Is the Catholic Church the Harlot of Babylon?

Michie

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In another tract, Is the Catholic Church the harlot of Babylon?, we looked at nine arguments given by fundamentalist Dave Hunt for his claim that the Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon from Revelation 17–18. His arguments are typical of those used by fundamentalist anti-Catholics and are easily proven wrong. (See that tract for details).
But we can go beyond a mere critique of the shallow anti-Catholic arguments like Hunt’s. There is irrefutable evidence in Revelation 17–18 (the chapters Fundamentalists love to quote against the Catholic Church) that proves that it is impossible for the Catholic Church to be the harlot.


A Vision in the Wilderness

When John introduces the harlot in Revelation 17, he tells us: “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, ‘Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk.’ And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of blasphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication; and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations.’ And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly” (Rev. 17:1–6).

This passage tells us several things about the harlot: (1) She is an international power, since she “sits on many waters,” representing different peoples (17:15), and she has committed fornication with “the kings of the earth,” and she has inflamed “the dwellers on earth” with her fornication. (2) She is connected with the seven-headed Beast from Revelation 13:1–10. That Beast was a major pagan empire, since its symbolism combined animal elements from four other major pagan empires (compare Rev. 13:1–2 with Dan. 7:1–8). (3) The Woman is connected with royalty, since she is dressed in the royal color purple. (4) The Woman is rich, for she is “bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup.” (5) She has committed some kind of fornication, which in Scripture is often a symbol of false religion—lack of fidelity to the God who created heaven and earth. (6) She is symbolically known as Babylon. (7) She is a central cause of “abominations” in the land, abominations being a reference to practices, especially religious practices, that are offensive to God. And (8) she persecutes Christians “the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus.”

While the rest of her description could refer to a number of things, the symbolic designation “Babylon” narrows it down to two: pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. It is well known that the early Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as “Babylon”; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the harlot might be apostate Jerusalem. Historically, a number of commentators, both Protestant and Catholic, have adopted this interpretation.


The Seven Heads

Continuing in Revelation, the angel begins to explain to John the woman’s symbolism: “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while” (Rev. 17:9–10).

Fundamentalists argue that these seven mountains must be the seven hills of ancient Rome. However the Greek word here, horos, is almost always translated “mountain” in Scripture. Mountains are often symbols of kingdoms in Scripture (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Obad. 8–21; Amos 4:1, 6:1), which might be why the seven heads also symbolize seven kings. The mountains could stand for a series of seven kings, five of whom have already fallen.

This passage gives us a key rule of Bible interpretation which is often denied by Fundamentalists: A symbol does not have to refer to one and only one thing. Here Scripture itself tells us that the heads refer both to seven mountains and seven kings, meaning the symbol has multiple fulfillments.

Also, the mountains could be a reference to pagan Rome, yet the harlot could still be a reference to apostate Jerusalem. In this case, her sitting on the Beast would not indicate a geographical location but an alliance between the two powers. The harlot (Jerusalem) would be allied with the Beast (Rome) in persecuting “the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus.” (Note that the harlot also sits on many waters, which we are told are many peoples [cf. 17:15]. The context makes it clear that here her “sitting” on something does not refer to a geographical location.)
This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the harlot. We are told that the heads “are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come.” If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the harlot must have existed in John’s day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of commentators see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John’s time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the harlot) is Rome.


The Ten Horns

The angel also interprets for John the meaning of the Beast’s ten horns: “And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind and give over their power and authority to the beast; they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful” (17:12–14).

This shows us that the Beast is allied with ten lower rulers and with their own territories. Some Fundamentalists bent on making this apply to modern times and the Catholic Church have argued that the horns refer to the European Community (EC) and a revived Roman empire with the Catholic Church at its head. The problem is that there are ten kings, but there are now many more than ten nations in the EC.

However, what we are told about the horns does fit one of the other candidates we have for the harlot—apostate Jerusalem. The angel tells John: “And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and giving over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled” (17:16–17).

