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Fervent · Tuesday at 11:24 PM

partinobodycular said:
To use your favorite word... sophistry

Hardly a rebuttal.

lucypevensie · Tuesday at 11:24 PM

Happy Days

Bradskii · Tuesday at 11:22 PM

Fervent said:
I can't bootstrap it any better than you. I can only accept the word of an external authority, and that as an act of surrender.

That had nothing to do with my request. You said:

Fervent said:
...what we need is some viable candidate that excludes any form of absolute or objective moral benchmarks while maintaining genuine moral character. So far, none has been presented.

Anyone I choose you will reject as not being a person 'maintaining genuine moral character'. So you pick one that does and we'll investigate. There must be one as you said none had been produced 'so far'. You have the whole planet to choose from. It shouldn't take you long.

Robban · Tuesday at 11:19 PM

Chesterton said:
I don't mean to ramble on about this too much, but I had a thought about why it might not work. If you really like a song or an artist, it's because you think it's exceptional, it's better than other things, and better than other things which are similar. So whatever artificial results you get back, they're going to fall short the vast majority of the time.

On a related note, if someone asks me if I like reggae, my answer is that I like good reggae. Ask me about opera, I like good opera. Same with punk or any genre. By definition, great things are rare. So if I search for something like a reggae song I really like, the probability is that I'll get a large majority of results which are not great.

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Apart from Bob Marley, best, very best reggae is this one from U-Roy, in my opinion.

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lucypevensie · Tuesday at 11:14 PM

Get yourself into prison pronto!

PRNTO

Fervent · Tuesday at 11:11 PM

Bradskii said:
Then out of literally everyone, pick someone that you consider to have moral character that we can investigate and tell us who that person is.

I can't bootstrap it any better than you. I can only accept the word of an external authority, and that as an act of surrender.

Fervent · Tuesday at 11:09 PM

Hans Blaster said:
That's not the question in the OP. It is the opposite -- whether an absolute morality is even needed. Or to quote that post directly:

Two sides to the same coin.

Hans Blaster said:
Now in presenting the "absolute morality is needed" side, it might be said that he doesn't do it justice as the argument made on its behalf is the sophistry of Charlie Kirk.

It must be shown how something can be genuinely moral without an objective or absolute element. If it purely depends on whether or not someone believes it to be wrong or right, and not some inherent feature, then the only thing that matters is what you can get away with.

mkr · Tuesday at 11:07 PM

RDKirk said:
An important point is that he does not get into discussions of doctrines. The Koran contains specific arguments against core Christian doctrines, such as the death and resurrection, the Trinity, and the divinity of Jesus.

By simply reading scripture, instead of directly trying to expound the doctrines as such, he avoids those debates. He figures he can't do a better job than the Holy Spirit has done in the scriptures.

Yes, we never go for doctrinal discussion or any matter that lead into arguments. Once we do, we will lose our fellowship.

Bradskii · Tuesday at 11:04 PM

Fervent said:
"Everyone" is not a viable candidate moral framework.

Then out of literally everyone, pick someone that you consider to have moral character that we can investigate and tell us who that person is.

Fervent · Tuesday at 11:04 PM

mkr said:
I felt sometimes that community outreach would do better. Suppose, if I have the funds, I can engage with some kinds of work or help the community like we are poor village. Our road is not good, our school needs some chair, some lacking family.

In a way of giving, I don't feel much to help people specific people or family because they might think another way that we persuade them to become Christian. It is not good, but community engagement would do well, as my observations.

Genuine service will likely open up opportunities, especially in keeping you visible. While it's good to be considerate of how to not offend, you can't really plan a "best route"...but God knows what is needed, so pray and seek how God would have you develop your ministry.

mkr · Tuesday at 11:03 PM

RDKirk said:
I have a good friend whose ministry I've been supporting for nearly a decade, rather specifically as directed by the Holy Spirit.

He is something of an undercover evangelist (along with his wife) in a strict Muslim country. He's operating as a building contractor, and he is that. He does not preach, he does not try to build a congregation. But he also demonstrates by his daily walk, within the boundaries of what's legal in that country, that he's a Christian.

Every so often, a Muslim man will come to him in private and say something to the effect of, "I have seen that you are a very devout Christian. Teach me about Jesus."

("No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." John 6)

So then, my friend will begin privately meeting regularly with that man to read the scriptures. No preaching, no doctrine-pounding, just reading the scriptures. Just reading. He may answer some questions, but mainly he lets scripture speak for itself. They will, over the course of time, go through the four gospels, then Acts, then Romans. At the end of Romans, my friend will simply ask, "What do you think of all this?"

He reports that 100% of the time, if the Muslim has stuck with him through those books, the man will say, "I believe this. I want to be baptized." And like the Philippian jailer and Cornelius, he will have his family baptized with him.

Thank you for sharing it. I was in a Muslim country where I am in India for 3 years, while I do my theological studies. They are good to discuss the matter of this. I had preached with my friends.

Some are really humble.

Now, my people seem arrogant. Trusing only God's intervention.

mkr · Tuesday at 11:01 PM

I felt sometimes that community outreach would do better. Suppose, if I have the funds, I can engage with some kinds of work or help the community like we are poor village. Our road is not good, our school needs some chair, some lacking family.

