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Jerry N. · Sep 13, 2025

The Liturgist said:
I appreciate your respect for right-believing Catholics, but I think your concerns about crypto-Paganism in the Catholic church are, while not unfounded, the less severe problem; a more severe problem is that of liberal “Cafeteria Catholics” who reject Roman Catholic moral teachings on homosexuality and other important points, and who have become extremely powerful. Everything you hear about the “Synod on Synodality” and the ‘Synodal Way Forward” is an attempt by liberal German bishops to try to secure autonomy from the Church in Rome so that they can change their position on homosexuality.

You are probably correct that “Cafeteria Catholics” are a bigger problem. Where I live is very conservative, and the crypto-Paganism seems a bigger problem.

Richard T · Sep 13, 2025

Seems that the killer is perhaps not from the far left. The words on the bullet casings seem to show that he may be part of a white nationalist movement. What Is A 'Groyper' And Why Are People Saying Charlie Kirk's Shooter Is One? Nick Fuentes's 'Groyper Army' Explained.

Jerry N. · Sep 13, 2025

The Liturgist said:
And you know this how? Have you met any of these supposed Catholics?

Also by Catholic, do you mean Roman Catholic or are you referring to the entire Church Catholic referred to in the Nicene Creed?

I have had many family members like that. I do not know much about Orthodox Catholics, but I am surrounded by Roman Catholics.

David Lamb · Sep 13, 2025

NSH said:
There is a book I read online a while back called "wagging the moon doggy" and it shows a timeline of how all the big NASA and moon events are tied to specific political moments. So the news of the moon landings and the various space missions were all used the distract the public from other news and events. It was pretty eye opening when I read it.

The idea that we have never been to the moon is hard for many people to imagine: but those are the people who saw it on the news in real time, not realizing it was a political campaign created in the same style / agency as the covid misinformation.

I think the reason covid become so pervasive was because of the years of experience they already had testing the 'media takeover' with various fake news events about space.

You wrote the above in response to Apple Sky. Unfortunately, she seems to have "gone missing" again; her most recent post was on 25 August (Post 2522 of this thread). I know she mentioned health problems, so I hope and pray she is well. However, you may not get a response from her.

David Lamb · Sep 13, 2025

Godcrazy said:
All I know is the watchers came down and had kids and the punishment was thereafter. I`m like, if it say it then it is

The word "watchers" seems only to occur in two bible verses:

Jer 4:16 Make mention to the nations, Yes, proclaim against Jerusalem, That watchers come from a far country And raise their voice against the cities of Judah.
Da 4:17 This decision is by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.

Neither verse says that these watchers came down and had children.

I see from some earlier posts in this thread that the idea comes from the Book of Enoch, but that is not in the bible.

Dan1988 · Sep 13, 2025

fhansen said:
Arminius was just a guy who realized that the will of man plays some role in his salvation, and continues to do so throughout his life, and that what man does in his life matters, as James, for one, affirms in chapter 2 of his letter. And that realization is nothing more or less what Christians have always known and believed before Arminius.

He's simply giving us criteria for gaining eternal life. And that's pretty hard to do if we're not forgiven, for one thing. If you want to understand what these things mean, it all boils down to the same thing: you must love-the greatest commandments are still the rule, IOW.

Love obeys and love forgives and love does for "the least of these", etc. Love is what makes us holy as we're also commanded to be. And, again, that kind of love is impossible unless we're first engrafted into the Vine. Love is the primary "something" that we can't do apart from Him.

Arminius was just the guy who put the cart before the horse. Arminianism teaches that you are saved by works, but I don't find that taught anywhere in the Bible.

I don't do good works to be saved, because I'm already saved so I don't need to earn something I already have.

Gods Word confirms this truth in Philippians 2:13, which states: "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure".

According to Arminianism, the above verse is an error. If it is true that God both works in you to both will and do, then where does your effort to do good works, in order to win God's favour and cause Him to save you, fit into the narrative.

You won't find a single verse in the Bible to support this idea that God ever gave anyone "criteria for gaining eternal life". If He ever did such a thing, then it would destroy the entire gospel.

Why on earth would God ever give dead men, criteria for gaining life. It sounds silly to suggest that God asks dead men to make themselves alive. That's assuming you believe what God said about mankind, in

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins". This was spoken to born again believers, but all of mankind, from Adam onward was born dead in sin.

I assume you know what 'dead in sin" means in the Bible. It's obviously not talking about bodily death, so it must be referring to spiritually dead people. Adam was not born spiritually dead but he did die (spiritually) on the day he sinned, and the rest of humanity inherited his dead sin nature.

