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9Rock9 · 2025-11-02T08:49:12-0600

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
I don't know what a "Provisionist" is. Actually, I have never heard the term. But my favorite verse on God's decision-making on who He will save is this...

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. (1 Co 1:21)

Provisionism is your standard Southern Baptist view of soteriology. It sits between Calvinism and Armininianism.

They reject both effectual calling and prevenient grace, since reading the Bible or hearing the preaching of the gospel are sufficient for man to be drawn to God.

They also understand election to be corporate rather an individual. Thus, the elect is the Church, and anyone who is in the Church is elect. Predestination in this sense refers to what God has decreed about matters such as who can be saved (those in the Church) and how (repent and be baptized) rather than a supernatural lottery that it's portrayed as in Calvinism.

Bob S · 2025-11-02T08:45:40-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
I guess we will find out, Jesus in action Luke4:16 and what He taught Mat12:12 Mark2:27 Mat4:4 Mat5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 21:13 quoting Isa 56:6-7 Mat 24:20 etc said something different, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of Scripture is going to change that. Guess we shall find out soon enough

Every verse quoted was to the Jews before the New Covenant was ratified with Jesus' blood. In other words, Jesus whole life, until after Calvary, was under Torah. Jesus didn't come to teach Gentiles. He came to give a lost race a second chance. He never taught Sabbath keeping to the Gentiles. He never ever taught Gentiles any of the other rituals Jews were under.

Those of us who are still observing the Old Covenant ritual laws and claim that unless we do observe them, said non observers will not inherit the Kingdom according to all the cherry-picked verses that are used out of context.. That seems to be a huge responsibility I certainly wouldn't want to be part.

It is not what we do to inherit the Kingdom, it was what Jesus did.

Freth · 2025-11-02T08:44:36-0600

Mercy Shown said:
Great AI answer. Finally someone who lays it out. This is good and I thank you for clerifying and defining what we are talking about when we say Sabbath Keeping. I have a few follow ups that are not Gotcha questions. I will not critisize your response.

How do Sabbath Keepers justify the purchasing of electricity on Sabbath?
How do they justify any flame whather it be in the stove or on a burner?
How to Sabbath Keepers justify meal prep on Sabbath and clean up afterward?

I am looking for your answers to these questions and am not looking to debate them or critique them in any way. I really appreciate your candor and bravery to publish what you have.

I wrote that myself, but I appreciate the compliment.

JosephZ · 2025-11-02T08:43:27-0600

stevevw said:
Why was there no protests in the streets or on campuses for the almost genocidal levels of Christian persecution throughout the world

Primarily because those Christians aren't being persecuted by a group or government receiving Western support, which includes billions in funding and supplying the weapons being used.

Hentenza · 2025-11-02T08:41:27-0600

SabbathBlessings said:
My suggestion for what its worth is stop for a moment and prayerfully read this post and the Scriptures posted.

This is what God of the Bible said and He does not change. We do not decide what is righteous or moral God does and He did, so plainly. Not just spoken written in Stone by God, for its eternal nature. Its best to let God be God and us just be His servant obeying Him because we have faith that what He asks is for our own good.

Breaking God's Laws have always been sin and deserved death.

The Sabbath was never plucked out of the other 9 commandments that God wrote and God spoke Deut 4:13 Exo34:28 just because man does so, does not make God doing so. Breaking the Sabbath commandment came with the exact penalty as some of the other commandments

Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Same as the commandment for murder

Lev 24:17 ‘Whoever kills any man shall surely be put to death.

Same as the commandment for committing adultery

Lev 24:1710 ‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.

