What if the Pre-Tribulation . . .

[Jamdoc]

Paul founded the gentile churches

Other apostles planted churches in other parts of the world too. The great commission was given to the disciples before Paul
It's not a hard dispensational division, it's the Church of Jesus Christ not "well these churches are for the Jews and these Churches are for gentiles" Paul was a Jew too, a hardcore Pharisee in fact. Honestly that's part of why Jesus chose Paul, because Paul was an excellent student of scripture. People don't seem to realize it and think Paul pulled doctrine from direct revelation, just out of the air but as the Bereans showed, Paul was teaching doctrines that were obscured in the Old Testament, but showed things such as the rapture, a second coming, salvation by grace, those doctrines attributed to Paul? All given in the Old Testament but kind of hidden.
You NEEDED someone like a former Pharisee to pull those details out into the light and expound them.
There's been questions sometimes, on how your doctrines would change without the letters of Paul, because people think Paul basically invented doctrines that did not exist in the rest of scripture.
and I knew, that I could pull the same doctrines from John, or even the Old Testament. Because Paul got them from the Old Testament, they were ILLUMINATED by the Holy Spirit, but they were not pulled out of thin air, but rather pulled from the Word of God.

So please don't "I am of Paul" and they are "of Cephas (Peter)". We are of Christ.
The audience of the Olivet Discourse, was Disciples of Jesus, not unbelieving Jews. Unbelieving Jews aren't going to be reading Matthew 24. That's gentile stuff to them (even though it was written by a Jew)

And the vaccines? What’s the true purpose of that ?

The vaccines were not created as some Nefarious thing deliberately.. but rather they wanted to test a new technology.

Now what that technology might be used for in the future may be nefarious.
But the vaccine itself is not the mark of the beast or some intentional means of killing a bunch of people
It is, at least as far as the actual scientists designing the things goes (Maybe not those over top of those scientists directing them), they were testing a new technology that they hoped would be effective and allow for vaccines to be produced more quickly, as traditional vaccines can take years to get developed and approved.

I suppose how I would look at it..
the Pandemic was not tribulation, but the government response to the pandemic was tribulation, shutting down freedom of movement, arresting pastors for having their churches open, vaccine MANDATES, that's all tribulation.
But the disease itself? It's a disease. It may have been developed for studying bioweapons, but it itself was not released as one intentionally. It leaked. Had it been intentional, the Chinese would have sent it over in shipping containers and the first place hit would be the US.. not China right outside the laboratory where it was created. That was a screwup is what it seems to be, the wicked of course, seized upon it as an opportunity, and there are plans for actual man caused pandemics to be released intentionally.
This one though.. seems to have been incompetence and released too early.

 

[dfw69]

It's American Christians that most purport the pretribulation rapture,

So what , big deal … does that make us mystery Babylon? … if you think so … you are in the dark and truly don’t realize who the enemies of the gospel are….

that hold the notion that "God loves us too much to let us go through persecution!"

We are in persecution now .. the scriptures testify of it .. even Jesus said if the world hated me they will hate us .. we been put down since the birth of Christianity (not the chatholic church) what I mean by Christianity I mean followers of Christ

Just because we believe he will spare us from the great tribulation and wrath … you dubb us mystery Babylon and judge us arrogant and prideful and we walk in wickedness and darkness because we don’t serve the law?

It's not about God proving love for us, it's about the idea that "God won't give us over to persecution because He loves us too much" is ridiculous.

Is it ridiculous? I don’t believe so … have you not heard this scripture before? Romans 9:18

It's just not biblical. On the contrary saints are given over to tribulation so that they can be martyrs, which means "witnesses" which is for their testimony, it's not about God proving His love for us it's about our proving our love for God to the world that does not believe. On the contrary Jesus encourages people going through tribulation with rewards and promises, promises to avenge them (that is what the wrath of God is after all, avenging the saints that were martyred)

Witnesses to deaf ears who turn to kill them? What glory is in that?

But it may be according to your faith my friend careful what you wish for

If you choose to be a martyr for him ..go for it … but if there is an open door to escape .. I’m taking it .. it would be an insult not to ..

2 witnesses establish the truth, where's the other witness to any idea of multiple raptures at the end of the age?

