WHO IS BABYLON/HARLOT IN REVELATION?

[ewq1938]

Abel's blood is on her hands. Abel's blood was all the blood ever shed at that time. What city could that be?

Cainopolis?

 

[FredVB]

In the old testament of the Bible, Israel is properly depicted as the wife of Yahweh God, there isn't further meaning that was hidden. I don't say this with not believing in Jesus and who he is. My faith is shown with my information below my avatar, this and my signature could have been checked. The bride of Christ is a new concept for believers when the revelation of this came to the new church of believers who had come to Christ. There wasn't harlotry from them. The harlot depicted in Revelation for what is called Mystery Babylon and Babylon the great is guiilty with involvement with all that trade, and blood of many, typical of civilization, not simply a religious system of error.

How does the "bride of Christ" enter this conversation?

How did Christ enter the "conversation"? Before Christ did come, the gospel of Christ though adequately hinted at was a mystery to those even searching the scriptures knowing the was a promised anointed one coming. There would be those given a new heart, "of flesh", not "of stone", and this was understood before Christ came to be referring to the people of Israel, though certain scriptures before Christ came were showing there would be gentile people who would be included. Any one of those of the people of Israel would be included, if they came to the promised one, Christ, and did not reject him. It was still new testament prophetic passages that show it clearly enough that all these of this new covenant that was promised become together the "bride of Christ", a good metaphor for the caring relationship in bliss that would never have an end.

Mystery Babylon is not the same as the "bride of Christ", it is a reference, that should come to be understood in these times, to cities of civilization, that we who are believers should actually come out of, as we are called to, and not wait for anything, like being taken, but just get out as soon as it is possible for us, as being in cities of civilization was not really right for us. Cities of civilization were not godly.

 

[FredVB]

Abel's blood is on her hands. Abel's blood was all the blood ever shed at that time. What city could that be?

Cainopolis?

Civilization really does go back far. I was speaking of the continuous civilization that there was since Babel. But we are yet told that Cain went off with his wife and founded the first city. A city forming would be civilization then. And this was when wicked humanity which would eventually need to be destroyed started growing. Whatever good is thought to come from civilization is coming to the privileged at the expense of the wicked use and over exploitation of things and other creatures and people.

 

[summerville]

How did Christ enter the "conversation"? Before Christ did come, the gospel of Christ though adequately hinted at was a mystery to those even searching the scriptures knowing the was a promised anointed one coming. There would be those given a new heart, "of flesh", not "of stone", and this was understood before Christ came to be referring to the people of Israel, though certain scriptures before Christ came were showing there would be gentile people who would be included. Any one of those of the people of Israel would be included, if they came to the promised one, Christ, and did not reject him. It was still new testament prophetic passages that show it clearly enough that all these of this new covenant that was promised become together the "bride of Christ", a good metaphor for the caring relationship in bliss that would never have an end.

Mystery Babylon is not the same as the "bride of Christ", it is a reference, that should come to be understood in these times, to cities of civilization, that we who are believers should actually come out of, as we are called to, and not wait for anything, like being taken, but just get out as soon as it is possible for us, as being in cities of civilization was not really right for us. Cities of civilization were not godly.

I have no idea what you just said.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Cainopolis?

Lol! Yup. You might think the family comes before the state.

 

[FredVB]

How does the "bride of Christ" enter this conversation?

How did Christ enter the "conversation"? Before Christ did come, the gospel of Christ though adequately hinted at was a mystery to those even searching the scriptures knowing the was a promised anointed one coming. There would be those given a new heart, "of flesh", not "of stone", and this was understood before Christ came to be referring to the people of Israel, though certain scriptures before Christ came were showing there would be gentile people who would be included. Any one of those of the people of Israel would be included, if they came to the promised one, Christ, and did not reject him. It was still new testament prophetic passages that show it clearly enough that all these of this new covenant that was promised become together the "bride of Christ", a good metaphor for the caring relationship in bliss that would never have an end.

Mystery Babylon is not the same as the "bride of Christ", it is a reference, that should come to be understood in these times, to cities of civilization, that we who are believers should actually come out of, as we are called to, and not wait for anything, like being taken, but just get out as soon as it is possible for us, as being in cities of civilization was not really right for us. Cities of civilization were not godly.

I have no idea what you just said.

Really? The bride of Christ is not a subject of the old testament, unless you can extrapolate it from what is said of the new heart being given in Ezekiel 36:26 and the new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah 31:31. Gentile people were certainly to be included among those that these promises were for, such as what is shown in Isaiah 56:6-7. The bride of Christ is known about from new testament prophetic passages and this bride is not exactly corresponding to the old testament people of Israel who are referred to metaphorically in a few places as the unfaithful wife of Yahweh. To answer the previous allegation in this thread, there is no correspondance of the metaphorical bride of Christ to the Mystery Babylon depicted in the book of Revelation, I say with good basis that represents cities of civilization generally.

 

[FredVB]

Cainopolis?

Lol! Yup. You might think the family comes before the state.