If the harlot is Jerusalem and the Beast is Rome (with the ten horns as vassal states), then the prophecy makes perfect sense. The alliance between the two in persecuting Christians broke down in A.D. 66–70, when Rome and its allied forces conquered Israel and then destroyed, sacked, and burned Jerusalem, just as Jesus prophesied (Luke 21:5–24).


The harlot’s Authority

Finally the angel tells John: “And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth” (17:18). This again points to pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem. In the case of the former, the dominion would be political; in the case of the latter, it could be a number of things. It could be spiritual dominion in that Jerusalem held the religion of the true God. It could be a reference to the manipulation by certain Jews and Jewish leaders of gentiles into persecuting Christians.

It could even be political, since Jerusalem was the center of political power in Canaan and, under the authority of the Romans, it ruled a considerable amount of territory and less powerful peoples. On this thesis “the kings of the earth” would be “the kings of the land” (the Greek phrase can be translated either way). Such local rulers of the land of Canaan would naturally resent Jerusalem and wish to cooperate with the Romans in its destruction—just as history records they did.


The hub of world commerce

Continuing in chapter 18, John sees the destruction of the harlot, and a number of facts are revealed which also show that she cannot be the Catholic Church. For one, she is depicted as a major center of international trade and commerce. Pagan Rome was indeed the hub of world commerce in its day, supported by its maritime trading empire around the Mediterranean, but Christian Rome is not the hub of world commerce.

Persecuting apostles and prophets

When the harlot falls we read, “‘Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you’. . . . In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth” (18:20, 24). This shows that the harlot persecuted not just Christians, but apostles and prophets. Apostles existed only in the first century, since one of the requirements for being an apostle was seeing the risen Christ (1 Cor. 9:1). Prophets existed as a group only in the Old Testament and in the first century (Acts 11:27–28, 13:1, 15:32, 21:10).

Since the harlot persecuted apostles and prophets, the harlot must have existed in the first century. This totally demolishes the claim that Christian Rome or Vatican City is the harlot. Rome was not a Christian city at that time, and Vatican City did not even exist. Furthermore, Fundamentalists continually (though wrongly) claim that Catholicism itself did not exist in the first century, meaning that based on their very own argument Catholicism could not be the harlot!

Thus, on their own view, their identification of the Catholic Church with the harlot is completely impossible! Only ancient, pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem could possibly be the harlot.


If Not the harlot, the Bride

Fundamentalists assume, without objectively looking at the evidence, that the Catholic Church cannot be the Bride of Christ, so it must be the harlot of Babylon.

So why is the Bride maligned as the harlot? Jesus himself answered the question: “If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household” (Matt. 10:25). “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world . . . the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you” (John 15:18–20).





NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004​
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-harlot-of-babylon
 
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Jan001

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I am a Catholic myself, and felt somewhat offended when he said the RCC is a harlot, which it clearly is not.
I think Scripture shows us that Jerusalem was the harlot. She rejected Jesus Christ as her husband. The beast she was riding was imperial Rome and she rode it until Rome's armies destroyed her in 70 AD.

The great city in the Book of Revelation was Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

The Law and the Prophets, symbolized by the two dead bodies, prophesied in vain for the Jews to accept their Messiah, Jesus Christ.
 
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AlexB23

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I think Scripture shows us that Jerusalem was the harlot. She rejected Jesus Christ as her husband. The beast she was riding was imperial Rome and she rode it until Rome's armies destroyed her in 70 AD.

The great city in the Book of Revelation was Jerusalem.

Revelation 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that is prophetically called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

The Law and the Prophets, symbolized by the two dead bodies, prophesied in vain for the Jews to accept their Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Yeah. Jerusalem is the harlot, which I mentioned.
 
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Jan001

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Yeah. Jerusalem is the harlot, which I mentioned.
And, we know that Jerusalem is also Babylon the great.