The God of the OT is the same God of the NT. Mal3:6 Heb13:8

God destroyed the earthy temples for violating the Sabbath Jeremiah 17:21–27 that's how much God cares about His holy Sabbath, the Holy Day of the Lord thy God. Isa58:13

Why is the Sabbath so important to God, He tells us

Exo 31:16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever (notice the next part, pointing back to Creation)
; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’ ”

Its a sign between God and His people. When we violate the Sabbath, its telling God we are no longer His people. We have chosen another god to follow and this is what it does to God when we break it in His own Words. Again, God does not change

Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

Why many in their trial of the wilderness never made it to their rest in Canaan what we are told plainly not to follow their same example of disobedience to enter our rest Heb4:11

Eze 20:12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. 13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them’; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

To think because we are in a majority group, that God would not really act out His righteous judgments because I am in the majority never worked out before if we look at Noah and is not what Jesus said plainly from His own lips. God is not a respecter of person.

Eze 20:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Many means the majority few means the minority

The Sabbath never went anywhere in the NC except on His New Covenant's believers hearts. Heb8:10 2Cor3:3 if we allow Him to Rom8:7-8

The wages of sin is death still in the NC Rom6:23 unless we accept Christ and turn from our sins and abide in Him. Pro28:13 John15:5-10

Jesus was charged of breaking the sabbath and not being equal to God. That is why what He was changed with, which He never violated either, just man-made laws the rulers of the earth at that time viewed as law over the Law of God (not much has changed)

This is what Jesus said about these allegations

John 8:45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Jesus in His own words again is saying breaking the Sabbath is sin, what He was charged with, Sin is breaking God's law 1John3:4 any of the Ten Commandments James 2:11 they never were 9 commandments God of the Universe numbered them by design as Ten Deut 4:13 Exo34:28 and wrote "remember" on the one commandment He knew man would try to get rid of that points to Jesus as our Creator Exo20:11 and as our Sanctifier Eze 20:12

The Sabbath is about our loyalty to God. It runs much deeper than just a day. Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom6:16

Jesus is asking us to love and serve Him

Isa 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

He wants to bring everyone to His house, meant for ALL NATIONS

Isa 56:7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

God in His own words said keeping the Sabbath is doing righteousness Isa56:1-2, so its moral and all of His commandments are righteous Psa119:172 and His righteousness is everlasting Psa119:142

Why the Sabbath was a commandment kept by His disciples after His death Luke 23:56 when His covenant was ratified- it is finished nothing can be added after His death nothing it would require Jesus to die all over again and His sacrifice was one and for all Heb10:10 why we see Sabbath keeping faithfully by His people decades after the Cross just as Jesus said would happen Mat24:20 and the Sabbath continues, for worship forever Isa66:22-23

We are told to come out of our false teachings before its too late Rev 18:4 and I believe we are getting into end times. Our government as well all as other nations have been working on a decree much like in the days of Daniel (why its in this prophetic book) that is going to test the loyalty of God's people by making a national Sunday law that will eventually outlaw Sabbath-keeping. So its going to replace the commandment of God, with the commandment of man, what Jesus said is worshipping Him in vain Mark7:7-13 Mat`15:3-14. Theres been lots of talk on this and I can provide videos if anyone is interested.

Will our loyalty be with God, God's sign between His people and Him, when we stand before Jesus in Judgement Day. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, If you love Me, Keep My commandments, showing mercy to those who love Me and keep My commandments, or is our loyalty what is popular by man that God never sanctified Isa 66:17 or is a commandment of God.

Why in the last days we are told to worship our Creator who made the heavens and earth and everything in them Rev 14:7 which points us to God's seal in the 4th commandment.

The last days are about worship.

Do we worship and follow the one who changed God's times and laws Dan7:25 that the majority follow or stay faithful to God. Our actions will determine this.

Instead of fighting the 4th commandment its best get on our knees and ask for God's help in how we can honor Him and keep the Sabbath day Holy like He said to and keep all of God's commandments, to change our will for God's will.

Rev 22:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The same beast who changed God's times and laws, that they in their own words said this change of transferring the Sabbath to Sunday, is a mark of their authority over God's

The antidote is found in the next verse

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Its faith of Jesus not in Jesus- what did Jesus teach, how did He live, that is His faith.

