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Dan1988 · 2025-10-27T07:49:03-0500

BNR32FAN said:
You haven’t shown a single passage of scripture that my theology contradicts. I’m quoting scripture every single time to prove that everything I’m saying doesn’t contradict scripture.

There's nothing wrong with scripture, but everything is wrong with your interpretation of it, as I have consistently demonstrated and proved that your interpretation is always incorrect, because it's fundamentally flawed.

David Lamb · 2025-10-27T07:47:46-0500

Job 33:6 said:
Alright, so all the above said, it appears as though we currently have 3 positions.

YEC, it's Biblical - David Lamb

Flat Earth, it's Biblical - Apple Sky

Ancient Isrealite Cosmology (which is debatably old earth), it's accommodation, not actual Biblical teaching. -Job 33:6

Alright, glad we've cleared this topic up!

I agree with that. There are plenty of us who believe as I do here, at least, to judge by the content of their posts.

David Lamb · 2025-10-27T07:46:16-0500

Job 33:6 said:
@David Lamb, you see?

I have already said that I know Apple Sky believes in a flat, geocentric earth.

Dan1988 · 2025-10-27T07:44:37-0500

BNR32FAN said:
You think God has to specifically add the words “I command you” in order for it to be a commandment when He tells someone to do something? So Noah didn’t really have to build the ark then? He was never commanded to. Moses didn’t have to go to Pharaoh or lead the Jews out of Egypt? He was never commanded to. Jonah didn’t have to go to Nineveh? He was never commanded to.

In Matthew 10 while Jesus was explaining to His disciples the importance of persevering in the face of persecution He said this…

“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He also said this…

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So are you saying that they will be saved even if they don’t endure to the end? What’s the point of telling them that they will be saved if they “endure to the end” aka “abide, stay, remain, continue” if they’re going to be saved REGARDLESS of whether or not they endure, abide, stay, remain, or continue?

Where is the command in any of those verses? answer only in your imagination, you just made that up.
God doesn't have a problem with his grammar, He doesn't need you to change the wording of His verses. He is quite capable of speaking for Himself, even if you don't agree with what He says.

Jesus was simply stating facts, like If you put your hand in the fire, you will get burned. He wasn't saying I command you to put your hand in the fire so I can prove my point.

David Lamb · 2025-10-27T07:43:24-0500

Apple Sky said:
People have visited a small section of Antarctica, mostly the outer islands. People/Tourists are not allowed to go any further in, or get any further in b/c of the ice walls.

That just is not so. There are many explorers who have crossed Antarctica, and have not been prevented from doing to by a wall of ice. Here is a photo of part of the coast of Antarctica. As you will see, no ice wall:

Apple Sky said:
Yes - Military & Scientific bases.

Whether they are military and scientific bases, or community centres where people go to meet together, makes no difference. None of them report having to climb up and over an immense wall of ice.

Apple Sky said:
No probem

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-27T07:40:35-0500

Colo Millz said:
And yet there he is, interpreting Genesis allegorically.

Is there any rule that states we are limited to allegorical interpretations as authorized by Galatians 4?

Does it not make more sense to understand Galatians 4 as an example of proper hermeneutics, as set forth by the Apostle Paul himself?

Indeed it does. However, it all-too-frequently becomes a license for very fanciful allegorization which, in the mind of the allegorizer, is not only proper heremenutics but also a direct revelation from God of deep and hidden truths kept from spiritually blind folks.

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-27T07:37:58-0500

bbbbbbb · 2025-10-27T07:36:35-0500

Hentenza said:
Please post a verse that says that the Ten Commandments were given to Abraham. Moses did not write them down, God did on tablets of stone on Mt. Sanai which is 430 years after Abraham. Moses wrote the Torah under God’s inspiration.

I’m not ignoring what you say but merely correcting it. The Jewish law included the Ten Commandments. Ask any Jew.

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

This is a wonderful example of religious dissociation. It has been recognized since the very beginning of the church that the Law is only marginally related to the New Covenant, having been put to death on the cross. Paul railed against legalism and the letter to the Hebrews goes to great lengths to explain this. However, human nature being what it is, seems to require a simplistic system of works which satisfy God, leaving the person feeling smug and self-justified. Thus, it came about that some folks decided to home in on ten of the commandments, all of which are open to a very wide range of interpretations. Taken narrowly, however, it is a very easy thing to believe that one is completely obeying them.

