vinsight4u
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tribulation & wrath & timing the rapture
- Thread starter HisdaughterJen
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Well, vin, I don't think I can agree with you on the horsemen/seal meanings...
First of all Jesus is opening the seals and sending these things out...(Rev.6:1 & Zech.6:5)
The red horse takes peace from the earth and makes men slay each other. (Worldwide war)
The black horse heads to the North and yields expensive food and famines. (Russia/China? - they have to work all day to provide food for themselves now)
The pale horse heads to the South and yields plagues and famines, animals, and lethal fighting. (Could this be Africa?- it certainly describes what has happened in Africa - deadly fighting, famine, HIV, etc.)
The white horse...some say is the antichrist...but I don't think so. Zech. 6:8 says this horse gives the Spirit of God rest...and Christ has sent it out...so either the Holy Spirit or the Church who was given the great commission. IMHO
Jesus said all of this would happen before the sun turns dark and the moon turns to blood....which according to the 6th seal, appears to be like a signal that the wrath of God (which includes the trumpets and the bowls) is about to begin.
Does this make sense or am I reaching?
First of all Jesus is opening the seals and sending these things out...(Rev.6:1 & Zech.6:5)
The red horse takes peace from the earth and makes men slay each other. (Worldwide war)
The black horse heads to the North and yields expensive food and famines. (Russia/China? - they have to work all day to provide food for themselves now)
The pale horse heads to the South and yields plagues and famines, animals, and lethal fighting. (Could this be Africa?- it certainly describes what has happened in Africa - deadly fighting, famine, HIV, etc.)
The white horse...some say is the antichrist...but I don't think so. Zech. 6:8 says this horse gives the Spirit of God rest...and Christ has sent it out...so either the Holy Spirit or the Church who was given the great commission. IMHO
Jesus said all of this would happen before the sun turns dark and the moon turns to blood....which according to the 6th seal, appears to be like a signal that the wrath of God (which includes the trumpets and the bowls) is about to begin.
Does this make sense or am I reaching?
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Sigh...
I simply don't understand how one can believe we are in the 7 year Trib period when we're clearly taught that Yahuweh's spirit must first be removed from the earth before the Trib can begin.
Oh well, no sense in beatin' a dead horse. If this fact is disregarded at this point, it probably always will be.
As to the White Robe thing.
This is a reference to the Laodiceans who were unrepentant previous to the rapture, were left behind, but finally got their act together, in the spiritual sense, refused the sign of the Beast, and were martyred. Also called the "Tribulation Saints".
Who are the Laodiceans? Most of those who attend church today. Although this sounds harsh and judgemental, it's a fact. If we remember in Yahushua's address to the various Ekklesia in Revelations, he called the Laodiceans "vomit" because they were neither "hot nor cold" and were basically indifferent to God.
These Laodicean type churches will include the Saddleback church of Rick Warren, and the "Crystal Cathedral" church of Robert Shuller. There are countless others, most 501c3 congregations qualify, at least in the collective sense. I mentioned these two for examples.
Many get this harvest, (mass martyrdom), confused with the rapture.
This scrip may help.
At some point, the last Tribulation martyr will have given his life. "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’ All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: ‘Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.’ Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’" (Revelation 7:9-14)
The scene is in heaven, so it’s clear that we are witnessing the souls of those who have been killed for their faith. One detail should ring a loud bell. Remember what Christ said to the apostate church at Laodicea? "I counsel you to buy from Me...white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed." (Revelation 3:18) Here we meet those who took his advice, opting to sell what they could not keep in order to buy what they could never lose.
These are the people who Yahushua was addressing when he said .."endure till the end.."
For a more compehensive analysis of the Laodicean assembly, read:http://yadayahweh.com/Yada_Yahweh_God_Damn_Religion_Laodicea.YHWH
I simply don't understand how one can believe we are in the 7 year Trib period when we're clearly taught that Yahuweh's spirit must first be removed from the earth before the Trib can begin.
Oh well, no sense in beatin' a dead horse. If this fact is disregarded at this point, it probably always will be.
As to the White Robe thing.
This is a reference to the Laodiceans who were unrepentant previous to the rapture, were left behind, but finally got their act together, in the spiritual sense, refused the sign of the Beast, and were martyred. Also called the "Tribulation Saints".
Who are the Laodiceans? Most of those who attend church today. Although this sounds harsh and judgemental, it's a fact. If we remember in Yahushua's address to the various Ekklesia in Revelations, he called the Laodiceans "vomit" because they were neither "hot nor cold" and were basically indifferent to God.