Revelation 17:3-6 And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication.

5 And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery; Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications, and the abominations of the earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration.


It is God or his angels who write names and places on foreheads.

Revelation 14:1 And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.


Peter is known as the apostle to the circumcised Jews. He writes a letter to the dispersed church in the outlying regions of the Roman empire.
In this letter, Peter sends salutations to these elect from the church that is symbolized as Babylon. In Jerusalem, there was much persecution of the Christians by the unbelieving Jews, hence the code word for JerusalemBabylon.

1 Peter 1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers dispersed through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect,

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark.
 
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AlexB23

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And, we know that Jerusalem is also Babylon the great.

Revelation 17:3-6 And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was clothed round about with purple and scarlet, and gilt with gold, and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand, full of the abomination and filthiness of her fornication.

5 And on her forehead a name was written: A mystery; Babylon the great, the mother of the fornications, and the abominations of the earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And I wondered, when I had seen her, with great admiration.


It is God or his angels who write names, places, or makes marks on foreheads.

Revelation 14:1 And I beheld, and lo a lamb stood upon mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.


Peter is known as the apostle to the circumcised Jews. He writes a letter to the dispersed church in the outlying regions of the Roman empire.
In this letter, Peter sends salutations to these elect from the church that is symbolized as Babylon. In Jerusalem, there was much persecution of the Christians by the unbelieving Jews, hence the code word for JerusalemBabylon.

1 Peter 1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers dispersed through Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect,

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark.
Yeah, Jerusalem is the Babylon the Great, so I am surprised why Oikonomia thought different. The Bible clearly states Jerusalem, not the RCC, is the harlot.
 
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Jan001

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Yeah, Jerusalem is the Babylon the Great, so I am surprised why Oikonomia thought different. The Bible clearly states Jerusalem, not the RCC, is the harlot.
Many people today do not realize that the gospels and letters that we read in what we call the New Covenant were written to first-century Christians to teach them more clearly about things they still did not understand. They wrote them to address their concerns about the tribulations they were going through. They wrote these gospels and letters to encourage them to not forsake their faith in Jesus Christ. Many Christians in that time period did deny their faith so that they would not be killed by the Jews.
 
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AlexB23

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Many people today do not realize that the gospels and letters that we read in what we call the New Covenant were written to first-century Christians to teach them more clearly about things they still did not understand. They wrote them to address their concerns about the tribulations they were going through. They wrote these gospels and letters to encourage them to not forsake their faith in Jesus Christ. Many Christians in that time period did deny their faith so that they would not be killed by the Jews.
I completely agree with your perspective on the New Covenant scriptures. The gospels and letters were indeed written primarily for the first-century Christians to provide them with clarity on various aspects of their faith and to strengthen their resolve during difficult times. The tribulations the first Christians faced were immense, and some did indeed deny their faith under persecution. These scriptures serve as a reminder of the unwavering faith and determination of early Christians, and continue to be an essential source of guidance and encouragement for us today.
 
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AlexB23

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Its a false dichotomy you have - "fellowship" cannot include "teaching."

Go ahead and report my posts here. I don't mind.

I have been respectful and non-dogmatic.
I have incuded phrases like "this is how I would teach" or an equivalent which is often my practice here.

But I can stop posting on this thread. Go ahead and make your case.
I'd rather converse with Berean like Bible readers.
Here is the SOP for the Catholic sub-forum that @Michie is referring to, in a nice summary.

SOP: The "One Bread, One Body" (OBOB) subforum is a space for Catholics in communion with the Holy See in Rome, encompassing the Western Latin Rite and Eastern Catholic Churches. Members believe in the Triune God - the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as well as Church teachings such as Mary as the Mother of God, forgiveness of sins, resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

This forum rejects Satan's works and empty promises and requires respect for the Church's beliefs. Discussions should focus on fellowship, which includes conversations about friends, family, work, and other non-controversial topics. Homosexuality and same-sex marriage can be discussed without promotion.