JosephZ · 2025-10-27T07:34:19-0500

Always in His Presence said:
As compared to his predecessor?

watch out! people in glass houses and all that.

Joe Biden’s 577 vacation days over four-year term tops modern presidents

Breaking Down How Much Time Biden Spent on Vacation While President – It's Not 40%

The rumor that Biden spent nearly half of his presidency on vacation came from an exaggerated and incorrect Republican National Committee analysis.

Snopes comprehensively analyzed the former president's public calendar, research from his administration and pool reports — detailed daily dispatches from the White House press corps tracking Biden's movements — and found that the RNC's claim was inaccurate. It is difficult to define what a "vacation" is for a president, given that a president is never away from duties. Therefore, Snopes determined how many days he was in a vacation setting.

Biden spent 117 or 118 full days of his 1,461-day presidency (Jan. 20, 2021 to Jan. 20, 2025) on vacation, or about 8% of his presidency. He also spent 66 days, about 4.5% of his presidency, partially in a vacation setting.

Dan1988 · 2025-10-27T07:32:42-0500

BNR32FAN said:
In Romans 1:16 Paul said that the gospel is the power of God for salvation. The scriptures state several times that the word of God does in fact save us.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My WORD, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the WORD of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring WORD of God.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The gospel has the power to elicit a response in those who hear it. So no, when people hear the gospel and receive it they’re not saving themselves at all, they’re actually being saved by the Word of God given to man by God Himself that Jesus commanded His apostles to preach to all nations which was to fulfill His promise that when He is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself in John 12:32. You seem to think that the word of God itself has no power at all.

No, you're dead wrong again and let me prove it. You reckon dead men hear the gospel, but God said it's impossible for them to hear it.

From what I can see, your erroneous interpret of the gospel always stems from your premise that "man is saved by works" or ":keeping the law" but that idea was well and truly debunked by the Reformers 500 years ago. I'm surprised you haven't woken up to it yet.

The gospel is trash to those who are perishing, it has the stench of death to them and they hate it. So what makes you think that any intelligent person would embrace something that stinks like a corpse??? your version of the gospel makes no sense at all.

Colo Millz · 2025-10-27T07:29:24-0500

Fervent said:
... The fourfold meaning of the text has a longstanding tradition, but when it was practiced there was an understanding that the literal meaning is the bedrock and spiritual meanings must flow out of the literal meaning. ...

Certainly. The allegorical meaning cannot mean just absolutely anything, it is limited and circumscribed by the literal text.

Colo Millz · 2025-10-27T07:27:56-0500

And yet there he is, interpreting Genesis allegorically.

Is there any rule that states we are limited to allegorical interpretations as authorized by Galatians 4?

Does it not make more sense to understand Galatians 4 as an example of proper hermeneutics, as set forth by the Apostle Paul himself?

Always in His Presence · 2025-10-27T07:26:54-0500

Apple Sky said:
King James Bible
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape 1 Thessalonians 5:3

John 7:24 24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.

Hentenza · 2025-10-27T07:26:14-0500

Aaron112 said:
YHVH Created the Sabbath. YHVH rested on the Sabbath not because He was ever tired , no, but in His Perfect Wisdom and Infinite Knowledge of everything including what humans think and do all the time.

Kicking against the pricks is not helpful - arguing against God, arguing against Shabbat, is harmful and sinful, not helpful.

As written, Shabbat, seventh day shabbat, is from the beginning. God-made. God's idea. God's Instruction.

He watches to see who opposes Him.

for example: Genesis 1 and 2 - The Sabbath — Chalmers Presbyterian Church
"
So Israel was to keep the Sabbath because God made heaven and earth in six days and then rested on the seventh day. Although, Israel were already aware of the Sabbath before they received the Ten Commandments. In Exodus 16, a few chapters earlier, while Israel was in the wilderness, God provided bread (or manna) from heaven.