These Laodicean type churches will include the Saddleback church of Rick Warren, and the "Crystal Cathedral" church of Robert Shuller. There are countless others, most 501c3 congregations qualify, at least in the collective sense. I mentioned these two for examples.
Many get this harvest, (mass martyrdom), confused with the rapture.
This scrip may help.
At some point, the last Tribulation martyr will have given his life. "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’ All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: ‘Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.’ Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’" (Revelation 7:9-14)
The scene is in heaven, so it’s clear that we are witnessing the souls of those who have been killed for their faith. One detail should ring a loud bell. Remember what Christ said to the apostate church at Laodicea? "I counsel you to buy from Me...white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed." (Revelation 3:18) Here we meet those who took his advice, opting to sell what they could not keep in order to buy what they could never lose.
These are the people who Yahushua was addressing when he said .."endure till the end.."
For a more compehensive analysis of the Laodicean assembly, read:http://yadayahweh.com/Yada_Yahweh_God_Damn_Religion_Laodicea.YHWH
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woah....nelly!Sigh...
I simply don't understand how one can believe we are in the 7 year Trib period when we're clearly taught that Yahuweh's spirit must first be removed from the earth before the Trib can begin.
Oh well, no sense in beatin' a dead horse. If this fact is disregarded at this point, it probably always will be.
As to the White Robe thing.
This is a reference to the Laodiceans who were unrepentant previous to the rapture, were left behind, but finally got their act together, in the spiritual sense, refused the sign of the Beast, and were martyred. Also called the "Tribulation Saints".
Who are the Laodiceans? Most of those who attend church today. Although this sounds harsh and judgemental, it's a fact. If we remember in Yahushua's address to the various Ekklesia in Revelations, he called the Laodiceans "vomit" because they were neither "hot nor cold" and were basically indifferent to God.
These Laodicean type churches will include the Saddleback church of Rick Warren, and the "Crystal Cathedral" church of Robert Shuller. There are countless others, most 501c3 congregations qualify, at least in the collective sense. I mentioned these two for examples.
Many get this harvest, (mass martyrdom), confused with the rapture.
This scrip may help.
At some point, the last Tribulation martyr will have given his life. "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, ‘Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!’ All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: ‘Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.’ Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’" (Revelation 7:9-14)
The scene is in heaven, so it’s clear that we are witnessing the souls of those who have been killed for their faith. One detail should ring a loud bell. Remember what Christ said to the apostate church at Laodicea? "I counsel you to buy from Me...white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed." (Revelation 3:18) Here we meet those who took his advice, opting to sell what they could not keep in order to buy what they could never lose.
These are the people who Yahushua was addressing when he said .."endure till the end.."
For a more compehensive analysis of the Laodicean assembly, read:http://yadayahweh.com/Yada_Yahweh_God_Damn_Religion_Laodicea.YHWH
Hold on there a second!
Read Rev. 22:14-15.
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
These people aren't given robes...they wash their robes (in the blood of Christ, no less-Rev7:9-17). This means they've chosen Him. They are standing in HEAVEN and will live there forever in that city He prepared for us! Furthermore, they are standing before the throne and before the Lamb...not under the alter as in Rev 6:9.
When are they taken? According to the verses in Rev 7, they come out of something called a 'great tribulation'. What is that? I believe it is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences that Jesus spoke about (they are also the seals in Rev) and that have been going on since Christ left. We've been in the "great tribulation" for almost 2000 years if it is defined as worldwide wars, famines, plagues, pestilences!
Those who are martyred during the last 42 months do not go into the holy city...they are resurrected at Christ's return and rule/reign with him ON EARTH!
Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
There are two different sets of people who are dressed in white:
Rev 3:4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
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hisdaughterjen said,
"These people aren't given robes...they wash their robes (in the blood of Christ, no less-Rev7:9-17). This means they've chosen Him. They are standing in HEAVEN and will live there forever in that city He prepared for us! Furthermore, they are standing before the throne and before the Lamb...not under the alter as in Rev 6:9."
Nope, your assertion is false doctrine. Nowhere in scripture are our on garments acceptable, nor even suitable for eternal life. We are clothed by Yahuweh's Set-Apart spirit. You should know this by now as it is scripture 101.
hisdaughterjen said, "When are they taken? According to the verses in Rev 7, they come out of something called a 'great tribulation'. What is that? I believe it is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences that Jesus spoke about (they are also the seals in Rev) and that have been going on since Christ left. We've been in the "great tribulation" for almost 2000 years if it is defined as worldwide wars, famines, plagues, pestilences!
This is more false doctrine. You are saying there are two Great Tribulation periods. There is only one.
The rest of your post is difficult to make sense of and is clearly snipped out of context.
