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A conversation about unity.

Saint Justin Martyr stated the following:
“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

This is a perfect example of the literary sin of presentism. In short presentism is the tendency to interpret past texts in terms of modern concepts. You are using this text to prove transubstantiation which is the literal change of the elements to Christ actual flesh and blood while retaining the appearance of bread and wine. Let’s examine your interpretation.

1. The Christians in the second century totally despised the thought of eating actual flesh and drinking actual blood. Justin Martyr writes in chapter 12 of his second apology:

“For I myself, too, when I was delighting in the doctrines of Plato, and heard the Christians slandered, and saw them fearless of death, and of all other things which are counted fearful, perceived that it was impossible that they could be living in wickedness and pleasure. For what sensual or intemperate man, or who that counts it good to feast on human flesh,[4] could welcome death that he might be deprived of his enjoyments, and would not rather continue always the present life, and attempt to escape the observation of the rulers; and much less would he denounce himself when the consequence would be death?”

Even Tatian, Justin Martyr’s own student, decries the thought of eating human flesh. This is an excerpt from his “Address to the Greeks” chapter 25.

“Why do you hate those who follow the word of God, as if they were the vilest of mankind? It is not we who eat human flesh --they among you who assert such a thing have been suborned as false witnesses; it is among you that Pelops is made a supper for the gods, although beloved by Poseidon, and Kronos devours his children, and Zeus swallows Metis.”

2. Justin Marty is not describing an ontological change in the elements but a spiritual change of those receiving it. In “Dialogue with Trypho” chapter 41 Justin states the following.

“And the offering of fine flour, sirs," I said, "which was prescribed to be presented on behalf of those purified from leprosy, was a type of the bread of the Eucharist, the celebration of which our Lord Jesus Christ prescribed, in remembrance of the suffering which He endured on behalf of those who are purified in soul from all iniquity, in order that we may at the same time thank God for having created the world, with all things therein, for the sake of man, and for delivering us from the evil in which we were, and for utterly overthrowing principalities and powers by Him who suffered according to His will.”

Here Justin describes the celebration of the Eucharist as a remembrance of the suffering which Christ endured on behalf of those who are purified in soul. Here there is no change in elements and the reason is one of remembrance of Jesus suffering.

In chapter 70 of the same book he states:

“Now it is evident, that in this prophecy[allusion is made] to the bread which our Christ gave us to eat, in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers, for whom also He suffered; and to the cup which He gave us to drink, in remembrance of His own blood, with giving of thanks.”

Here he plainly states that both the bread and the cup are given in remembrance of His own blood and the bread in remembrance of His being made flesh for the sake of His believers. There is nothing here about transubstantiation. In fact he is not even talking about real presence. You would think that if Justin was teaching transubstantiation or even real presence that his own student would teach the same.

3. Let’s examine the context of the portion that you posted. You posted chapter 66 but let’s set the scene right before the giving of the Eucharist in chapter 65.

“But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and has assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren are assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized [illuminated] person, and for all others in every place, that we may be counted worthy, now that we have learned the truth, by our works also to be found good citizens and keepers of the commandments, so that we may be saved with an everlasting salvation. Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to genoito [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion.”

Here the elements are brought out and prayers by all present are given finishing with amen. The elements are bread and wine mixed with water. There is nothing about a consecration of the elements to change ontologically to the real flesh and blood of Christ. Even here the emphasis is on a meal of thanksgiving and praise. The food is said to be bread and wine mixed with water and after the prayers and blessings the meal is said to still be bread and wine mixed with water.

Your conclusion drawn from chapter 66 to show transubstantiation or even real presence is clouded by you assigning today’s beliefs to an antique text. There is zero evidence that Justin Martyr was teaching transubstantiation or even real presence. In fact, his own words proves the opposite.
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Are we spiritual beings or just spiritually minded and/or spiritually filled?

like you're saying the original sin is self awareness. i don't believe that.
The original sin was putting our will ahead of the will of God, thus learning self-awareness as a result. Sin to this day is the result of putting our will ahead of God and others.
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The response to Minnesota shooting is a toxic mix of ideology and political pathology

Another one went off the deep end in Maine quite recently----I think it must be something in the hormone treatments that causes some kind of violent reaction in their brains. :(

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Are we spiritual beings or just spiritually minded and/or spiritually filled?

