Dan1988 said:

I carefully considered all the above, and found it just doesn't add up. On the one hand you admit that salvation is of the Lord, then you go on to change it to "salvation is a joint effort between God and man".

Your version of the gospel is incoherent, because you can't have it both ways. Salvation is either of the Lord, or it's a joint effort between God and man. Some of your comments seem to suggest that it's of the Lord and others suggest that it's of both God and man.

Would be be so kind as to reveal which one of the two gospel messages you actually believe. Please don't say you believe in both versions as they are mutually exclusive.

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It’s not incoherent once you realize that salvation is a way of life, a journey, a walk, one that a believer is equipped to make successfully but can still fail at. You can turn out to be poor soil, you can believe but be ashamed to profess that faith (John 12:42), you can fail to persevere, you can know Christ, taste of the heavenly gift, share in the Holy Spirit, and still end up rejecting the gift. We can return to the flesh, we can fail to forgive others their trepasses. We can fail to love, to put it another way.

• Salvation is a journey, a process
• Grace is resistible, according to God’s wisdom; man’s will is never removed from the “equation”

But as we invest and express and act upon the gift, picking up our cross daily, remaining in Him, walking by the Spirit, we grow in it, and grow in conviction, in will, in strength of faith, hope, and love-and grow nearer to God in the process, closer to Him and more like Him. And nearness to God is what our faith is all about. That is salvation, and, ultimately, that is heaven, because He is heaven. That's how salvation is worked out, that's how we make our calling and election sure. Anyway, it begins by being grafted into the Vine. Again:

“If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 17:22

When you can reconcile the following verses without employing mental gymnastics to make any of them fit a particular theology, you’ll better understand the gospel:

“…know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.“ Gal 2:16

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." matt 5:17-20

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” Gal 6:7-9

“For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. Eph 2:8-10

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.”

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:10, 12-14

“The just shall live by faith.” Rom 1:17

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:20-22

Larniavc said:

I have now asked my wife to insistently proclaim that I am a millionaire in a manner that is both consistent and thorough despite my vehement protestations to the contrary.

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I just put a Craigslist ad up to have people chant "stop being so milquetoast".

I expect to beat up a deer before the snow falls.

fingers crossed!!

Servus said:

It's about winning over the audience. And truth usually wins over the audience better than malarkey.

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I think that depends on the scenario. A lot of college kids are fed a lot of malarky and are won over by it.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Uh huh...keep believing that...

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What makes you think my country will be under Sharia law any more than it will be under Biblical law?

rambot said:

This is how some people think a human mind works.

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I have now asked my wife to insistently proclaim that I am a millionaire in a manner that is both consistent and thorough despite my vehement protestations to the contrary.

Oompa Loompa said:

This is not the extreme outliers. This is between 35-55% of people who consider themselves liberal to moderately liberal. Some of these so called "extreme outliers" are members of congress!

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All those people are making "death lists"?

iluvatar5150 said:

A good take on things, IMO, from Jamelle Bouie:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/13/opinion/charlie-kirk-assassination.html?unlocked_article_code=1.lk8.vy8R.MrGjYMJUcbTn&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

There has been less agreement about Kirk’s life and work. Death tends to soften our tendency to judge. And sudden, violent death — especially one as gruesome and shocking as this one — can push us toward hagiography, especially in the immediate wake of the killing.​

​

So it goes for Kirk.​

<snip>​

There is no doubt that Kirk was influential, no doubt that he had millions of devoted fans. But it is difficult to square this idealized portrait of Kirk as model citizen with the man as he was.​

​

Kirk’s eulogists have praised him for his commitment to discourse, dialogue and good-faith discussion. Few if any of them have seen fit to mention the fact that Kirk’s first act on the national stage was to create a McCarthyite watchlist of college and university professors, lecturers and academics. Kirk urged visitors to the website to report those who “discriminate against conservative students and advance leftist propaganda in the classroom.”​

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We should not celebrate Charlie Kirk's ideas.

Rather we should celebrate his right IN THE US to express such beliefs. He died as a martyr to free speech, an American experiment. He was shot in the throat while debating issues in the public square.

Charlie Kirk was willing to debate anyone. His life was devoted to bringing political and civic awareness to college students and to encourage them to debate and discuss issues with those with whom they disagreed.
=========
Trump, those on the far left and those on the far right all attempt to punish those who speak positions with which they disagree. There is less and less discussion between those of different views. Most of America lives in their silos and refuse to discuss issues with others.
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There are others that reach out and encourage discussion between those of opposite views. They are view and far between. Charlie Kirk devoted his entire life to free speech and to discussion. And, of course, the first thing folks want to do is to ask "what about this or that" with regard to his life.

rambot said:

I agree.