But I'll give it my best shot.
Sardis is a ref to the Ekklesia of Sardis Yahushua addressed and chastised for their lack of love of which a few repented.
"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’" (Revelation 3:1-6)
Placing Sardis in the context of history points this out in some shocking and unexpected ways. Though some would disagree, I believe Sardis represents the state of the Church at the time of the Reformation. The Catholic monolith had succumbed to the weight of its own pride and idolatry by this time, but the same small, faithful remnant in its ranks that had always been there was still accounted "worthy" to bear the name "Christian." Also worthy were the handful of courageous reformers who did us all an invaluable service by digging Biblical truth out of the rubble of a thousand years of suppression and neglect. But Yahshua isn’t talking about Catholics and Protestants here. He’s not taking sides between them. He’s pleading with His Church--His called-out assembly of believers--to be watchful, to wake up.
If John had seen it all clearly, he would have surely cringed at what he saw unfolding. After all, it was he who had written: "He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.... Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.... If someone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also." (I John 2:10-11, 4:7-8, 20-21) Love his brother? The Reformation brought with it centuries of fratricide. It did not precipitate unity and repentance, but pride, hatred and war.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting that we would have been better off without the Reformation. But the Church--the whole body of Christ--handled it badly from the very beginning. After Peter Waldo tried in 1170 to return to the simplicity of the Apostolic church and set aside the top-heavy liturgy of the Roman system, Pope Innocent III instituted (in 1209) a purge of the Waldensians, slaughtering millions of these and other "heretics." When John Wycliffe translated the Bible into common English in 1383--the linguistic foundation of virtually every English translation to this very day--he so incensed the Roman hierarchy--whose lust for power had driven them to suppress it--that, though they couldn’t touch him during his lifetime, they dug up his bones and publicly desecrated them after his death. Girolamo Savonarola spoke out against the papal practice of selling indulgences, so they hanged him and burned his body. Killing him once was presumably not enough.
"These people aren't given robes...they wash their robes (in the blood of Christ, no less-Rev7:9-17). This means they've chosen Him. They are standing in HEAVEN and will live there forever in that city He prepared for us! Furthermore, they are standing before the throne and before the Lamb...not under the alter as in Rev 6:9."
Nope, your assertion is false doctrine. Nowhere in scripture are our on garments acceptable, nor even suitable for eternal life. We are clothed by Yahuweh's Set-Apart spirit. You should know this by now as it is scripture 101.
hisdaughterjen said, "When are they taken? According to the verses in Rev 7, they come out of something called a 'great tribulation'. What is that? I believe it is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences that Jesus spoke about (they are also the seals in Rev) and that have been going on since Christ left. We've been in the "great tribulation" for almost 2000 years if it is defined as worldwide wars, famines, plagues, pestilences!
This is more false doctrine. You are saying there are two Great Tribulation periods. There is only one.
The rest of your post is difficult to make sense of and is clearly snipped out of context.
But I'll give it my best shot.
Sardis is a ref to the Ekklesia of Sardis Yahushua addressed and chastised for their lack of love of which a few repented.
"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, ‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’" (Revelation 3:1-6)
Placing Sardis in the context of history points this out in some shocking and unexpected ways. Though some would disagree, I believe Sardis represents the state of the Church at the time of the Reformation. The Catholic monolith had succumbed to the weight of its own pride and idolatry by this time, but the same small, faithful remnant in its ranks that had always been there was still accounted "worthy" to bear the name "Christian." Also worthy were the handful of courageous reformers who did us all an invaluable service by digging Biblical truth out of the rubble of a thousand years of suppression and neglect. But Yahshua isn’t talking about Catholics and Protestants here. He’s not taking sides between them. He’s pleading with His Church--His called-out assembly of believers--to be watchful, to wake up.
If John had seen it all clearly, he would have surely cringed at what he saw unfolding. After all, it was he who had written: "He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.... Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.... If someone says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also." (I John 2:10-11, 4:7-8, 20-21) Love his brother? The Reformation brought with it centuries of fratricide. It did not precipitate unity and repentance, but pride, hatred and war.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting that we would have been better off without the Reformation. But the Church--the whole body of Christ--handled it badly from the very beginning. After Peter Waldo tried in 1170 to return to the simplicity of the Apostolic church and set aside the top-heavy liturgy of the Roman system, Pope Innocent III instituted (in 1209) a purge of the Waldensians, slaughtering millions of these and other "heretics." When John Wycliffe translated the Bible into common English in 1383--the linguistic foundation of virtually every English translation to this very day--he so incensed the Roman hierarchy--whose lust for power had driven them to suppress it--that, though they couldn’t touch him during his lifetime, they dug up his bones and publicly desecrated them after his death. Girolamo Savonarola spoke out against the papal practice of selling indulgences, so they hanged him and burned his body. Killing him once was presumably not enough.