God provided it every day except on the Sabbath. And because it wasn’t around on the Sabbath, on the day before the Sabbath they were to collect twice as much as usual. So here we see God’s people keeping the Sabbath before they received the Ten Commandments. And the reason they kept the Sabbath before they received the Law is because the Sabbath has a stronger connection to creation than to the Law given through Moses."

Then post a verse that shows that people kept the sabbath prior to Moses and a post crucifixion verse that requires the Christian to keep the Jewish sabbath.

Postvieww · 2025-10-27T07:25:16-0500

Bradskii said:
Again, the question is asked not necessarily to elicit an answer but to indicate that a refusal to respond shows how nonsensical the position is.

Here is a question to answer. If a boat , plane or balloon with designated terrorist aboard with the intent of killing US citizens crosses our border can we justifiably blow it up? If a truck driven by designated terrorist bringing drugs to kill US citizens crosses our borders, can we justifiably blow it up? You tell me what rationale you use to come up with your answer. That is if you decide to answer.

Bradskii said:
It's equally nonsensical, and further illustrating that the point being made has been entirely missed, by suggesting that 'If Trump ever blows one up we can discuss it then.' Because if he did then it would be considered murder. Seems like if there's a boat then it's entirely acceptable to a lot of peope to blow the thing up. But heaven's...not a truck. Not a house.

It is the job of any president to protect American citizens. Sometimes that includes violence.

Bradskii said:
There's plainly some subtle mental gymnastics going on that I'm not aware of. Maybe you could explain. Or maybe not.

No not really. It actually is simple. If they are trying to kill us we kill them first. The thousands of drug deaths in this country are not acceptable. It appears to me that many liberals cannot accept the fact that Trump actually takes his job description seriously.

Dan1988 · 2025-10-27T07:23:11-0500

BNR32FAN said:
Your faith has saved you. Jesus said that. What must I do to be saved? Paul’s reply was “believe”. I showed you these passages and you just ignored them. Grace for salvation does not precede faith, it is received THRU FAITH which means that faith is the means by which we receive the grace of salvation. Furthermore the word grace isn’t limited to receiving salvation, grace is anything that God does for someone. The words of the prophets in the scriptures are grace, Christ’s ministry is grace, His sacrifice is grace, His atonement is grace, the gospel is grace, the Great Commission is grace. God The Father and Jesus have been bestowing grace upon man since the day Adam was created. Jesus bestowed grace upon all mankind when He commanded the apostles to go forth and preach the gospel to all nations in the Great Commission. So you can claim that faith does save us but Jesus and Paul both said that it does and I showed you exactly where they said it.

Please refrain from playing word games, as it is childish.

No, No, No, faith does not proceed grace. Grace proceeds faith as I have already proven but you keep rejecting what Gods has said consistently in order to give your religious denomination validity.

I have also proven that faith is a gift which God only gives to His elect, so that's another blow to your religion.

Hentenza · 2025-10-27T07:22:57-0500

Delvianna said:
I already did... 10 commandments. As I stated, it was given to Abraham, that Moses then put and wrote down.

Please post a verse that says that the Ten Commandments were given to Abraham. Moses did not write them down, God did on tablets of stone on Mt. Sanai which is 430 years after Abraham. Moses wrote the Torah under God’s inspiration.

Delvianna said:
The rules are the same. It literally comes down to this... I don't need to "prove" anything. At the end of the day, everyone accounts for their life. I'm simply choosing to accept that God's moral laws are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow which is how we know what laws we continually break. Romans is a good argument for this. You keep going back to 613 rules when I keep stating 10 commandments. It's like you're choosing to ignore what I keep saying and just repeating your stance instead. So it seems like you just want to argue for the sake of arguing since you aren't listening and I keep having to re-iterate the same things...

I’m not ignoring what you say but merely correcting it. The Jewish law included the Ten Commandments. Ask any Jew.

A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

A list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that are binding on Jews.

www.jewfaq.org

Apple Sky · 2025-10-27T07:20:31-0500

stevevw said:
Yes Donovan. Another word smith of the time. I actually seen a video of Donavan and Dylan in some room talking and jamming. There was some other people I am not sure who. But Donovan plays his new song and Dylans tapping away. Then I think Donovan asks Dylan to play his latest sone at the time.

Its great as its behind the scenes and you see a different side.

