained and only have authority over my own family. For personal help, we all must seek proper authority. We can ask our priest for discernment and if not satisfactory, we can pray a devotion to our Lady for guidance.
The devotion recommended to me was the devtion to Our Lady of Sorrows. Pray the devotion and ask Our Lady to reveal the sin or spirt that is oppressing you or your family. She will reveal it to you. She did to me, and I discovered a generational spirt of fear and have now been given the tools to fight it with many successes. Resist the devil and he will flee from you
Satan plays on our fears and uses our pride to get us to disobey God. I cannot give you personal specific advise, but I can encourage you to seek it out in obedience


I learned this by listening to Father Chad Rippeger and his book Deliverance prayers for the Laity, as well as devotion and consecration to Our Lady. I am open to correction, but only to those who have God given authority over me, namely my priest and my bishop. I strive to humbly submit myself to the word of God in all humility, which means I wish to use any authority that I do have to do God’s will, not my own


Peace be with you. Generational curses are real and may God bless you as you seek to identify it and fight it. You have my prayers
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The law, the commandments, and Christians.

It's simpler than this. We simply enter a state of justice as we turn to God in faith-which is "just" because we were made for the union that results and being apart from God is a gross injustice for creation, for us. That justice consisits of the remsision of sin and a new heart and spirit with which to overcome sin, to be holy. If we remain there, in Him, if we don't seriously return to the flesh, we will remain in and grow in holiness. We can also turn back away from Him. Nearness to God=holiness as nearness to God=love. to put it anoither way. If we begin to persistenty engage in unloving acts, acts of the more nefarious and ugly kind, then we're most likely not His, or not remaining in Him. We're not forced to remaiin, He's not creating puppets.
That explains it. You think oneness with God is living in "a state of justice" which was created by remission of sin and a new heart and spirit with which we can overcome sin and be holy. You think we stay in that state of justice by not sinning too seriously, and if we do, then we remain near to God, His holiness, and His love. This view of oneness with God, as I speculated, is wholely divorced from Jesus' residency in our hearts and the benefits (see list above) that are solely dependent on His presence. Without this aspect of the Christian life, the good part is missing.
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A conversation I am having right now with DeepSeek LLM/AI.

Omniscience negates free will, etc.
Your argument about this is a non sequitur. An omniscient being existing outside our spacetime knows that one day in the year 1825 an individual human eats a steak. He also knows that one day in the year 3025 someone eats a taco. How does it follow that His knowledge causes either to be eaten?

(If you choose to reply I probably won't reply back, but I did want to ask this.)
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Teens Who Savagely Attacked Well-Known DOGE Staffer Avoid Jail Time

He very easily could have been killed. The lack of accountability means more of those juveniles will eventually end up in prison.
Could he? He had no permanent injuries, so considering that and how well he healed up in a few weeks, I'm kinda doubtful of your assesment that he was in danger of dying in this case. Considering the outcome of the situation with no permanent harm, jail seems to be a bit excessive. They pleased guilty to assault too, didn't seem to try to deny that. Were they first timers too?
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The History of the “Two Laws” Theory in Romans 3:20

This is true. There is nothing complex about the temporary Priesthood "works" "added" as a Mercy "because" of sin, and was to be in place until the True Priest should come.. God's Laws that define Good, Holy, Righteousness and Transgressions have always been separate from the Law that was "ADDED" because of transgressions (Sin).

As it is written, "To Obey is better than Sacrifice". I would ask you, "To obey what", but your religion it seems, doesn't allow you to answer questions.

"Many", who come in Christ's Name, have adopted and are now promoting a "preconceived idea" that there is no separating God's Law that defines sin, from God's Laws ADDED "because" of Sin. (Transgression)

The foundation of this teaching is founded on the preconceived idea that there is no difference between the two laws.

Since your religion will not allow you to discuss these scriptures, or answer any questions asked of you, in order to preserve, defend and promote these preconceived ideas, there is no renewed spirit of the mind. No growing in the knowledge of God. No correction or reproof.

Just self justification.

I have tried in great detail to show through Scriptures, that there is a separation/parsing by God's Word, between God's Laws that define Holiness, Righteousness, and Godliness, from God's LAW that was ADDED "BECAUSE" of transgression of God's Laws that define Holiness, Righteousness, and Godliness.

But the preconceived ideas of men are most precious to them, and they don't believe in God enough to trust His Word where they are concerned, because they might expose the preconceived ideas as from man and not God. Jesus speaks to this in John 3:20.
Thank you for your response, but I notice several key points from my argument remain unaddressed:


  1. Existence of law prior to Sinai: I explained that Paul said the law was added 430 years after Abraham. For something to be added, it must already exist. You did not address this logical point — the law didn’t begin at Sinai; it was codified there.
  2. Sin existed before Moses: Sin is defined as transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Romans 5:13–14 shows that death and sin reigned from Adam to Moses, proving that God’s moral law was already in effect. You did not engage this scripture or the fact that sin presupposes law.
  3. Mosaic Law is codification, not invention: I emphasized that Moses did not invent the law — God revealed it through him. Your response ignores this point entirely.
  4. Law as tutor pointing to Christ: Galatians 3:24 explains that the law was designed to lead people to Christ, showing that obedience alone was never the ultimate goal. You did not respond to this central theological point.
  5. Scriptural evidence supporting my argument: My references to Galatians 3 and Romans 5 clearly show that God’s law existed before Sinai and that the “added” law was formalized through Moses. You did not address these passages.

In short, while you focus on separating moral law from the law “added because of sin,” you fail to respond to the core logical and scriptural points: the law existed before Sinai, sin existed before Sinai, Moses codified it rather than invented it, and the law’s ultimate purpose was to point to Christ. These points remain unchallenged.

PointStatus
“Added” law requires prior existence of lawUnaddressed
Sin existed before Mosaic Law; moral function already in effectUnaddressed
Mosaic Law is codification, not inventionUnaddressed
Scriptural evidence from Romans 5 and Galatians 3 supporting pre-Sinai lawUnaddressed
Moses did not invent the law; God revealed it through himUnaddressed
Law as tutor pointing to ChristUnaddressed
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President Trump Files $15 Billion Defamation and Libel Lawsuit Against The New York Times

And again:

Trump files amended $15bn defamation complaint against New York Times

Refiled complaint, after judge tossed initial suit last month, also targets individual reporters and book publisher

That's less than what President Trump gave Argentina. South America first!
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Another look at the moon landing.

I agree, as wasn't it the Palestinians who were the original Jews to begin with ?
The Palestinians are the Philistines of the past. They were the enemies of Israel and one of the tribes that Israel defeated to get into the promise land. Genetically they are close to the Israelites which makes them a Semitic peoples. There has probably been intermarriages for centuries.
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