Lets get back to what the God of the Bible asks. Not out of fear, but trusting God He knows what He is doing and knows He will never take away our free will, so we have to want to obey Him because we love Him, even if it doesn't always make sense or it seems as if the whole world is doing something different.

Again, each one of these verses are taken out and of context and/or are not related to the discussion. I have already addressed all of them so I’m not going to waste my time here. It is a totally nonsensical belief that Christians that worship on Sunday are sinning. Who do you think you and your church are to judge others? In fact it absurd to basically say that God will judge Christians by worshipping Him a day after Saturday. It’s complete nonsense. My prayers will include you and your church to stop teaching error.

GoldenKingGaze · 2025-11-02T08:39:18-0600

Clare73 said:
We have no warrant from Scripture to think that we did.

The Bible is not a complete book covering all matters. Genesis is not a science book. The Bible is quiet and feint on so many things. It seems Jesus saying only He came down from Heaven means we did not.

God formed us in the womb, literally creating us there and then or unfurling us into our bodies? Think of God's equity and the forming of a prostitutes baby over nine months with God's Spirit staying with her and doing the creative work. Having chosen the time and place for the infant to be born that it may reach out to apprehend God. Biblegateway, NKJV Acts 17.
25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’

Psalm 139 NKJV.

13 For You formed my inward parts;
You [f]covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for [g]I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My [h]frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

God formed his body with DNA and his mother's blood. Unfurling the bound up spirit with the fetal body growth.

NKJV Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

NKJV Isaiah 42:5
Thus says God the Lord,
Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it,
Who gives breath to the people on it,
And spirit to those who walk on it:

Our hearts are more than breath in a body, more than a fire in our mitochondria. Our hearts are eternal, they reason.

NKJV 2 Corinthians 5.
5 For we know that if our earthly [a]house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our [b]habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as [c]a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The Judgment Seat of Christ

9 Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.

NKJV Luke 5.
21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts?

Our hearts of our spirits from His breath contain the Spirit of God, reason, have conscience and love...
Job speaks of morning stars and sons of times long ago before the Earth was made. Who are these sons and daughters?

NKJV Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

NKJV Ecclesiates 12.
6 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is [b]loosed,
Or the golden bowl is broken,
Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain,
Or the wheel broken at the well.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

People in NDEs mention the silver cord, and in creation Adam was made of clay and breath, but the Spirit returns to God.

NKJV Ephesians 1.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

GNT Wisdom 8:19-20
19 I had a pleasant personality even as a child. I had been fortunate enough to receive a good soul, or rather, I was given a sound body to live in because I was already good.

YLT Zechariah 12:1
12 The burden of a word of Jehovah on Israel. An affirmation of Jehovah, Stretching out heaven, and founding earth, And forming the spirit of man in his midst.

YLT Jeremiah 1:5
5 `Before I form thee in the belly, I have known thee; and before thou comest forth from the womb I have separated thee, a prophet to nations I have made thee.'

Jeremiah seems to have existed before conception for God to have known him rather than have foreseen or foreknown him.

Looking at the formation of spirit, heart, that has faith and receives the Spirit of God. It is more than a brief breath out but ancient and unfurling into this life with a commission.

YLT Psalm 24.
3 Who goeth up into the hill of Jehovah? And who riseth up in His holy place?

4 The clean of hands, and pure of heart, Who hath not lifted up to vanity his soul, Nor hath sworn to deceit.

5 He beareth away a blessing from Jehovah, Righteousness from the God of his salvation.

6 This [is] a generation of those seeking Him. Seeking Thy face, O Jacob! Selah.

7 Lift up, O gates, your heads, And be lifted up, O doors age-during, And come in doth the king of glory!

8 Who [is] this -- `the king of glory?' Jehovah -- strong and mighty, Jehovah, the mighty in battle.

9 Lift up, O gates, your heads, And be lifted up, O doors age-during, And come in doth the king of glory!

10 Who [is] He -- this `king of glory?' Jehovah of hosts -- He [is] the king of glory! Selah.

Christ Jesus is the King of Glory, our gates are ancient. Wooden gates are never ancient.