If Arminius was right, then God is wrong to say we are born dead in sin. If a man who is born dead in sin, can chose to repent and fabricate faith within himself, and quicken himself to life and change his sin nature and give himself a holy nature.

Strong in Him · Sep 13, 2025

Clare73 said:
Judas had no power of his own, it was Jesus' power that drove out Satan.

Yes, but the Scripture said that Jesus gave THEM (the Apostles) authority to drive out demons.
Jesus' power, but it was Judas who would have said, "depart in the name of Jesus", or whatever. Why allow a devil to do that? In fact, why deliberately choose a devil in the first place?

Stopped_lurking · Sep 13, 2025

Isn't this just an argument from incredulity? "I think the vases are seemingly to advanced for our understanding of the available tools (but we don't know how good they were with those tools)." Therefore there's some kind of lost technology or knowledge to be found. So look for the lost technology then. Do they have a proposed mechanism for how the knowledge was lost? Cultural advancements are very hard to erase, have it ever happened that we know of? I guess on some small scale, perhaps before the invention of writing.

Richard T · Sep 13, 2025

NxNW said:
That's been the GOP's goal for years.

I guess I was ignorant concerning the plans of some to remove birth control. Almost 100 Percent of U.S. Women Use Contraception—So Why Doesn't Birth Control Have More Republican Support?

Abraxos · Sep 13, 2025

Delvianna said:
Remember, this is symbolism. You don't apply the same idea. While I see your point, the rules of symbolism conflict with it. While sackcloth is an outward appearance of an inner struggle, these 2 witnesses would have to be two overcomers in general (if you set aside the white rider for a moment) because we know that crowns are given to overcomers (Church of Philadelphia as an example). God wouldn't use people who haven't overcome or won't eventually overcome, because technically that would mean they wouldn't be his. You wouldn't have 2 unsaved people running around speaking for the Lord. So the symbolic reference of the rider being adorned for glory, would be their heavenly symbolic reference, while the sackcloth and ashes are earthly.

Ah, you assume I meant that the two witnesses were initially “unsaved” - I think the contrary - They are called “the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth” (Rev. 11:4), directly echoing Zechariah 4:14: “These are the two anointed ones who stand by the Lord of the whole earth” - Symbolically, the olive trees represent Spirit-empowered ministry, and the lampstands represent light-bearing testimony - so they are not only God’s anointed ones on earth, but also prophets, priests, kings, and light-bringers.

The mix-up is often assuming that overcomers do not endure suffering - their role on earth is one of grief and lamentation, much like Jeremiah, who ministered in sackcloth-like grief - Yet by faithfully completing their testimony, enduring persecution, and being raised up and vindicated by God Himself (Rev. 11:11-12), they exemplify true overcoming.

The Mantle and Role of the Two Witnesses

The mantle of Moses was that of a deliverer - he was called to free God’s people from bondage in Egypt, confronting both human rulers and spiritual powers, and leading the people toward the Promised Land. In Christian typology, this role is sometimes connected to the concept of a “second Exodus,” where God’s people are spiritually or eschatologically delivered from bondage, oppression, or apostasy. The end-times servant, like Moses, functions as an instrument of God’s deliverance - calling people out of spiritual captivity, confronting corrupt systems, and demonstrating God’s authority through both word and deed.

I think I should pre-empt and add that, typologically, the end-time servant is reflected in numerous figures throughout the Old Testament, not just Moses and Elijah. We have Jeremiah, the suffering servant in Isaiah’s songs, King David, the director of music in the Psalms, Joshua, Zerubbabel, and even mention of counsellors to assist him (more than two). While their contexts differ, their mantle is essentially the same — to bring God’s people back to Himself, proclaim His truth, and prepare the way for His restoration and kingdom purposes.

Viewing Revelation Topically vs Sequentially

I see Revelation in a similar way. I view it sequentially and parenthetically. Not necessarily chronologically, but only as a general reading.
The fall of Babylon is a good example of a parenthetical view; scripture says she falls twice. “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great.” This suggests that she falls once (and then, as you say, backtracks) and falls a final time at another significant time. Another example is Revelation 7, which I view as parenthetical, indicating what occurs during the events of Revelation 6.
However, the imagery of the two olive trees, two lampstands, and Elijah, as a lone servant called to restore all things (Mal. 4:5), may seem contradictory when viewed topically if one connects them. Yet, this presents no issue when considered biblically, typologically, sequentially, and even chronologically.

