WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

[Non-profit Prophet]

No, but we also cannot ignore all the differences between Revelation's Babylon and Jerusalem. Jerusalem does not match what is said about Babylon. You didn't even bother to address the differences I provided that prove the two cities are different.

Of course no ships are said to be “in” the city, but international trade via ships was started by King Solomon who had ships built to be used for that purpose- Jerusalem benefited greatly in the trade of goods.

Because of Solomon many were led astray by the deception of idolatry because he allowed and encouraged his people to worship other gods- even commissioning structures dedicated to those false gods.... all from his throne in Jerusalem.

These, of course are merely biblical examples that address what are sometimes considered in the list of “differences” between Revelation’s Babylon and Jerusalem, but if we read every description of Babylon in the vision that John was given, we will always find something to use as an eliminating factor to identify it with any city that ever, or will ever, exist- our conclusion would have to be, “no such city, physical or spiritual, fits the description,” which would render Revelation as untrue.

In researching just two of your references to “differences,” I found more biblical support that points to Jerusalem... with barely 20 minutes of reading 1 Kings.

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

I'd like to share my point of view... Mystery Babylon based on scripture is confusing to those that say it is literary a physical city. One could say the U.S. or Rome or Jerusalem. Although those citys are guilty in part to what the scripture says about the harlot, it does not add up. Try to look at Mystery Babylon as a spiritual city... doing so you will see how it doesn't point to one city but a spiritual city that has influence over physical citys.

Having a point of view or opinion is valuable in a discussion such as this; however, to view Revelation’s Babylon as “confusing based on Scripture” seems to suggest we should look outside the biblical narrative for a mutual agreement on this mystery.

While I would agree that there are spiritual considerations to take into account when attempting to identify this mysterious city, one may also consider that the descriptions - from a spiritual perspective - may merely mean that from the realm of this vision of John, the descriptions depicted do not necessarily refer to a specific period of time, but an the entire history of the city and its influence in the world.

Should we view it as the physical, geographical City of Jerusalem? As God’s intended seat of rule for the Nation of Israel and the world, yes... but the pivotal element to recognize is the spirit of deception that has ruled the leaders over this “spiritual center” of the world.

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

There's no such verse else it would have been posted already.

Babylon is a symbolic city and is fully destroyed. Jerusalem is a literal city and is not destroyed in the book of Rev.

Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

Jerusalem is not burned down nor is it a port city. It simply doesn't fit the description of Babylon or it's demise.


Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

No ships in Jerusalem.


Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

Babylon is found no more at all yet Jerusalem still stands and is occupied at the end of the thousand years when Satan leads an army to surround it.


Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Israel with all it'scities and Jerusalem is but one of all the nations deceived by Babylon.

Jerusalem is not Babylon in Revelation.

Rev 18:6 “...pay her back double for what she has done.”

Isaiah 40:2 “...Jerusalem...that she has received from the LORD’s hand double for all her sins.”

 

[J03l]

Having a point of view or opinion is valuable in a discussion such as this; however, to view Revelation’s Babylon as “confusing based on Scripture” seems to suggest we should look outside the biblical narrative for a mutual agreement on this mystery.

While I would agree that there are spiritual considerations to take into account when attempting to identify this mysterious city, one may also consider that the descriptions - from a spiritual perspective - may merely mean that from the realm of this vision of John, the descriptions depicted do not necessarily refer to a specific period of time, but an the entire history of the city and its influence in the world.

Should we view it as the physical, geographical City of Jerusalem? As God’s intended seat of rule for the Nation of Israel and the world, yes... but the pivotal element to recognize is the spirit of deception that has ruled the leaders over this “spiritual center” of the world.

When I said confusing based on scripture I meant it will be to those that think it is a physical city. You dont need to look outside scripture. To say the truth unless God has revealed to you that Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem, you are a liar causing confusion.

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

When I said confusing based on scripture I meant it will be to those that think it is a physical city. You dont need to look outside scripture. To say the truth unless God has revealed to you that Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem, you are a liar causing confusion.

God did reveal it to me... and to you, as well. It’s all in the Bible.