Login to view embedded media

This is great Steve - Thank you for sharing

Dan1988 · 2025-10-27T07:17:22-0500

BNR32FAN said:
Repentance precedes receiving the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2 Peter said repent and you will receive the Holy Spirit.

“Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2‬:‭38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The people in Samaria believed before receiving the Holy Spirit, probably at least a few days before Peter and John received word of their conversion then had to travel 70 miles from Jerusalem to Samaria to lay hands on them so that they would receive the Holy Spirit.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8‬:‭12‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Cornelius was a devout man who feared God and prayed continuously before he received the Holy Spirit.

“Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10‬:‭44‬-‭45‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In Acts 19 Paul met 12 believers who had not received the Holy Spirit.

“It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. There were in all about twelve men.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These facts prove that a person can in fact repent before they receive the Holy Spirit. The examples are shown clearly in scripture over and over. In fact they absolutely have to repent before they can receive the Holy Spirit. There’s not a single verse anywhere in the scriptures that says that anyone received the Holy Spirit before repenting and believing.

That's mall well and good, in theory. But it doesn't work in reality. Why, because you failed to take into account the fact that salvation is not by works. You're still pushing the false idea that God saves people because of their good works.
You have made repentance, faith and everything else a work to earn salvation.

Now the truth of that matter is that man only offers God his filthy rags and his stinking corpse, in exchange for eternal life in paradise and all the treasures of the universe.

You obviously reject what God said about the state of man, when He said we are born dead in our sin.

Now lets see where repentance comes from (I can do this for every other thing, which you think we must do to be saved) but I will just give you the truth of Gods Word regarding "Repentance", let me warn you this will be awful for you but think of it as bitter medicine.

Acts 11:18: "When they heard these things, they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, 'Then God has to the Gentiles granted repentance that leads to life.'"
Acts 5:31: "Him God exalted to his right hand to be our Prince and Savior, so that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel."
2 Timothy 2:25: "[God] opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble. He corrects them gently, in the hope that he will give them repentance and they will know the truth."
John 6:65: "And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father.'

d taylor · 2025-10-27T07:16:43-0500

David Lamb said:
I agree. It also seems to me, as a non-scientist, that a flat earth does not explain why it is summer in the UK at the same time as it is winter in Australia, and vice versa.

-

Why because the sun has moved over closer to the center of God's creation and the same goes for summer in Australia. The sun has moved closer to outer the circumference of God's creation.

Only a moving and close sun could cause these small (90 to 30) temperature swings .

A stationary sun 93 million miles away and an earth tilt is certainly not the cause of this. You can believe this if you want to though.

GoldenKingGaze · 2025-10-27T07:15:22-0500

com7fy8 said:
In the Bible, the word "flesh" is used for the human body and for the sinful nature. But ones interpret this to mean the physical flesh is the problem. My opinion is there is our spiritual level of "flesh". It means whatever in us is capable of sinning, meaning at our spiritual level. But yes we have ones who blame the physical flesh for our sin problems

But it is not our physical DNA that passes on the spiritual problem of sin, I offer. But there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," our Apostle Paul mentions in Ephesians 2:2. My opinion is that parents with this disobedient spirit can infect their conceived children, right from conception. And this is why children very young already can be so about their own selves and able to lie and scream for their own way, versus having a natural tendency to share and care in love as family.

Below, I have quoted how Clare does not at all agree with this.

It seems we have three theories for how sin moves along through the family line. You seem to say through the physical flesh, which I do not blame. And I say the infection of Satan's spirit passes on right with conception. And Clare seems to be saying it is "imputed", which can mean we are born with the record.

Blaming the flesh?? lolololololololol "The flesh did it." It can feel like the flesh is getting us to sin, in my experience; however, I would say the real cause is deeper.

Well, charging me with what I am not guilty of doing, myself . . . might not be . . . just. But if Satan's evil spirit (Ephesians 2:2) passes on to me and infects me with selfishness . . . now it is my selfishness, my problem, and I am guilty.

Romans 7:17-23, and Paul explains that sin is in the flesh, but is not the flesh. Early gnostic heretis thought matter was evil, but the apostles and Paul explained that it was an error. Jesus and John the baptist were not sons of disobedience, John was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. But John had a sinful nature. Jesus had a real body with no sin. He was given a human like nature.