Origen: the soul must open its gates for Christ to reign.
Augustine: “Lift up your heads, you gates — you who are lifted up by confession and faith, that Christ may enter your hearts.”
Cyril: the “ancient gates” are the mind’s faculties, long closed by sin, now opened to the Redeemer.

I am persuaded to see these qualities in our human spirits our hearts, by stories of people who have returned to life after meeting Jesus and their angels of light. They recall life before conception and see their silver cords in their NDEs. In the end all our beliefs will be tested by us, when we see the reality, our goal of discerning while on Earth.

Apple Sky · 2025-11-02T08:38:42-0600

Hentenza said:
The Psalms are poetry and contain many great teachings but they use imagery at times to accomplish this.

And what about these verses;

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He hath fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "The world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved."
Psalm 96:10: "He hath fixed the earth firm, immovable..."
Psalm 104:5: "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who... fixed it fast

Mercy Shown · 2025-11-02T08:36:53-0600

Freth said:
The Bible has the answers.

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Remember

Keep it holy

Work six days

Rest the seventh day

Nehemiah 10:31 And if the people of the land bring ware or any victuals on the sabbath day to sell, that we would not buy it of them on the sabbath, or on the holy day: and that we would leave the seventh year, and the exaction of every debt.

Do not buy or sell

Nehemiah 13:19 And it came to pass, that when the gates of Jerusalem began to be dark before the sabbath, I commanded that the gates should be shut, and charged that they should not be opened till after the sabbath: and some of my servants set I at the gates, that there should no burden be brought in on the sabbath day.

Do not work

Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Do not travel

Do not do your own ways

Do not find your own pleasure

Do not speak your own words

Conclusion: The answer is no on all points, because you're doing your own ways, buying/selling, finding your own pleasure or doing work. If you need a fire for heat then make a fire. If you're doing it for the pleasure of it, I would refrain from it on the Sabbath. If you shouldn't do your own ways/pleasure on the Sabbath or speak your own words, then what is it you should do and speak? What pleases God, what glorifies Him. "Remember to keep it holy." Also: Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Great AI answer. Finally someone who lays it out. This is good and I thank you for clerifying and defining what we are talking about when we say Sabbath Keeping. I have a few follow ups that are not Gotcha questions. I will not critisize your response.

How do Sabbath Keepers justify the purchasing of electricity on Sabbath?
How do they justify any flame whather it be in the stove or on a burner?
How to Sabbath Keepers justify meal prep on Sabbath and clean up afterward?

I am looking for your answers to these questions and am not looking to debate them or critique them in any way. I really appreciate your candor and bravery to publish what you have.

Studyman · 2025-11-02T08:36:50-0600

Servus said:
Unless you're not reading what most Christians have had to say about it, you should know full well by now that it's not a matter of rejecting God's commandments. It's a matter of the 4th commandment and the old covenant law having been fulfilled in and though Christ.

This is your philosophy, and one that "many" of this world's religious sects and businesses promote. But when I actually read God's Definition of His Own New Covenant, there is ZERO reference that God's 10 Commandments changed, or that "Fulfil means abolish".

According to what is actually written, and you can go there yourself as it is written in the Oracles of God He delivered into your own home, and you will also find that the only things that changed in God's Definition of His Own New Covenant, was the manner in which God's Laws are administered, and the manner in which sins are forgiven. Both were exclusive duties of the Old Priesthood, "After the Order of Aaron". But we have a New High Priest, and HE has delivered in our homes His Oracles, therefore, we no longer need to go to the Synagogue to hear corrupted men promote man-made doctrines, judgments, statutes, etc. WE now sit in Moses seat, and can receive the Laws of God straight from the Word of God, Words that Proceed from the mouth of God that Jesus said to Live By.