It seems easier for you to accuse me of being a liar than to check scripture to validate what God has said about Israel- He referred to her as His wife and a prostitute, has accused her of killing His prophets and leading people astray. He also said He would punish her and then return to her as her husband. Jerusalem is the most pivotal city of Israel and the world. To discount Jerusalem as the physical and spiritual Mother of Prostitutes would be to deny God’s Word.

Babylon of the Revelation repeatedly correlates with numerous OT books and dozens of specific passages of scripture regarding Jerusalem “the prostitute.”

I won’t debate with you further until you read your Bible.

 

[J03l]

God did reveal it to me... and to you, as well. It’s all in the Bible.

It seems easier for you to accuse me of being a liar than to check scripture to validate what God has said about Israel- He referred to her as His wife and a prostitute, has accused her of killing His prophets and leading people astray. He also said He would punish her and then return to her as her husband. Jerusalem is the most pivotal city of Israel and the world. To discount Jerusalem as the physical and spiritual Mother of Prostitutes would be to deny God’s Word.

Babylon of the Revelation repeatedly correlates with numerous OT books and dozens of specific passages of scripture regarding Jerusalem “the prostitute.”

I won’t debate with you further until you read your Bible.

Did God speak directly to you and say it is Jerusalem? Its is called Mystery Babylon for a reason but you act like you know it all. You accuse Jerusalem of the sins God judged her for in the past and state scripture to try to prove your point to say it is Mystery Babylon. Your statements dont add up. I dont even have to debate with you it would be a waste a time since your so sure Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. It is not right to accuse if God did NOT directly speak to you, I mean face to face not just through scripture. So did God speak to you face to face and say Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem?

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

Did God speak directly to you and say it is Jerusalem? Its is called Mystery Babylon for a reason but you act like you know it all. You accuse Jerusalem of the sins God judged her for in the past and state scripture to try to prove your point to say it is Mystery Babylon. Your statements dont add up. I dont even have to debate with you it would be a waste a time since your so sure Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. It is not right to accuse if God did NOT directly speak to you, I mean face to face not just through scripture. So did God speak to you face to face and say Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem?

So you still refuse to read scripture... good luck.

 

[ewq1938]

Of course no ships are said to be “in” the city, but international trade via ships was started by King Solomon who had ships built to be used for that purpose- Jerusalem benefited greatly in the trade of goods.

Babylon is described as a port city which eliminates Jerusalem as being Babylon plus as I mentioned Babylon will be destroyed at the end of the GT but Jerusalem remains through the thousand years and after it when it is surrounded. The harlot Babylon no longer exists while Jerusalem does.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 18:6 “...pay her back double for what she has done.”

Isaiah 40:2 “...Jerusalem...that she has received from the LORD’s hand double for all her sins.”

That doesn't turn Jerusalem into Babylon. Receiving double is found in many places in scripture. In the book of Rev Babylon and Jerusalem are two very different things and what is said about Babylon does not match Jerusalem.

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

Babylon is described as a port city which eliminates Jerusalem as being Babylon plus as I mentioned Babylon will be destroyed at the end of the GT but Jerusalem remains through the thousand years and after it when it is surrounded. The harlot Babylon no longer exists while Jerusalem does.

I must have missed the description of Jerusalem being a “port city.” Would you mind providing the verse that describes it as such? Thanks.

 

[ewq1938]

I must have missed the description of Jerusalem being a “port city.” Would you mind providing the verse that describes it as such? Thanks.

Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

In Ezekiel 28, there is a prophecy about the prince of tyre (the Antichrist, who has the audacity to sit in the seat of God, figuratively) and another prophecy about the king of tyre, a code name for Satan. Babylon the great is Satan's mystical kingdom, and the city in Revelation 18 mystical as well, not an actual city. But given the king of tyre code name for Satan, Revelation 18 the city of Babylon the great could be modeled on tyre, a great trading city.

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Where does it say Jerusalem is a “port city?” There are many inland cities that profit from trade via ships in the sea, that doesn’t mean they are “port cities.”

 

[ewq1938]

Where does it say Jerusalem is a “port city?”

It doesn't because it isn't one and therefore doesn't match the description of Babylon. Jerusalem isn't also burned like Babylon is described. It also isn't destroyed whereas Babylon is said to never have people in it again and ceases to exist. None of that happens to Jerusalem.

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

 

[Douggg]

Where does it say Jerusalem is a “port city?” There are many inland cities that profit from trade via ships in the sea, that doesn’t mean they are “port cities.”