Non-Catholics are welcome as guests, but cannot debate or teach against Catholic theology. Active promotion of views contrary to established Catholic teachings, such as Sedevacantism and Society of St. Pius X beliefs, is considered off-topic and may be discussed in Christian History or Denominational Specific Theology instead.

All posts must adhere to the site's community rules, and respect for the Papacy is required, even during disagreements on matters of prudential judgment. Catholic-only threads are also available.


And here is why @Michie said you broke the SOP, sir. Arguing that the "Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon" goes against One Bread, One Body's Statement of Purpose (SOP) for these reasons:

1. Respect for beliefs and the Church: The SOP explicitly states that all visitors are required to treat with respect all that the Catholic Church teaches as dogma, including the belief in Mary as the Mother of God and all other proclaimed dogmas. Labeling the Catholic Church as the "harlot of Babylon" is a derogatory term that goes against this requirement.
2. Rejection of Satan's works and empty promises: The SOP states that members reject Satan and all his works and empty promises. Arguing that the Catholic Church is the "harlot of Babylon" is a belief often associated with certain Protestant groups, and it is derived from the Book of Revelation. However, this interpretation is not universally accepted within the Catholic Church, and labeling the Church as such can be seen as promoting a controversial and divisive view.
3. Adherence to the site's community rules: The site's community rules prohibit personal attacks, hate speech, and disrespectful behavior towards other members or their beliefs. Arguing that the Catholic Church is the "harlot of Babylon" can be seen as a personal attack and disrespectful towards Catholics, and therefore goes against the site's community rules.
4. Focus on fellowship: The SOP encourages discussions focused on fellowship, which includes conversations about friends, family, work, and other non-controversial topics. Arguing that the Catholic Church is the "harlot of Babylon" is not a topic related to fellowship and goes against the purpose of the forum.

In summary, arguing that the Catholic Church is the "harlot of Babylon" goes against One Bread, One Body's SOP by requiring disrespect towards the Catholic Church and its beliefs, promoting controversial views, violating the site's community rules, and not focusing on fellowship topics.
 
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ADVISOR HAT

This thread had a clean up of some problem posts.

As a reminder, the site rules include:

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Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum.​

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If the harlot is Jerusalem and the Beast is Rome (with the ten horns as vassal states), then the prophecy makes perfect sense. The alliance between the two in persecuting Christians broke down in A.D. 66–70, when Rome and its allied forces conquered Israel and then destroyed, sacked, and burned Jerusalem, just as Jesus prophesied (Luke 21:5–24).

Michie, I find your thread interesting and have a few questions with regard to your belief that the beast of Rev. 13: 1-10, is Rome. It is my sincere belief that in order to understand the correct identity of this beast one must understanding the timing in which the beast rises from the sea and too, that the beast must meet all the identifying descriptives. With that said the Bible says: It appears after the healing of one of it's heads.​


What does this head represent? If the heads are mountains as many think, how does a mountain receive a fatal wound? (vs.3)​


Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it? (vs. 4) History records that the Rome empire lasted until 476 A.D. Doesn't that rule out Rome?​


(vs. 5) states it [the beast] would exercise it's authority for forty two months. Do you understand this to be day/yr. (1260 yrs.) or literal time? If it is day/yr, and Rome lasted about 450 years, do you see a problem with your reasoning?​


(v.7) It [the beast] was given power to wage war against God's holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. v8. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast, all whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life. Rome did not come close to achieving all of this. Again do you see a problem with your reasoning?​


Not trying to belittle you, but putting forth some very hard questions from the prophecy itself, that must be answered if one wishes to understand what God is revealing therein. Are you open to hear a different interpretation of the beast and the harlot?​

 
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Michie

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No. I’m sorry. The op is free of moral and doctrinal errors and posted in the Catholic forum why would I be interested in anything else? :scratch: If I were, I’d go to the appropriate forum.
 
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