Typologically, the end-times relationship mirrors that of Elijah and Elisha in the Old Testament:

Elijah → Elisha
End-times Elijah → End-times Elisha (the double portion, represented by the two witnesses)

I think your last point is valuable when considering a literal perspective versus a typological one. God sometimes sends servants in pairs, but this is not a universal requirement. The two witnesses reflect the Spirit’s empowerment and God’s pattern of paired ministry. Yet, the White Horse rider represents the broader archetype of God’s authority and restoration, not a literal pairing.

FireDragon76 · Sep 13, 2025

lifepsyop said:
This is who the Left is - not their fringe but their core. They celebrate violence and death against their political enemies - especially someone like Charlie Kirk, who was just a mainstream moderate conservative guy whose only crime was openly challenging Leftist ideology.

Charlie Kirk said that gays deserve to be killed, women should not work outside the home, the 1964 Civil Rights Act was a mistake, and that Martin Luther King Jr. was a person of poor character. Those aren't moderate stances. Those are extreme.

Charlie Kirk also owned two luxury homes. One worth almost 5 million dollars, the other almost a million. Again, not a normal guy. Most people in his generation don't even own a home. However, it does demonstrate how being a right-wing provocateur and grifter can be lucrative and rewarding financially.

lifepsyop said:
To them, that was worse than being a murderer or a rapist, and deserving of death, which they now cheer on.

Very few serious commentators actually are saying that Charlie Kirk deserved death.

Benaiah468 · Sep 13, 2025

Delvianna said:
I'm talking present tense, not future tense. Yes, God has plans for them and is seeking them out to turn to him, but presently, they are lost. They're like the lost sheep wandering around. This is why Israel's actions aren't always the greatest. So presently, they are lost.

Yes, I understand.

Let me put it this way: Israel is not "spiritually lost" in the sense of G-d abandoning His covenant with the Jewish people; rather, Israel's modern-day restoration and regathering is a sign of G-d's faithfulness to His promises, though we recognize a yet-unfolding process of spiritual restoration involving the belief of the Jewish people in Jesus Christ. Christians support the national restoration of Israel as a prophetic event, while acknowledging that a spiritual ingathering to G-d is part of the ongoing prophetic process.

All the prophets agree that Israel’s last-days restoration would involve a two-phase process. First, there would be a physical return to the Land and then a spiritual return to G-d. That is, Israel would return to the Land in unbelief for the purpose of coming to belief.

Paul explains that the gifts and calling (of Israel) by G-d are irrevocable. Even in unbelief, Israel as a nation remains elect, chosen and called by G-d for His purposes in history.

For more than 70 years now, the world has been witnessing the physical restoration of Israel to her land with amazing accuracy. If we see the promise of Israel’s physical restoration being fulfilled with such remarkable precision, it means we can completely trust G-d for their spiritual restoration as well.

Oompa Loompa · Sep 13, 2025

rebornfree said:
'The troubled young kid' is how I viewed him and why I don't want him to be executed. It would be easier on his Dad too, although it might not be right to take that into account when sentencing him. This is not to take anything away from the horror and distress being felt by Kirk's family. The only good thing, in this terrible situation, is that Charlie knew Jesus so is now in Heaven. It's very hard on his wife and family though, but hopefully that knowledge will bring some comfort.

I agree. The death penalty are for the most violent criminals who cannot be rehabilitated back into society. But it will take years to undo all the damage.

Stopped_lurking · Sep 13, 2025

MehGuy said:
I think the general people on the left's thoughts actually carry more weight than what their scripted politicians have to say about this assassination. Especially in this day and age of social media.

What you see in social media is a function of what drives engagement and your own habits. It's not likely to be representative of society at large. Rage bait is very effective in driving engagement.

MehGuy · Sep 13, 2025

7thKeeper said:
Hardly. The people heard on social media are always the loud minority, the vast majority don't post at all. It's pretty useless to draw conclusions from that.

Your point is food for thought.

JPPT1974 · Sep 13, 2025

JPPT1974's Tues Thoughts 9/16/2025
And that He would be
Needing on those to go
With Him and that is where the
Twelve men that would leave their
Jobs and go and be His Disciples as
It would be a learning experience and
How they would have to overcome their
Differences and work together and ask for help.

Dan1988 · Sep 13, 2025

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
You were not quoting Scripture. You said that if I didn't agree with your point of view it was because I have no ability to see the truth because I am lost.