Revelation 18 is likening Satan's kingdom to a great trading city, that had grown wealthly on immoral actions, that suddenly meets its demise.

Satan's kingdom is called Babylon the Great. It rules over the nations of the world. Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. There is no conventional city that meets that description, because it goes back to when Cain slew Abel.

In Ezekiel 28, referring to Satan...

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

In Revelation 12, Satan and his angels will be cast down to the earth from the second heaven. That is the fall of Babylon the Great in Revelation 18.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revealtion 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

You guys are making something difficult out of something simple. It is talking about the end of Satan's kingdom, code named Babylon the Great.

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

It doesn't because it isn't one and therefore doesn't match the description of Babylon. Jerusalem isn't also burned like Babylon is described. It also isn't destroyed whereas Babylon is said to never have people in it again and ceases to exist. None of that happens to Jerusalem.

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

Oops, I typed Jerusalem when I meant to type Babylon... same thing in Revelation. So where does it say that Babylon is a port city?

And where does it say Babylon will not have any people? It only says there will be no more musicians and craftsmen.

 

[ewq1938]

Oops, I typed Jerusalem when I meant to type Babylon... same thing in Revelation. So where does it say that Babylon is a port city?

Post 331

And where does it say Babylon will not have any people? It only says there will be no more musicians and craftsmen.

It also says the city will never exist again so that means no people in it.

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


Jerusalem will continue to exist through the thousand years and after where it is surrounded by Satan's last army.

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

Post 331



It also says the city will never exist again so that means no people in it.

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


Jerusalem will continue to exist through the thousand years and after where it is surrounded by Satan's last army.

Jerusalem is the physical location- Babylon is obviously a metaphor; the scripture is stating that “Babylon” (The great city that plays the harlot) will no longer exist. Jerusalem will be restored. Keep in mind, Jerusalem is also called Sodom and Eqypt (and a prostitute), not the physical location, but in reputation, God called His city these names.

 

[Non-profit Prophet]

Revelation 18 is likening Satan's kingdom to a great trading city, that had grown wealthly on immoral actions, that suddenly meets its demise.

Satan's kingdom is called Babylon the Great. It rules over the nations of the world. Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. There is no conventional city that meets that description, because it goes back to when Cain slew Abel.

In Ezekiel 28, referring to Satan...

Ezekiel 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

In Revelation 12, Satan and his angels will be cast down to the earth from the second heaven. That is the fall of Babylon the Great in Revelation 18.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revealtion 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

You guys are making something difficult out of something simple. It is talking about the end of Satan's kingdom, code named Babylon the Great.

In keeping with what you stated about “Satan’s kingdom,” Jesus told the Pharisees that their father was Satan. Where did the Pharisees “rule?” Jerusalem. It was being ruled by (according to Jesus’ accusation) the children of Satan, doing Satan’s work... deceiving the people, killing the prophets (including Jesus), and living in luxury.

 

[ewq1938]

Jerusalem is the physical location- Babylon is obviously a metaphor;

I agree mostly but Jerusalem still is not Babylon. Jerusalem will be where the AC rules from and it will therefore be a part of what Babylon is but Babylon is far more than one literal city. It is the false religion that rides upon the beast and controls the kings and peoples of the world through this religion.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So she "sits" upon people and nations which is a global concept. Jerusalem is part of this whole thing but just doesn't match the entirety of what Babylon will be.

the scripture is stating that “Babylon” (The great city that plays the harlot) will no longer exist. Jerusalem will be restored.

Jerusalem is said to spiritually be Egypt and Sodom during the GT. Once the beast is destroyed and Christ and his saints inhabit the city it will no longer be spiritually polluted. The whole world will be no longer spiritually polluted.

Keep in mind, Jerusalem is also called Sodom and Eqypt (and a prostitute), not the physical location, but in reputation, God called His city these names.

Well, in the book of Rev the harlot is Babylon, not Jerusalem. Babylon will be destroyed forever but Jerusalem was not destroyed except damage from an earthquake. There are some similarities and perhaps Jerusalem is a shadow of Babylon to come but ultimately when Babylon is in power, she is a symbolic city ruling over the whole world including Jerusalem and all literal cities.