Apple Sky · 2025-10-27T07:11:27-0500

Job 33:6 said:
Perhaps we should ask Apple sky to clarify if they were referring to the former or the latter. Everyone would agree with the former. But I suspect that neither you or I would agree with the latter.

The latter.

David Lamb · 2025-10-27T07:09:53-0500

Tigran1245 said:
Without apostolic succession there are no Sacraments.

Why ever not? The Lord's Supper and baptism do not depend upon apostolic succession, but they are taught in apostolic doctrine.

Tigran1245 said:
And without the Sacraments there is no salvation.

Here are the biblical verses for the doctrine of apostolic succession:

1. Christ as the Source of Apostolic Authority

John 20:21 – “As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”
Matthew 28:19–20 – “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations… teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”

"Disciples" means followers, in other words, Christians. By no means was every disciple of Christ an apostle. 11 of the initial 12 were. An example of "disciples" being used for Christians was when Paul was in Troas:

“Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.” (Ac 20:7 NKJV)

So when Christ said to the first disciples, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations," He was telling them to evangelise people, not appoint additional apostles.

Tigran1245 said:
These passages show that Christ entrusted the apostles with His own mission and authority. The Church’s ministry begins with this divine commission.

2. Replacement of Judas (Continuity of the Apostolic Office)

Acts 1:20–26 – The apostles choose Matthias to replace Judas “to take part in this ministry and apostleship.”

This episode demonstrates that the apostolic office was not intended to die with the apostles themselves. The Church deliberately maintained the continuity of apostolic authority.

No it doesn't demonstrate that. It shows that God wanted the remining 11 to be 12 again.

Tigran1245 said:
3. Transmission of Ministry through the Laying on of Hands

Acts 6:6 – The apostles laid hands on the first deacons.

Deacons are not apostles.

Tigran1245 said:
Acts 13:2–3 – The Church in Antioch laid hands on Barnabas and Saul for their mission.

Saul/Paul was called "as one born out of due time" to be an apostle. The laying on of hands did not make him an apostle, it was part of setting him and Barnabas apart as missionaries.

Tigran1245 said:
2 Timothy 1:6 – “Stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.”
1 Timothy 4:14 – “Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you… with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.”

These passages establish the biblical pattern of transmitting spiritual authority and ministry through the laying on of hands — the essential act of ordination in apostolic succession.

Nothing in those verses specifies apostles.

Tigran1245 said:
4. Appointment of Bishops and Presbyters

Acts 14:23 – “And when they had appointed elders in every church… they commended them to the Lord.”
Titus 1:5 – “I left you in Crete that you might appoint elders in every town.”

Paul commissions his disciples to ordain new leaders, indicating a structure of authority that extends beyond the apostolic generation.

Bishops/overseers and Presbyters are not apostles.

Tigran1245 said:
5. The Necessity of Legitimate Ordination

Hebrews 5:4 – “No one takes this honor upon himself, but only when called by God, just as Aaron was.”

True, no Christian minister becomes such by making a "career choice." But what has that to do with apostolic succession?

Tigran1245 said:
This principle underlines that sacred ministry must be received through lawful appointment, not by self-assertion — reinforcing the idea of succession through proper ordination.

I agree that all Christian ministers are appointed by God, but it is nothing to do with apostolic succession.

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-10-27T07:09:13-0500

rjs330 said:
Exactly. Thats my point. Europe isn't America and America isn't Europe. If you want Europe, you should go live there. I'm not saying Europe is bad. Ive been there many times and enjoyed the visits. Its just different. Its not better. If anyone thinks it is, they should go live there.

America has a lot of things in its Constitution that Europe does not have. It has a lot of rights that Europe does not have.

You keep suggesting that individuals who disagree with the American system should relocate elsewhere. It appears you may have some confusion regarding the principles of democracy. In a democratic system, citizens possess the authority to influence and shape their nation according to their collective will. In contrast, only authoritarian regimes compel people to leave because they seek alterations in governance.

Apple Sky · 2025-10-27T07:07:42-0500

Job 33:6 said:
David, you should be aware that apple sky is a geocentrist when he says that. @David Lamb

She

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