You seem to be teaching that I must follow this world's religions, because so many others follow this world's religions. Caleb, Noah, Abraham, David, Jeremiah, Shadrack, Paul, Peter and Jesus Himself, were all placed by God into a world in which religions existed that full well transgressed the Commandments of God, just as you and I were. Yet, not one of these examples turned away from God's Word, just because they were surrounded by others that did. What do you thing the Parable of Tares is all about for crying out loud.

You posted "The first and second generation of church fathers did not write in support of sabbath keeping, and "some specifically wrote against it."

The Church of God as depicted in the Holy Scriptures, never exalted themselves as Judge of God's Commandments, to add or take away as it pleased them. God's Church and the Elders HE placed in it, promoted obedience to God's Commandments, over and over and over and over and over. You can read it for yourself.

But "many" promoters of this world's religious system God placed me in, "who call Jesus Lord, Lord",, preach to the world that the Bible, and/or the church of God described therein, took it upon themselves to separate the 4th commandment from the other 9, and they created names to call Faithful Believers who strive to "Live By" all 10 Commandments, as "Sabbatarians".

It seems important to not to hide from these truths, but to discern them through the God Inspired Holy Scriptures which is what I am striving to do.

But you are offended by these things, you do not want to talk about them.

It wouldn't be Christlike to continue, I have probably stated here to long in the first place, to my shame.

Apple Sky · 2025-11-02T08:36:15-0600

Strong in Him said:
Psalm 60 also says that God has "shaken the land and torn it open". Another Psalm talks of the foundations of the earth being shaken.

Yes, these are earthquakes but in these verses they are not.

1 Chronicles 16:30: "He hath fixed the earth firm, immovable."
Psalm 93:1: "The world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved."
Psalm 96:10: "He hath fixed the earth firm, immovable..."
Psalm 104:5: "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."
Isaiah 45:18: "...who... fixed it fast

Hentenza · 2025-11-02T08:35:04-0600

Apple Sky said:
Why, because I don't agree with everyone here ?

Because you are getting fooled by lies from people that have been proven wrong time and time again.

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-11-02T08:34:49-0600

Hentenza · 2025-11-02T08:33:39-0600

Apple Sky said:
Do you think that this maybe due to the stars moving & not the earth ?

He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. Psalms 104:5

The earth rotates around the Sun just as the moon rotates around the earth. The Psalmist is merely conveying that God established the earth on a sound foundation that will never be moved, reflecting His role as the creator who brings order to the world. The Psalms are poetry and contain many great teachings but they use imagery at times to accomplish this. This verse is a perfect example of imagery.

DialecticSkeptic · 2025-11-02T08:31:50-0600

So I have downloaded a piece by Joel Tiegreen on Wesley and the atonement and I have borrowed an unused book from the church library called Methodist Theology by Kenneth Wilson. In the latter there is almost no treatment of why Jesus died on the cross and why it worked. Lots of stuff on Arminianism and how we need to cooperate for our salvation. I wonder now whether the roots themselves of Methodism (Wesley's preaching) undermine everything that came after.

I think the root of Wesleyan soteriology distancing itself from penal substitutionary atonement is found in its anthropological commitments, which grew organically into the softening that you’re seeing in the likes of Wilson’s Methodist Theology.

Although Wesley inherited the language of substitution and satisfaction from Anglicanism and Reformed orthodoxy—his sermons repeatedly affirmed that Christ bore our sins and satisfied divine justice—he always treated the atonement practically rather than metaphysically. The “how” of the atonement was never systematized; his primary theological center was therapeutic: God’s grace restores holiness of heart and life. The cross demonstrates love toward us, removes our guilt, and opens the way to sanctification. Wesley’s soteriology is structured by an anthropological and synergistic order of salvation. For him, salvation is chiefly a transformation of the self in holiness. This inevitably relocates the emphasis of the cross, from a focus on how Christ’s death satisfies the penalty of sin to how the cross releases transforming grace. It becomes less about Christ and more about us.