In a way of giving, I don't feel much to help people specific people or family because they might think another way that we persuade them to become Christian. It is not good, but community engagement would do well, as my observations.

GodDoesListen55 · Tuesday at 11:00 PM

Your soul is essentially your well-being. It is the drive behind your actions, the reason you are here, and the source of your inner peace and happiness.

Fervent · Tuesday at 10:59 PM

Bradskii said:
I present...everyone. Because everyone makes personal choices about moral matters. Now you can present the alternative. Someone with genuine moral character, excluding any divine figures, that we can investigate.

"Everyone" is not a viable candidate moral framework.

RDKirk · Tuesday at 10:58 PM

rebornfree said:
That sounds like an amazing ministry. God bless your friend and his wife, and you for supporting them.

An important point is that he does not get into discussions of doctrines. The Koran contains specific arguments against core Christian doctrines, such as the death and resurrection, the Trinity, and the divinity of Jesus.

By simply reading scripture, instead of directly trying to expound the doctrines as such, he avoids those debates. He figures he can't do a better job than the Holy Spirit has done in the scriptures.

Fervent · Tuesday at 10:57 PM

mkr said:
If I encounter someone on a journey like you in a taxi or a bus, I certainly discuss the matter of life difficulties first and slowly how life would end after this. Then enter the topic.

The topic discussion here is different; I am situated now at the village, not just a random meeting. I have been reported to the military once, and I am taking carefully to settle. Above all, with prayers, I am making fellowship. We have to go on a long journey together.

Taking well notes of your points. Thank you everyone.

The most important thing is to listen for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Do not worry about what you will say, just trust Him.

Bradskii · Tuesday at 10:57 PM

Fervent said:
We need no such test, what we need is some viable candidate that excludes any form of absolute or objective moral benchmarks while maintaining genuine moral character. So far, none has been presented.

I present...everyone. Because everyone makes personal choices about moral matters. Now you can present the alternative. Someone with genuine moral character, excluding any divine figures, that we can investigate.

mkr · Tuesday at 10:54 PM

rebornfree said:
Oh that's a good idea. I tried something a bit like that with a Muslim taxi driver when we were travelling through the countryside. We'd discussed our different beliefs, but as we passed the beauty of the fields and trees I said that I couldn't understand how people didn't believe in creation. It was a point of commonality although the faiths are widely different.

Your example of Paul and the Athenians is a good one. I believe in starting where people are and drawing them towards where God is.

If I encounter someone on a journey like you in a taxi or a bus, I certainly discuss the matter of life difficulties first and slowly how life would end after this. Then enter the topic.

The topic discussion here is different; I am situated now at the village, not just a random meeting. I have been reported to the military once, and I am taking carefully to settle. Above all, with prayers, I am making fellowship. We have to go on a long journey together.

Taking well notes of your points. Thank you everyone.

Fervent · Tuesday at 10:53 PM

Hans Blaster said:
Your inability to understand other postions is well demonstrated.

Refusal to countenance is not inability.

edited to add: the fact that you're trying to make this about me rather than engaging with my arguments is quite telling

A2SG · Tuesday at 10:50 PM

essentialsaltes said:
What if you (or your boss) has access to Obama's time machine?

Sure are putting a lot of mileage on that old thing.

-- A2SG, Hitler, get in the cupboard.....

Fervent · Tuesday at 10:49 PM

Bradskii said:
So we need an example to test that. Is sending a girl to her room an example of a morally good or bad act as regards absolute morality?

We need no such test, what we need is some viable candidate that excludes any form of absolute or objective moral benchmarks while maintaining genuine moral character. So far, none has been presented.

Vambram · Tuesday at 10:48 PM

Richard T said:
Sorry the GOP got clobbered. DEM gov races in VA and NJ, Cali redistricting approved and the NYC mayors race. I think it only gets worse from here. I hope the GOP is careful when they redistrict Texas. a few percent swing and some of those new districts might not be red.

The GOP got "clobbered" in places that are long-standing progressive liberal states. I am not shocked that the Democratic Party appears to becoming the Democratic Socialist Party.

Fervent · Tuesday at 10:47 PM

RDKirk said:
It has to be pointed out, though, that the Greek "Unknown God" doctrine was not merely "myths and legends," but was in fact the God of Abraham revealed to them by their observation of creation (Psalm 19, Romans 1).

Yes, and that same observation of creation takes place with various tribes and people and gets contextualized into myths and legends that conform to their culture. The trick is recognizing where they are onto what is true and using that as a hook.

Bradskii · Tuesday at 10:45 PM

Fervent said:
The discussion isn't about morality, it's about whether or not it is possible to have morality without an absolute morality.

So we need an example to test that. Is sending a girl to her room an example of a morally good or bad act as regards absolute morality?

RDKirk · Tuesday at 10:42 PM

Fervent said:
This is absolutely crucial, though what I had in mind was learning their myths and legends and find a point of connection. Kind of like how Paul used the cultural elements of the Athenians to preach to them and quoted their poets. Learn not only what kind of stories they tell, but how they tell them and how they make their emphasis. Ultmately, though, patient endurance and honest concern are indispensable.

It has to be pointed out, though, that the Greek "Unknown God" doctrine was not merely "myths and legends," but was in fact the God of Abraham revealed to them by their observation of creation (Psalm 19, Romans 1).

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