Do you know? Cain went with his wife to the east, and made a city named for his first born son, Enoch, Genesis 4:17. So this would have been the first city, and so there were cities before the flood, though I guess not on the scale of cities that came after the flood, starting with Babel.

 

[summerville]

Do you know? Cain went with his wife to the east, and made a city named for his first born son, Enoch, Genesis 4:17. So this would have been the first city, and so there were cities before the flood, though I guess not on the scale of cities that came after the flood, starting with Babel.

There have always been Ziggurats all over the ME.. They were used as watchtowers during the day and signal towers at night.

The tower of Babel story is probably an allegory for the loss of literacy when a civilization collapses.

There are ancient cities that were not interrupted by flood.

Egypt, the Levant, Turkey and the Arabian peninsula have no flood sediment footprint.

 

[Davy]

There have always been Ziggurats all over the ME.. They were used as watchtowers during the day and signal towers at night.

The tower of Babel story is probably an allegory for the loss of literacy when a civilization collapses.

There are ancient cities that were not interrupted by flood.

Egypt, the Levant, Turkey and the Arabian peninsula have no flood sediment footprint.

That would be saying the flood was not world wide, which goes against God's Word as written.

 

[summerville]

That would be saying the flood was not world wide, which goes against God's Word as written.

Oh no.. The Bible uses the word "eretz" not earth or world or globe.

Eretz just means land. Like there was famine in the land... NOT famine over the whole earth.

 

[Davy]

There is a book called Sargon The Magnificent containing info from Assyriologist's translation of Babylonian tablets regarding the ancient Sumer civilization (in the area of old Babylon). Sargon (means king) suddenly appeared among the ancient Sumerians and gave them knowledge of the sciences and canal building. He build the first city there called Erech. The Sumerians called him 'son of Bel' (i.e. 'son of the dragon'). That is where first idol worship of Bel began, and from which all pagan idol worship stemmed from. Sargon's death mask is in the British museum.

One the Assyriologist's first translation of the date Sargon appeared among the Sumerians was 3800 B.C. He later changed that date because it didn't seem to fit the Assyriologist's theories of the day. Per bishop Ussher's 17th century dating of the man Adam in God's Garden from the begats in God's Word, he put Adam in Eden at 4004 B.C. The dates 4004 and 3800 B.C. are only about 200 years different. That would place Sargon in the same era as Cain.

 

[summerville]

There is a book called Sargon The Magnificent containing info from Assyriologist's translation of Babylonian tablets regarding the ancient Sumer civilization (in the area of old Babylon). Sargon (means king) suddenly appeared among the ancient Sumerians and gave them knowledge of the sciences and canal building. He build the first city there called Erech. The Sumerians called him 'son of Bel' (i.e. 'son of the dragon'). That is where first idol worship of Bel began, and from which all pagan idol worship stemmed from. Sargon's death mask is in the British museum.

One the Assyriologist's first translation of the date Sargon appeared among the Sumerians was 3800 B.C. He later changed that date because it didn't seem to fit the Assyriologist's theories of the day. Per bishop Ussher's 17th century dating of the man Adam in God's Garden from the begats in God's Word, he put Adam in Eden at 4004 B.C. The dates 4004 and 3800 B.C. are only about 200 years different. That would place Sargon in the same era as Cain.

The Sumerians had sailboats, irrigation, the wheel and a written language LONG before Sargon.

 

[Davy]

The Sumerians had sailboats, irrigation, the wheel and a written language LONG before Sargon.

prove it.

 

[summerville]

prove it.

Easy enough to prove. You have never been to Iraq or Iran, have you?

Quite amazing really.. I am partial to Byblos and Baalbek myself.

Top 12 Inventions and Discoveries of Ancient Babylonia ...
Top 12 Inventions and Discoveries of Ancient Babylonia - Ancient History Listsbabylonia
Nov 20, 2019 · 8. The First Wheel. Not only did Babylonia invent the sailboat for use on water, but also the wheel for use on land routes. The oldest wheels were made of clay, rock, and mud, with wooden wheels coming much later on. The Babylonians created the wheel in around 3,500 BC, the earliest wheel being used for pottery.


mesopotamia Sailboat - World History Education Resources
www.world-history-education-resources.com/mesopotamia/sailboat-mesopotamia.html
Not only did ancient Mesopotamians invent the wheel, written language and the concept of hours that last for 60 minutes, they also were the creators of sailboats, a major development in travel. [5] They were the inventors of wheels, cuneiform, and sailboats.

 

[Davy]

Oh no.. The Bible uses the word "eretz" not earth or world or globe.

Eretz just means land. Like there was famine in the land... NOT famine over the whole earth.

I choose to believe the Scriptures instead...

Gen 7:19
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
KJV


The following account is from Buffalo Bill's autobiography (of which I have a copy of an old edition):

"While we were in the sand-hills, scouting the Niobrara country, the Pawnee Indians brought into camp, one night, some very large bones, one of which a surgeon of the expedition pronounced to be the thigh-bone of a human being. The Indians claimed that the bones they had found were those of a person belonging to a race of people who a long time ago lived in this country. That there was once a race of men on the earth whose size was about three times that of an ordinary man, and they were so swift and powerful that they could run along-side of a buffalo, and taking the animal in one arm could tear off a leg and eat the meat as they walked. These giants denied the existence of a Great Spirit, and when they heard the thunder or saw the lightning they laughed at it and said that they were greater than either. This so displeased the Great Spirit that he caused a great rain-storm to come, and the water kept rising higher and higher so that it drove those proud and conceited giants from the low grounds to the hills, and thence to the mountains, but at last even the mountain tops were submerged, and then those mammoth men were all drowned."