You seem to be a wise man … do you not see multiple raptures in revelation? If so you are witness #2

John was in heaven, yes, the heaven standing open means He was looking down on the Earth from heaven, not on Earth looking up into heaven.

But he said “there before me” implies they are still in heaven ..and the door standing open implies they are about exit… to battle the gathering armies on earth

They talk about the lamb, but they don't worship Him in heaven because He's not there.

But John just mentioned that he is with the armies … he said “there before me”

The "her" is the city, that's Revelation 17

Then god did not technically destroy her like Sodom and Gomorrah…but humans did his will with nuclear bombs as you say …yet Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by god himself and I believe the scripture will be fulfilled by god not man … will see

For some reason people think God wouldn't let people nuke a city to destroy it, no idea why, Hiroshima and Nagasaki got destroyed by fire in an hour or less. The bible says the 10 Kings do it carrying out the will of God, that's the means 10 Kings have to do it, but people think God wouldn't let a nuclear weapon get used, and therefore God must destroy it Himself because it's impossible for men to destroy a city in an hour.... except it's not, you just have to not place rules on what you think God will let man in his wickedness do when they have the means.

I never said that.. .the Syrian bomb was recently used and was covered up as …whatever

I know a nuclear weapon can be used and has been used and most likely will again be used to destroy…

But on Judgement day ..it is god repayment for the destruction man has done on the earth …it will be miraculous not a man made weapon and it’s evident in the 7th vail….

Not from OUR past. From the past of the people in Revelation 7. That's what the text says. That the saints came out of great tribulation, it's over by the 6th seal.

Oh lol my bad

Jesus was the one caught up to heaven and God's throne., the man child is Jesus.

The 144000 will be caught up and it refers to not dying… Jesus died and ascended not caught up from a flood

Babylon is a global government. It's the city that reigns over the kings of the Earth, but it's not limited to just that city. Babylon itself I don't think is located in America but I do think what's left of America after the 4th seal will be ruled by Babylon, and so, America is part of Babylon.

You think It’s Rome right? And all those pesky followers of Jesus nations who deny the law and are anti semitic and practice Babylonian paganism

that Santa worship is so horrible is gonna take them all to hell

and oh that monsterous Easter bunny oh
God wrath is coming for them lying to their children

those Christians generations of vipers hypocrites white sepulchers wolves in sheep’s clothing serpents

With their doctrine of devils rapture theory

Those evil Christian synagogues of satan with their worshiping Jesus

If this is in your heart you clearly fail to see who the enemies of the good news are … careful you don’t become one of them

the verbage is "are become" as in this is happening now,

Yes what took place that made it so ?

and remember Revelation 10:7, the 7th trumpet is the full revealing of the mystery of God.

It's done, that's it, that's the end.

As in the 7th trumpet ended the reign of something that reign before? But to this point no longer is in control?

It's not "well, now let's put Antichrist in charge"

He has a specific purpose… what could it be ? ….That he is allowed to continue even after all the signs before him

 

[dfw69]

Other apostles planted churches in other parts of the world too. The great commission was given to the disciples before Paul

Gee I wish we had letters from them to the gentile churches

It's not a hard dispensational division, it's the Church of Jesus Christ not "well these churches are for the Jews and these Churches are for gentiles" Paul was a Jew too, a hardcore Pharisee in fact. Honestly that's part of why Jesus chose Paul, because Paul was an excellent student of scripture.

Yes he was

People don't seem to realize it and think Paul pulled doctrine from direct revelation, just out of the air but as the Bereans showed, Paul was teaching doctrines that were obscured in the Old Testament, but showed things such as the rapture, a second coming, salvation by grace, those doctrines attributed to Paul?

No Darby … lol

All given in the Old Testament but kind of hidden.
You NEEDED someone like a former Pharisee to pull those details out into the light and expound them.

Yep I agree

There's been questions sometimes, on how your doctrines would change without the letters of Paul, because people think Paul basically invented doctrines that did not exist in the rest of scripture.
and I knew, that I could pull the same doctrines from John, or even the Old Testament. Because Paul got them from the Old Testament, they were ILLUMINATED by the Holy Spirit, but they were not pulled out of thin air, but rather pulled from the Word of God.