Usually leadership should have the cooler heads but not with this administration....

White House vows to ‘dismantle radical Left’ after Charlie Kirk killing


I'm going to predict there will never be a clear picture of rhis guys political affiliation because they will never release it.

I don't knownwhy they would never release it..

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Nor Vance Boelter.

Hans Blaster said:

If you don't understand the point of experimental archeology I'm not sure how we can go on with this (or I should bother reading the rest of this). Perhaps you should take some time to understand what that is all about first.

One reason is that they want to understand the formation of the objects they study. Flint knapping is not technique used anymore, so if archeologists want to understand the knapped flint objects knowing how to make them is very useful. Archeology students routinely learn how to make basic ancient artifact classes so they can better understand the context of the artifacts they find.

The experiments on early Egyptian stoneware manufacture have revealed a lot about how they were done. The effectiveness of the tools depicted centuries later in that wall illustration has been demonstrated. to work effectively. There are also targeted experiments on certain things because they have become the focus of speculative fantasies and conspiracy theories.

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I understood what you meant. Science is step by step and its not necessarily about proving any specific overall goal like proving the tools made the vase. But I know most of the other experiments and especially the Russian guys its all about proving the simple tools made the works.

Certainly people use the examples to support that the primitive methods were responsible. I disagree that the wall paintings show that the vases could be done that way. Already some have acknowledged some sort of lathe. I cannot remember seeing a lathe with a fixed cutter.

But then the later dynasties who painted those depictions and made those vases were not making precision granite vases but softer alabasta and limestone ones. So the method on the walls is a true reflection of the method for those particular vases.

stevevw said:

Theres been an interesting situation happening in parliaments, congress and the EU around members objecting to holding a minutes silence for Kirk. The US member chose to give his time to a minutes silence and other EU members began to chant and bang tables in protest.

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I'm sorry, but why should he be given a minute of silence in parliaments/congresses in EU? By the way, you worded that really badly, I have no actual clue as to what place exactly you mean. He's just a US political influencer, not even an elected person. He's not really known in the EU almost at all except for some pretty outrageous things he's said. So... Why?

Soso3 said:

Hello,
Im a muslim and an artist, I want to write and draw a story taking place in some fictional medieval europe.
I could read as much bible as Id want but I dont think I could understand without asking what this faith means on a daily basis ? Like for exemple, what little things makes you think of Jesus or God, when do you look for them in your heart?
Sorry if this is a bit confused Im trying to understand it with my own experiences as a muslim but I dont think I can just rebrand my faith in my characters with christianity as its something different, please enlighten me, write however much you want about your faith Im really curious! And if you have recommandations of what verse exactly to look into I would like it too thank you!

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Even on thus forum perhaps you can see that “Christianity” is and means whatever people want it to mean. Our experience and understanding has been infected by political bias, thanks to our addiction to social media, influencers and poor leadership.

Most of us have renounced authentic spiritual seeking. And the most important thing, our relationship to Christ, is also now tainted with political idiology.

I would say you are free to portray Christians as you perceive them.

Larniavc said:

The problem is that fascists and racists need to be called out. Do they need to be killed? No of course not.

But they do need to be called out.

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But they're being shot by their own. Your point is moot.

It has nothing to do with the "labels being thrown at them".

Straight children might turn gay if rhey read books about gay people and grown men who have never slighted a black person before suddenly turn racist because of
Left wingers call them out.


This is how some people think a human mind works.

Sigh. Good luck America.

A New Dawn said:

No, it is your error. It is Christ who makes us new creatures (that’s called regeneration) and then He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit to work in us to help confirm us to the image of Christ.

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I take this to mean that after years of being progressively sanctified that you are materially more like Jesus in holiness, righteousness, purity, faithfulness, integrity, and love? And after years of self-reflection you are not more convinced today than ever before that the gap between your holiness and His is wider than you ever imagined before?

A New Dawn said:

And you are only partially correct later on, also. The flesh IS corrupt, and that is why sin still has power over us even after we are regenerated. But you are splitting non-existent hairs. Whether or not we have been regenerated, as long as we are surrounded by sin, it has power over us.