Can you provide more Scripture. I believe you are wrong.
This scripture talks directly. How many ways does it need be said? Jesus died to bring about the Kingdom. It's about them. We are secondary, but in out arrogance like to make everything about us.
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Is belief/non-belief a morally culpable state?

What we believe shapes what we believe to be moral, and what we believe to be trustworthy. But Truth doesn't need to be sought, it's tautological. It's when we stop trying to find it on our own that we are able to accept it for what it is. Which is where those who don't believe become culpable, since their supposed efforts sto find what is true is in fact attempts to deny the undeniable.
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DeSantis to make Florida first state to end *all* vaccine mandates for schools

Ridiculous and inane hyperbole aside, I will be interested to see how this affects vaccine uptake.

Florida isn't ending vaccination. They're ending vaccination mandates. I guess the people making these apoplectic predictions must believe that the majority of people are vaccinating their children simply because they MUST. I tend to believe that most people vaccinate their children because they think it's in their best interest to do so, not because they're being forced to do so.

Sure, there are those who refuse vaccines, but that happens now with exemptions for all kinds of reasons. I will be curious to see how the removal of mandates affects vaccine uptake.
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Minnesota school shooting came after bishops’ pleas for security went unanswered

Isn't it odd how all those businesses (bakeries, caterers, venue vendors) who wanted to opt out of having anything to do with "gay weddings" had the full force of the law come down on them hard?

And here all this time I thought those businesses were privately owned. Private. Businesses.

Hence, the government had no business meddling in their affairs.

Sorry about that.
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What is God's purpose for our dreams?

Do you actually think that every single person on Earth at this point in time is doing God's work?
There is not anything that God created, that He does not use for the purpose of its existence.

This is word for word what I stated.

Do you see the word "WORK" anywhere in my statement?
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A conversation about unity.

It was the teaching on the Eucharist where Judas was lost, he could not accept that Jesus was to literally give His Body and Blood, I can see the same in this thread.

John 6:65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him.
6:66 And he said: Therefore did I say to you that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.
6:67 After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
6:68 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away?
6:69 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.
6:70 And we have believed and have known that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
6:71 Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve? And one of you is a devil.
6:72 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.
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Is belief/non-belief a morally culpable state?

The best bet is someone who has had the time and resources to study medieval husbandry in detail.
It still all boils down to a matter of personal choice. Look at the number of scholars that have spent 40-50 years on Jesus and the New Testament yet still do not agree.
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What is God's purpose for our dreams?

Not really, you do not have to ask God to use you. God uses everyone every day.
There is not anything that God created, that He does not use for the purpose of its existence.
You are always being used by God. And I think that is wonderful.
That's absolutely not true. Satan uses people all the time. Do you actually think that every single person on Earth at this point in time is doing God's work? That's an extremely idealistic way to view the world which I don't think is realistic at all. So if a person rug pulled millions of people in a crypto scam do you think that is someone being used by God to do that? Do you think it pleases God to exploit, steal, and take advantage of people for self gain? Not all works in the world are works that please God.
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Are we seeing another spiritual awakening?

Here’s a secret: bald men always know when it’s raining first. No hair to shield us — we feel the first drops before anyone else.

And lately, I’ve been feeling those drops. Not on my head — in our nation.

A few weeks ago, 45,000 people packed Angel Stadium for our Harvest Crusade. So many came that the fire marshal locked the doors. One guy climbed a fence to get in. Why? Not for a concert. Not for a celebrity. For the Gospel. By the end of the night, 5,500 people had made professions of faith in person — and another 1,000 online.

Now, I’ve done these crusades for 35 years. But this year? This felt different.

