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Morality without Absolute Morality

Fervent

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What does truly mean here? Because the feelings are true and they define wrong or right for me.
Feelings are neither true or false. How can something be right or wrong without relating to some actual state of affairs? To be consistent, you must maintain that right or wrong aren't genuine states with any real referent just emotional reactions.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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Feelings are neither true or false. How can something be right or wrong without relating to some actual state of affairs? To be consistent, you must maintain that right or wrong aren't genuine states with any real referent just emotional reactions.
Genuine states? They are genuine emotional states. They are emotional reactions, does that make them less real? That they are private to me, isn't problematic.
 
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partinobodycular

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You assume that i have no test for revelation, without inquiring whether or not I do and what that test may be.

Yes, I assume that you have no test that's verifiable. Thus making your claims no more legitimate than @Bradskii's. Therefore even under your scenario Hume's argument still applies. You can't get an ought from an is.

Now the thing is that you can admit this and gain my respect by demonstrating that you're willing to admit when your argument is flawed, or you can deny it and demonstrate that you're unwilling to do any such thing.

The choice is yours.
 
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Fervent

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Genuine states? They are genuine emotional states. They are emotional reactions, does that make them less real? That they are private to me, isn't problematic.
It's not simply that they are private to you, but you must regard them as fictitious because there is nothing they relate to in reality.
 
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Fervent

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Yes, I assume that you have no test that's verifiable. Thus making your claims no more legitimate than @Bradskii's. Therefore even under your scenario Hume's argument still applies. You can't get an ought from an is.
Verifiable in what sense? And to what degree?
Now the thing is that you can admit this and gain my respect by demonstrating that you're willing to admit when your argument is flawed, or you can deny it and demonstrate that you're unwilling to do any such thing.
I have no interest in gaining your respect, but your et tu tu isn't applicable because I make no claims of reasoning my way to morality. So I agree Hume's argument applies to me as much as @Bradskii, i'm just not under illusions that I can bootstrap my way to morality.
The choice is yours.
you've provided no reason for me to relent, nor offered anything by way of counter.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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It's not simply that they are private to you, but you must regard them as fictitious because there is nothing they relate to in reality.
What is fictitious about feelings? Or preferences?
 
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Fervent

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What is fictitious about feelings? Or preferences?
It's not the feelings or preferences that are fictitious, but the "moral" character or content. The sense of right and wrong must be fictitious if there is no referant outside of your feelings.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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It's not the feelings or preferences that are fictitious, but the "moral" character or content. The sense of right and wrong must be fictitious if there is no referant outside of your feelings.
That is determined by the experience of the feeling in my view. I have never seen or heard a convincing definition of rightness or wrongness as stand-alone properties outside of some person.
 
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partinobodycular

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So I agree Hume's argument applies to me as much as @Bradskii,

Which means that there's no validity to the claim that people 'ought' to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Your claim is as much sophistry as @Bradskii's claims of morality are. Unfortunately for you Hume's argument comes with unintended consequences.
 
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Fervent

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That is determined by the experience of the feeling in my view. I have never seen or heard a convincing definition of rightness or wrongness as stand-alone properties outside of some person.
So you're creating a fiction based purely on your emotions. Seems a rather pointless game to play, if you genuinely don't believe there is a rightness or wrongness inherent in moral activities in any real sense how can you hold to any sort of preference? It's inconsistent.
 
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Fervent

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Which means that there's no validity to the claim that people 'ought' to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Your claim is as much sophistry as @Bradskii's claims of morality are. Unfortunately for you Hume's argument comes with unintended consequences.
Still pressing that false equivalence, I see.
 
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Bradskii

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I'm not deflecting, I'm directly telling you I see your questions as a distraction and as such find no compelling reason to satisfy your demands.
This couldn't get any weirder. The discussion is about morality and if I say 'Well, here's an example of a moral question. What do you think?' you refuse to answer. But, as I said...we know why. That little corner you've painted yourself into cannot allow personal decisions on moral matters.
 
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Stopped_lurking

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So you're creating a fiction based purely on your emotions. Seems a rather pointless game to play, if you genuinely don't believe there is a rightness or wrongness inherent in moral activities in any real sense how can you hold to any sort of preference? It's inconsistent.
I like to feel good, hence I try to act in accordance with what I perceive as moral feelings. Where is the inconsistency? Rightness and wrongness are the emotional content of those feelings.
 
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Fervent

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Show me how it's false again. That went so well the first time.
I can repeat what I said that you offered no rebuttal to, but if you're not going to engage and just refuse to respond I'll save my energy.
 
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Fervent

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This couldn't get any weirder. The discussion is about morality and if I say 'Well, here's an example of a moral question. What do you think?' you refuse to answer. But, as I said...we know why. That little corner you've painted yourself into cannot allow personal decisions on moral matters.
The discussion isn't about morality, it's about whether or not it is possible to have morality without an absolute morality. So your questions in the middle of our exchange are nothing but distractions to the fact that your bootstrapping is futile.
 
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Bradskii

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When the problem is an inability to bootstrap our way to prescription, relying on an external source isn't a violation. The philosophical problem reveals the need for such a source. So yeah, revelation changes the equation.
So revelation gives you the answer to moral questions. So tell me, what does revelation say about the girl honouring her abusive father or the one locked in her room?
 
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Fervent

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So revelation gives you the answer to moral questions. So tell me, what does revelation say about the girl honouring her abusive father or the one locked in her room?
You can keep trying to distract, but you're wasting your energy repeating questions i've already made clear not only that i won't answer them but why. Repeating the questions doesn't make your "reasoning" any more salient.
 
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Bradskii

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The discussion isn't about morality, it's about whether or not it is possible to have morality without an absolute morality.
So we need an example to test that. Is sending a girl to her room an example of a morally good or bad act as regards absolute morality?
 
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Fervent

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So we need an example to test that. Is sending a girl to her room an example of a morally good or bad act as regards absolute morality?
We need no such test, what we need is some viable candidate that excludes any form of absolute or objective moral benchmarks while maintaining genuine moral character. So far, none has been presented.
 
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