If the flood reached the Americas also, like that story by the Pawnee suggests in their traditional history handed down to them, then it certainly was over all other nations on the other side of the earth too.

 

[Davy]

The Sumerians had sailboats, irrigation, the wheel and a written language LONG before Sargon.

Sargon I was their first king, and the Assyriologists changed the original translation date of his arrival, which they admitted to (per Bristowe's research in Sargon The Magnificent). 3800 B.C. was the original translation from the Babylonian tablets.

 

[summerville]

Sargon I was their first king, and the Assyriologists changed the original translation date of his arrival, which they admitted to (per Bristowe's research in Sargon The Magnificent). 3800 B.C. was the original translation from the Babylonian tablets.

Sargon the Magnificent seems to be a fiction.

Sargon 1 is from the Old Assyrian Empire from c. 1920 BC — c. 1881 BC.

Sargon the Magnificent: Amazon.com: Books
Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & moreSargon-the-Magnificent/dp/B003WRG65G
Oct 06, 2014 · Sargon the Magnificent on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. In this book, first published in 1927, British painter and writer Sydney Bristowe describes her Cain-Sargon of Akkad equation theory. She asserts that, by reconstructing the ancient chronology of Mesopotamia based on the Cylinder of Nabonidus, the cylinder dates Naram-Sin, son of Sargon of Accad, 3200 years before Nabonidus, and so Sargon to c. 3800 BC.

This contrasts sharply with mainstream scholarship which dates Sargon to the 23rd century BC. Bristowe defends the earlier dating from the cylinder and then argues that Sargon was the Biblical Cain. A fascinating book which goes into detail about her identifying the Biblical Cain with Sargon king of Agade.

Her entire theory towards the date of Sargon rests on the cylinder of Nabonidus where it stated that Naram-Sin, reigned 3200 years before him, which would of made Sargon's reign in 3750 BC. Most Assyriologist of the time believe the scribe made a mistake by adding one more wedge to the number creating a 1000 year mistake. Further all the king lists that I have seen show Naram-Sin ruling nearly 80 years later. Surely not his son.

Budge lists Sargon at 2637 BC and Kramer in appendix of his book "The Sumerians" shows Naram-Sin as a grandson. Although I don't know what current scholars think about this I intend to find out.

Her other ideas concerning Cain and how the biblical account has been possibly perverted by the Sumerians rather than the Hebrews taking their ideas from the Sumerians is good reading and gives food for thought.

continued

 

[summerville]

The Cylinders of Nabonidus refers to cuneiform inscriptions of king Nabonidus of Babylonia (556-539 BC).

These inscriptions were made on clay cylinders. They include the Nabonidus Cylinder from Sippar, and the Nabonidus Cylinders from Ur, four in number.

 

[Davy]

Easy enough to prove. You have never been to Iraq or Iran, have you?

I'm ex-military, but I still wouldn't tell you if I've been there or not.

Quite amazing really.. I am partial to Byblos and Baalbek myself.

Top 12 Inventions and Discoveries of Ancient Babylonia ...
Top 12 Inventions and Discoveries of Ancient Babylonia - Ancient History Listsbabylonia
Nov 20, 2019 · 8. The First Wheel. Not only did Babylonia invent the sailboat for use on water, but also the wheel for use on land routes. The oldest wheels were made of clay, rock, and mud, with wooden wheels coming much later on. The Babylonians created the wheel in around 3,500 BC, the earliest wheel being used for pottery.


mesopotamia Sailboat - World History Education Resources
www.world-history-education-resources.com/mesopotamia/sailboat-mesopotamia.html
Not only did ancient Mesopotamians invent the wheel, written language and the concept of hours that last for 60 minutes, they also were the creators of sailboats, a major development in travel. [5] They were the inventors of wheels, cuneiform, and sailboats.

Like I said, per Bristowe's research of the Assyriologist's own writings, the original translated date from the tablets when the Sumerians said Sargon I first appeared among them was 3800 B.C., which pre-dates those things you are talking about.

 

[summerville]

I'm ex-military, but I still wouldn't tell you if I've been there or not.



Like I said, per Bristowe's research of the Assyriologist's own writings, the original translated date from the tablets when the Sumerians said Sargon I first appeared among them was 3800 B.C., which pre-dates those things you are talking about.

So your work was top secret?

I went to Iran and Iraq fairly often from the early 1950s thru the early 1970s. … Not as an invader of course.

You source on Magnificent Sargon (1927) appears to have been an amateur's "theory".. If you are really interested in the subject read Samuel Noah Kramer's History Begins at Sumer.. He spent his whole life translating the cuneiform tablets.