Gen Z is not supposed to be doing this

The data told us Gen Z was walking away from Christianity. Instead, they’re walking toward it.

  • Bible sales are up 22%. And it’s not grandma buying them — it’s Gen Z and young adults.
  • Young men are converting to Christ at higher rates than young women — for the first time ever.
  • And as Charlie Kirk says, “They don’t want fluff. They want the unfiltered Gospel of Christ crucified and the power of the resurrection.”
Continued below.

Christian Smith, a sociologist of religion, hasn't confirmed anything like this happening in the data. More Bible sales a a few anecdotes about young people in stadiums doesn't change long term trends.

My local congregationalist church has gotten two more regular attendees, both young people... but those don't counter the trend and hardly make up for losses. Many young people perceive institutional churches as places of politics and moral hypocrisy, not spiritual formation.
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How does the idea that most of Gods creation he will have to burn forever bring glory to God?

God in Christ definitely condemns DEVILS in mankind, beyond any doubt. That's the part that continues to slip by your positions. People are not just people. It's the person and their captor, the devil, the tempter.
But if the demon is condemned and the person is atoned for; how do any humans end up in hell?
Christ died for all people. And for us while we were not even born yet and even when we remained blinded enemies of the Gospel, blinded captive slaves of the devil.
Romans 9:21-23
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doesn't sound like limited people atonement to me^^^ All bound. All receive Mercy.

1 Timothy 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Most don't get the picture currently. They'll all get it at some point, even post death.
The context of both these verses is concerning descendants of Jacob; as opposed to all the rest of the nations. Thus what "he gave himself a ransom for all" means.

Revelation 5:9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
And the Father has given Jesus all people.
I know this is the position you are arguing from; so please explain how some end up in hell then? If all humanity's sin is paid for; how are there humans in hell? How are those that worship the beast, cast into the Lake of Fire?

For example; the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Why would Christ and the prophets / apostles warn people to repent if ultimately everyone is atoned for?

2 Thessalonians 1:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
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Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

I found another answer. Make it illegal for gang members to have guns.

1. Make it illegal for those with mental health issues to have guns.
2. Make it illegal for gang members to have guns.

Gun deaths would plummet.
I dont think so. Guns are so easy to get illegally that it wouldn't make a difference. Change that, and it would help.
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DeSantis to make Florida first state to end *all* vaccine mandates for schools

If state Republicans have their way, Florida will become a mass grave for children. So much for "family values".

I'm looking to leave the state some time in the next year. Between climate change, the stupid politics of the state, or the meaningless and ugly sprawl (they are all interrelated, IMO), there's no reason to stay anymore. This is not how civilized humans live, and there's nothing really "conservative" about it.
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Mass Shooting at Annunciation Catholic Church/School in Minneapolis

Meanwhile, there are completely tone deaf people supporters of transgenderism protesting the Vice President's visit in Minneapolis.
With a pride flag? That’s so ridiculous. VP Vance is there to support the victims and their families.
Some of those protesting were family members of the victims.

Some family and neighbors gathered nearby as the Vances arrived at the church, holding signs calling for bans on assault weapons. One read, “Pro-Life = Pro-Gun Safety.” Another referred to comments by Pope Leo on Sunday, “Listen to the Pope, End the Pandemic of Arms.”

“It keeps happening over and over and over, and nothing changes,” said Kacie Sharpe. Her 8-year-old son, Trip, considered Fletcher his best friend, and was sitting nearby when he was shot and killed. “And it’s the most helpless feeling in the world to know that you can’t send your kids to school and have them be safe.”


...mother Leah Kaiser cited a proverb quoted by Principal Matthew DeBoer and many others in the days since the shootings, “When you pray, move your feet.” It’s an expression of the idea that thoughts and prayers are not enough.

"Vice President Vance, you have enormous authority,” she continued. “Please use this moment to move your feet and transcend our political divides to promote peace and unity and hope. This is what the people of the United States will hold you accountable to.”
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