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hisdaughterjen said, "When are they taken? According to the verses in Rev 7, they come out of something called a 'great tribulation'. What is that? I believe it is the wars, famines, plagues, pestilences that Jesus spoke about (they are also the seals in Rev) and that have been going on since Christ left. We've been in the "great tribulation" for almost 2000 years if it is defined as worldwide wars, famines, plagues, pestilences!
This is more false doctrine. You are saying there are two Great Tribulation periods. There is only one.
The rest of your post is difficult to make sense of and is clearly snipped out of context.
enough.
Let's keep this on topic:
I would ask you to point me to a scripture that tells what the "great tribulation" is, when it is, & how long it is.
People assume it's seven years long because of the covenant with the many that is seven years long. Is the covenant with the many, then, the great tribulation?
There is no scripture that says the great tribulation is 7 years long and begins with the signing of the covenant.
Someone has assumed that and then taught it to the masses.
Now, we know what Jesus told us. Read Luke 21. There would be wars, plagues, famines and pestilences after Jerusalem falls and the people are scattered. Is it a coincidence that these are the same things that happen in the seals of Revelation?
So, define 'great tribulation" Biblically. How does Jesus define it?
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again.
PS: Your link to "YadaYahweh" that you gave above and keep referring people to ("For a more compehensive analysis of the Laodicean assembly, read:http://yadayahweh.com/Yada_Yahweh_Go..._Laodicea.YHWH" from post #27) is offensive because it says "God D*** Religion". While this may be a play on words, it is distasteful and not becoming of someone who professes Christ as King.
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I don't understand where your focus on Babylon and Iraq comes from, Vin...Am I missing something?Zechariah 6 is about Iraq at the end. The black horses do not go all over the earth - we are told they went to the north country.
So where is that?
Jeremiah 46:10
the Euphrates
/land by the Euphrates River
Jeremiah 10:22
out of the north country
to make the cities of Judah desolate
/Babylon
days of Nebuchadnezzar II
Take Zec 5 as ending that he was to know that a house will be built in Shinar....then he turns in Zechariah 6 and sees the house time of when Shinar will be built again.
When will Shinar be rebuilt?
Not till the end days of the coming Greek Empire for the endtime?
What shows us that?
the mountains are made of brass
I'm not moving onto the horse part yet - as we need to agree on this much so far.
Why brass?
Why do we know that Shinar will be built again?
/Daniel chapter 2
because the third kingdom time - is brass
and the wind carries empires that fall -as the empire hopes to rebuild again
Daniel 2:35
the iron, clay, brass,...{broken} to pieces
and the wind carried them
Zechariah 5:6
an ephah
/a piece of Shinar/
/fallen Babylon//
goeth forth
//The ephah is heading out - Why?
To look about the earth for a place to rebuild Babylon.//
their resemblance through all the earth
/shattered pieces everywhere of broken Babylon//
Now enters in the story...
verse 9
the wind
lifted up the ephah
...and///off to Shinar it goes//
It shall be established
It will take the four spirits of the heavens to rebuild the kingdom of Babylon....
enters chapter 6 of Zechariah and found in verse 5 -"... These are the four spirits of the heavens..."
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L
lecoop
Guest
Well, you're very close to what I'm asking...
It says in Rev 7:9-17 that we are the one's who come out of the great trib.
Now, that makes you think that we have endured it.
So, what have we endured? Wars, plagues, famines and pestilences unlike that world had ever seen up until the time of Jesus.
So Jesus isn't going to come get us until we endure at least 3 1/2 more years of wars, plagues, famines and pestilences, and persecution?
Then we aren't on the look-out for Christ, we're on the look-out for the end of the 3 1/2 years of wars, famines, etc. so that Christ will come.
This is where I think there is an error. Mankind has been experiencing wars, plagues, etc. on a HUGE scale since Jesus. Millions upon millions have died over the last 2000 years. This is the great tribulation. It has lasted since at least 70 AD until this very day.
We're looking for Christ, not 3 1/2 years of wars, famines, etc. and then Christ, right?
Jen, you are on the right track, and VERY close. We get into trouble with our nomenclature (sorry, military term!)
Actually, there are THREE "great tribulations." In Matthew 24, Jesus said, "then shall be "great tribulation." When? This "great tribulation" starts with the abomination event and goes for an unspecified period of time, probably MOST of the 42 months, but not all of it. Also, please understand, Jesus was NOT putting a title on the last half of the week, calling the last half of the week, "the great tribulation." Jesus "shortens" that time of intense persecution. How? With His vials.