It also shifts the atonement from a Christ-centered forensic transaction to a man-centered universal provision. Because Wesleyan theology is Arminian—universal atonement, resistible grace, conditional perseverance, etc.—it cannot sustain a forensic, definite, and complete atonement. The moment one affirms that Christ fully bore the penalty of all sin, either universalism or limited atonement follows; in order to avoid both, Methodism subtly redefined the work of the cross from accomplished redemption to provision for possible redemption. That is why later Methodist theologians lean toward moral-government or exemplarist accounts of the atonement.

By the time of Wilson’s Methodist Theology, the denomination had absorbed a century of liberal revisionism. The penal-substitutionary and satisfaction motifs had been quietly displaced by relational, therapeutic, and incarnational metaphors. The assumption was that such legal imagery belonged to a bygone “forensic” paradigm inconsistent with modern sensibilities.

So, you’re right: Modern Methodist theology often cannot explain why the cross actually saves. The cross at best reveals love or inspires moral renewal, but there is practically nothing about how it effects reconciliation. That absence is the predictable outcome of its man-centered soteriological commitments: once salvation becomes cooperative, the atonement becomes exemplary or governmental rather than substitutionary. Although Wesley never denied substitution or satisfaction, he did subordinate them to the transformative aim of holiness—a collapse that was inevitable once penal substitution ceased to have explanatory primacy.

9Rock9 · 2025-11-02T08:29:12-0600

So, do you think the Bible is completely without error in everything it touches on?

I do believe the Bible is infallible, but idk if I would go to say that it is entirely without error on matters of history, details, etc. The point is to point people to Christ. It's not meant to be a collection of raw information to mine through.

I do think Scripture is God breathed, but unsure whether I lean towards verbal plenary inspiration or dynamic inspiration.

What about you?

Mercy Shown · 2025-11-02T08:28:10-0600

HIM said:
Why kick against the pricks?

Not sure why you think it is necessary to say that. For the record, your questions are not seen as sincere by me. What exactly are you Looking for?

I have been looking for these answers for a long time. You gave a completely generic platitude on how "easy it is" to keep sabbath.

HIM said:
It is not that difficult. Rest from work and focus on God and His

Apart from silence, this is all I seem to get. Yet it feels like the focus of many “Sabbath Keepers” isn’t truly on God Himself, but on the Sabbath as an end in itself. If Sabbath keeping simply means “focusing on God,” then it seems rather easy—all one has to do is claim the title. Countless hours are spent discussing the importance of keeping the Sabbath, but very little is said about how it is to be kept. It sometimes feels like the window dressing has become more important than the heart behind it.

Lost in much of this, sadly, is the Gospel and the grace of our Father and of Jesus. I was genuinely hoping for some concrete answers to my questions so I could better understand what you meant in your earlier response. Since it was your answer that prompted this, I think it would be fair for you to expand on it—perhaps painting a clearer picture of what true Sabbath keeping looks like in everyday life.

Please know, I have no intention of criticizing or judging your motives. I simply hoped to hear one sincere explanation that goes beyond “rest” and “focus on God”—since both of those, I would think, should be part of our daily walk already.

Freth · 2025-11-02T08:27:30-0600

HIM said:
Ellen White traveled. Mind you she did buy her ticket on Sabbath, but she was in transit during. Was she wrong?

Read her writings and decide for yourself. She wrote about her travels.

Hentenza · 2025-11-02T08:26:03-0600

HIM said:
Says nowhere in the New Testament.

Do not add what is not.

Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the tomb. And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone, and sat upon it. And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. The guards shook from fear of him and became like dead men. And the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Among other verses describing His resurrection on the first day of the week.