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Sin does not have power over us even thought the flesh is a slave to sin. We are not slaves of sin because we are in the Spirit, not in the flesh. That's why people must be born of the Spirit.

A New Dawn said:

But the gift of the Holy Spirit helps mitigate that power so we can respond to its guidance.

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I think we are talking about different powers. Certainly we have the power "to walk in the Spirit" (or "respond to its guidance" as you put it). That power is an innate ability that everyone in whom the Lord lives posesses. And when they excercise that power and walk in lock step with the Spirit, they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That is because the desires of the flesh and the Spirit are in adversarial opposition to one another so that carrying out one's desires prevents the other one's desires from being fulfilled.

But this is not the power that releases us from slavery to sin. Otherwise, we would have to give up on the idea that in Christ we are slaves of God and of righteousness. How can we look at who we are in Christ and conclude that we vacillate between sin and righteousness? Do you not see that struggle to be between your flesh and your spirit that pull you in opposite directions and do you not consider you yorself to be on the spirit side of the battle?

A New Dawn said:

We are NOT slaves to it after we have been redeemed.

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The flesh is a slave of sin, and the new man is a slave of righteousness. How can you say that's not true?

A New Dawn said:

And don’t flatter yourself that you think you have some secret knowledge that is not revealed in the Bible.

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It is true that I am trying to help you see something that I see that you do not see. But just because you don't see it, that does not mean the Bible does not speak of it. If what I'm saying is not real, and is just a figment of my imagination, then you would be right.

A New Dawn said:

I understand the Bible by looking at the context of the spoken and written word. That’s not “running away” from anything. You cannot take something that was said in one context and simply transpose it to a different, unrelated situation and make a coherent theology around it.

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Hmmm... "we are surrounded by sin, it has power over us" and "sin still has power over us even after we are regenerated", but "We are NOT slaves to it after we have been redeemed". That's not very coherent, and it does not explain how we are slaves of God and of righteousness. I'm telling you the truth when I say these things only make sense if they are spiritual.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Until it isn't...Sharia law is coming...

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Don’t be silly.

Servus said:

It's matter of certain people constantly calling other people racists. Racist facist, racists fascist, racist fascist ad infinitum. And not surprisingly someone whom they doubled down on calling a racist fascist, was murdered by someone calling him a racist fascist as in "Hey Fascist catch this!". It's simply a matter of putting two and two together.

And now those people who chant racist facist 24/7 and cheered over the death of one they doubled down on constantly calling a racists fascist, are coming up with one nonsense scenario after another to dodge blame and guilt. And they keep going on and on making themselves look worse and worse by the minute. Can't wait to see what self-sabotaging nonsense they come up with next, while the world they tried to create crumbles.

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I can believe blaming this racism on the left on chriatian forums.

Of course bad Republicans couldn't be responsible for their own actions.

You guys shoot one of your people and blame the left. It happens again.
You do it again.
It happens again, you do it again.
It's so dumb to keep accusing ghosts.


perpetual victimhood while your hatred blinds you and your leaders pull you around by a nosering


Seriously
This is soooooooooo dumb.

iluvatar5150 said:

A good take on things, IMO, from Jamelle Bouie:

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/13/opinion/charlie-kirk-assassination.html?unlocked_article_code=1.lk8.vy8R.MrGjYMJUcbTn&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

There has been less agreement about Kirk’s life and work. Death tends to soften our tendency to judge. And sudden, violent death — especially one as gruesome and shocking as this one — can push us toward hagiography, especially in the immediate wake of the killing.​

​

So it goes for Kirk.​

<snip>​

There is no doubt that Kirk was influential, no doubt that he had millions of devoted fans. But it is difficult to square this idealized portrait of Kirk as model citizen with the man as he was.​

​

Kirk’s eulogists have praised him for his commitment to discourse, dialogue and good-faith discussion. Few if any of them have seen fit to mention the fact that Kirk’s first act on the national stage was to create a McCarthyite watchlist of college and university professors, lecturers and academics. Kirk urged visitors to the website to report those who “discriminate against conservative students and advance leftist propaganda in the classroom.”​

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Do you think that leftists don't try to have list of those who discriminate against leftist students in the classroom? Do both far right and farleft student groups and professors try to remove such teachers?

Sure, they do. Also, comparing such activity to McCarthy is true overkill and tells the reader that one doesn't understand the McCarthy era in American politics. In a sense, it is similar to the constant comparing of Trump and white supremacists to Hitler.