Next, there is the "great tribulation" that the rapture pluckes us out of. Where is that "great tribulation?" It is around us now. It was "great tribulation" when the girl at Columbine was shot, because she said she was a Christain. Those beleivers that were just tortured and killed in Turkey were in "great tribulation." If one dies becuase of his or her stand on Jesus the Christ, he or she was in "great tribulation." It cannot get any worse than to become a martyr.
Finally, there is "great tribulation," that God can create any time He wants, for any purpose He wants! As he told the one church, if they did not straighten out, He would send them "great tribulation."
So to answer your question, we, the church, will be taken out of "great tribulation," but it will NOT be "those days of great tribulation" that will follow the abomination event. They will be the very worst days of tribulation.
When will we be taken out? The dead in Christ shall rise first. "The ground shook and the graves were opened." This was a fact when Jesus died. Earthquakes and resurrections go together. When God puts together the molecules of human bodies long sense turned to dust, the ground will shake! Where then, before chapter 7, do we read of a great earthquake?
Coop
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AMEN! HALLELUJAH!!!! That's the only thing that includes ALL saints, living and dead!Jen, you are on the right track, and VERY close. We get into trouble with our nomenclature (sorry, military term!)
Actually, there are THREE "great tribulations." In Matthew 24, Jesus said, "then shall be "great tribulation." When? This "great tribulation" starts with the abomination event and goes for an unspecified period of time, probably MOST of the 42 months, but not all of it. Also, please understand, Jesus was NOT putting a title on the last half of the week, calling the last half of the week, "the great tribulation." Jesus "shortens" that time of intense persecution. How? With His vials.
Next, there is the "great tribulation" that the rapture pluckes us out of. Where is that "great tribulation?" It is around us now. It was "great tribulation" when the girl at Columbine was shot, because she said she was a Christain. Those beleivers that were just tortured and killed in Turkey were in "great tribulation." If one dies becuase of his or her stand on Jesus the Christ, he or she was in "great tribulation." It cannot get any worse than to become a martyr.
Finally, there is "great tribulation," that God can create any time He wants, for any purpose He wants! As he told the one church, if they did not straighten out, He would send them "great tribulation."
So to answer your question, we, the church, will be taken out of "great tribulation," but it will NOT be "those days of great tribulation" that will follow the abomination event. They will be the very worst days of tribulation.
When will we be taken out? The dead in Christ shall rise first. "The ground shook and the graves were opened." This was a fact when Jesus died. Earthquakes and resurrections go together. When God puts together the molecules of human bodies long sense turned to dust, the ground will shake!
Coop
That's why there such a big earthquake in the 6th seal. The dead are rising and we're being caught up! Then, everybody here freaks out and turns to their false hope, the antichrist, who is then revealed. ....Yeah...it makes perfect sense! The 144000 are sealed and then the trumpets begin...
Cool!
Got anything else to share!?!
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Well, is there enough time for that to happen if we're on the verge of the final years seeing as how there's going to be judgment and wrath poured out...etc.
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lecoop
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When the nation of Iraq/Shinar began is when the seals started to be opened by Jesus.
The horses of the north country have already started to get their riders as the rulers of Iraq.
The 4th seal is the man of sin - the one with many ways to kill people/as in set for the time of four corners on the earth.
the time where the Bible shows - the wickedest man is to come on Israel
By the end of Rev. 7 - the ones in white robes of the 5th seal are seen in the temple in heaven. Rev. 15 applied to that reveals that all of the trumpets are over first/the first set of seven plagues.
I really do try to find one thing you write, that I can agree with. It seems I fail with every post. : -((
John shows us that the first seals were broken about 33 AD. Is that when Iraq came into existance?
"The 4th seal is the man if sin..." Why would you say that? The 4th seal was broken about 33 AD. Was the "man of sin," alive then? The 4th seal (as well as the 2nd, and 3rd) are LIMITED to 1/4 of the earth. Will the man of sin be limited? Not according to John in chapter 13. The 4th seals was named "death." Is there a verse anywhere naming the "man of sin," of the beast, "Death?"
Maybe, just maybe, I can agree with you on your next point! : -)))) The 5th seal are the martyrs of the church - before the 70th week. And therefore, would be [a small part of] "the dead in Christ." They will rise first, so they will most certainly be part of that crowd in Rev. 7. The rest of that crowd, will be those that are "alive and remain."
Revelation [15] CANNOT be applied to that, because it happens at a later time.
Coop
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