Most appearances after resurrection were on the first day of the week. To Mary Magdalene, on the road to Erasmus, to the 11 apostles, to the disciples again a week later this time including Thomas.

The Christian church was established on the day of Pentecost which was a Sunday.

After Jesus resurrection the mentions of the sabbath are for evangelism purposes only.

The disciples gathered on the first day of the week (John 20:19).

The church services were conducted on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7).

The church collected the tithing money on the first day of the week.(1 Cor. 16:2).

The Ten Commandments were repeated in Jesus two love commandments except for the 4th commandment.

There is no post resurrection verse that requires the Christian to keep the fourth commandment. Jesus is now our rest not the Jewish sabbath.

Do not ignore what is.

o_mlly · 2025-11-02T08:24:05-0600

Fervent said:
Nope, empathy is a feeling. It's a feeling of being connected with someone else's emotions, or feeling what they feel.

Of course, empathy is an emotion.

Those who allow their emotions to rule their lives often try to pretend that their delusional disposition is rational so as to not appear foolish. The determination of whether empathy or any other passion is good or bad depends on the act that the feeling moves us to take. If that act is bad then the feeling is bad and vice versa.

FAITH-IN-HIM · 2025-11-02T08:18:39-0600

wing2000 said:
There is progress but we are still heavily dependent on China.

Rare earth elements were exported by several countries, and there was no shortage of supply. China did not use rare earth exports as leverage. The pause in China's rare earth export occurred as a result of President Trump's tariff policy.

Here is a list of rear earth export in year 2023 and 2024.

By the way Australia started the project of exporting rear earth almost 5 years ago and they finished first phase in 2022.

One thing President Trump’s tariffs accomplished is making other countries rethink their trade relationships with the US, seeking alternatives after fifty years of established practices.

ss51 · 2025-11-02T08:18:04-0600

The Nylon 66 was a dandy, H&R single shot 410 and later 20 gauge.

ss51 · 2025-11-02T08:14:30-0600

Looks great! Paper patched if I interpret correctly?
Shooting puts our focus on an area that takes us from the other cares we have, like darts, golf, etc. , and gives us rest from the taxes, job, etc.

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-11-02T08:13:49-0600

Aldebaran said:
AFAIK, MAGA is simply about doing what needs to be done to get this country back on track rather than further into debt which will eventually collapse us. It also means restoring freedoms that are being lost through government regulation and the usurping of power by unelected regulators. It means securing the country from foreign invasion--which is something that seemed to have actually being encouraged by the previous administration. It also means bringing back the ability to manufacture the things we depend on, rather than depending on countries that are hostile to us to provide what we need.

However, I don't see it as a theology rather than a set of policy choices. Agreeing that we need to be responsible rather than careless is not about worshipping the president. Some who don't like the current president like to portray those who agree with his policies and goals as being "worshippers of Trump", but that's not the case.

The current US national debt is approximately
$38.11 trillion, according to recent U.S. Treasury data. This figure reflects an increase since the beginning of the year. So not doing so well on responsible debt management.

Akita Suggagaki · 2025-11-02T08:11:18-0600

jmldn2 said:
I support what MAGA stands for: Make America Great Again.

But what does that mean to you? How would you describe a great America?

Strong in Him · 2025-11-02T08:08:57-0600

Apple Sky said:
But the Bible states that earth is unmovable.

The Bible is not a science textbook.
The earth cannot be moved by anyone, or anything, else. It cannot be moved from it's place in the Solar system - i.e further away from the sun than Mercury, or closer to it that Neptune.
That doesn't mean that the earth will never move. Otherwise there wouldn't be earthquakes, like there were in the days of Elijah, and before the resurrection. If there was an earthquake, the earth moved.
Psalm 60 also says that God has "shaken the land and torn it open". Another Psalm talks of the foundations of the earth being shaken.

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