I forgive you. It is easy to forgive this little thing because it is nothing compared to what I have been forgiven of. But I point out your judgementalism because I know from experience that we are measured by the same measure we use...

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Mt 7:1–2)

That's not true, I never said you were lost if you don't agree with me. I may have said that, those who don't agree with what God has said are lost.
If I made a statement based on my feeling and private unbiblical view and you corrected me, I would be thankful to you.

God commands His children to judge each other, our goal is to help someone to stop sinful behaviour and grow in holiness, not to shame or expel them. from the Church.

Proverbs 9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; Teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Matthew 7:24 tells us that Jesus’ words, “Judge not, that you be not judged,” cannot mean that all of our judgments are wrong. Instead, Jesus wants us not to make wrong judgments. Let us not apply standards to others that we do not apply to ourselves.

rambot · Sep 13, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
There have been worse things than what was shown in that particular video.

I saw one where a group of girls (and perhaps I'm using that term a little loosely), probably in their 20's, were doing a "Dead Fascist Dance Party" where they were jumping around and cheering singing the "nananana hey hey goodbye" song.

The thing that should be a red flag to some of the people on the left (or at least make them take notice)

Watch the Hasan Piker episode where he covers this.

Hasan is pretty far left as you can get ideologically speaking (for those who are familiar with him). He's had several very heated public debates against Charlie, and had one scheduled for 2 weeks from now actually.

He first watches the video of Charlie getting shot
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He's genuinely horrified, he's clearly teary eyed and very horrified by what he saw.
(not sure why it's showing the video as age-restricted, it doesn't show the shooting, just his reaction to it)

Later, he reacts to some of these "Haha, look Charlie's dead" videos coming from tiktokers and says "this country is <bleeped>", and urged people from his own tribe to stop joking about it

Progressive influencer set to debate Charlie Kirk begs followers to stop making jokes about shooting

The left-wing streamed had a stark warning for his followers.

www.yahoo.com

Rule of thumb, if someone like Hasan Piker is saying "whoa, you guys have gone so left it's crazy", that's quite telling.

That'd be like Matt Walsh criticizing conservatives saying "Whoa, guys, you're going a little nuts with the Anti-trans stuff"

Fwiw I actually did make those comments in reddit because it got a bit cesspool.

stevevw · Sep 13, 2025

Another movie/doco I seen not too long after the Last Waltz, was "Stop Making Sense". This music seems left field to Dylan and the Band but man this impacted me. Not sure what it was. Maybe a little punk and alternative music mixed with some rythmic blues, even tribal. His band gets right into the grooves.

I think this was almost a new genre in some ways. A fusion. But it sure grabbed my attention lol. I like the wako aspect lol. I think this was a time when there was a lot of experimentation. I watch a doco on Devo and they seemed to be trying to twist punk into modern techno music. But Talking Heads were special and different to all.

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Big suit dance

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rambot · Sep 13, 2025

Oompa Loompa said:
He spoke what he believed to be true and encouraged open discussion on controversial issues.

Him believing that those people are awful, does not make him it better.

JPPT1974 · Sep 13, 2025

JPPT1974's Mon Thoughts 9/15/2025:
Jesus may be the King of Kings
Lord of Lords and perfect and
invincible but He needed to
Really have help when He emptied
Out over in Himself to take on the
Servant of all servants and where the
Disciples He picked came from there.

Oompa Loompa · Sep 13, 2025

rjs330 said:
I feel so horrible for this dad. I cant imagine the pain in his heart.

Makes everyone wonder where society went wrong for this troubled young kid. If I may address the elephant in the room. Society failed him by convincing him that any speech he didnt like was hate speech and violence was an acceptable response. Does anyone think for a second that perhaps celebrities holding bloodied heads resembling Donald Trump had anything to do with this? Does anyone think that perhaps a sitting president calling half the country "the greatest threat to democracy" had anything to do with it? When you had mobs of people throwing milkshakes and attacking people, some even punching elderly people for wearing a MAGA hat, does anyone think that perhaps that had something to do with it? When Trump was shot in the ear, and the internet became flooded with people enraged because the gunman missed, does anyone think perhaps that had something to do with this impressionable young kid assassinating someone because he had the audacity of sitting down with people who disagreed with him and have conversations?

JPPT1974 · Sep 13, 2025

But the way we really
Just want to do things by
Ourselves until we get way in
Over on our heads and how
It will come to a point where
It becomes so much out of
Control and we can't seem to
Keep it under control.

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