Well some things were mysteries not known so it seems some things were by revelation of the spirit

So please don't "I am of Paul" and they are "of Cephas (Peter)". We are of Christ.
The audience of the Olivet Discourse, was Disciples of Jesus, not unbelieving Jews. Unbelieving Jews aren't going to be reading Matthew 24. That's gentile stuff to them (even though it was written by a Jew)

I have to disagree here … this is another long discussion …

The vaccines were not created as some Nefarious thing deliberately.. but rather they wanted to test a new technology.

The children of god are not quinine pigs

Now what that technology might be used for in the future may be nefarious.
But the vaccine itself is not the mark of the beast

Never believed it was

or some intentional means of killing a bunch of people

Though many died ..

It is, at least as far as the actual scientists designing the things goes (Maybe not those over top of those scientists directing them), they were testing a new technology that they hoped would be effective and allow for vaccines to be produced more quickly, as traditional vaccines can take years to get developed and approved.

I suppose how I would look at it..
the Pandemic was not tribulation, but the government response to the pandemic was tribulation, shutting down freedom of movement, arresting pastors for having their churches open, vaccine MANDATES, that's all tribulation.
But the disease itself? It's a disease.

Man made disease

It may have been developed for studying bioweapons, but it itself was not released as one intentionally. It leaked.

Sure it did …

Had it been intentional, the Chinese would have sent it over in shipping containers and the first place hit would be the US..

the Chinese ? They must be mystery Babylon

not China right outside the laboratory where it was created. That was a screwup is what it seems to be, the wicked of course, seized upon it as an opportunity, and there are plans for actual man caused pandemics to be released intentionally.

Yep no doubt

This one though.. seems to have been incompetence and released too early.

Yet the vast vaccine came so quickly in stockpiles to combat the incompetence… nah bro it was all well planned

 

[Jamdoc]

So what , big deal … does that make us mystery Babylon? … if you think so … you are in the dark and truly don’t realize who the enemies of the gospel are….

The whole world, including the US will be controlled as part of Babylon, and a lot of churchgoing people in the US, and elsewhere will fall away. That's what Paul referred to.
That comes before the Antichrist

We are in persecution now .. the scriptures testify of it .. even Jesus said if the world hated me they will hate us .. we been put down since the birth of Christianity (not the chatholic church) what I mean by Christianity I mean followers of Christ

Just because we believe he will spare us from the great tribulation and wrath … you dubb us mystery Babylon and judge us arrogant and prideful and we walk in wickedness and darkness because we don’t serve the law?

When you say statements like "God loves us too much to have us go through persecution while Afghani Christians were murdered by the Taliban, yes. Their faith should be inspiration to ours, not looking at them as "they must be unloved by God because God raptures away people who He really loves!" kind of logic.

Is it ridiculous? I don’t believe so … have you not heard this scripture before? Romans 9:18

Context is to why some are saved and some are not, not regarding why some are made martyrs.

Witnesses to deaf ears who turn to kill them? What glory is in that?

Might not make sense logically, but martyrdom grows the church. The places where the church is growing the fastest, places like Iran, are where it's illegal and people are persecuted the most. Remember Saint Stephen? Martyred, and who was watching it who later was used mightily by God? Saul. The seeds of Paul's conversion were planted when he witnessed the martyring of Stephen.
The way Stephen died, the way he was convicted in his beliefs, the way he asked for forgiveness for those who stoned him to death, that all began weighing on Paul, so that when Paul had the encounter with Jesus? Paul would believe it. Many Pharisees saw miracles that Jesus did and attributed them to demonic power. Had Paul not witnessed the Martyring of Stephen, had Paul not persecuted Christians and seen their faith.. maybe Paul would have written off a divine encounter as demonic, who knows.

God's ways are higher than our ways and sometimes, that includes our personal suffering.

But it may be according to your faith my friend careful what you wish for

If you choose to be a martyr for him ..go for it … but if there is an open door to escape .. I’m taking it .. it would be an insult not to ..

It isn't about what I want at all, that's the point. We yield to a higher will, regardless of what He ordains for us.

You seem to be a wise man … do you not see multiple raptures in revelation? If so you are witness #2

Contrary, I'm a fool, it's the spirit that has any wisdom to share with me.

and no, I see one, and the wisdom is in making the connections to where and when it is.

But he said “there before me” implies they are still in heaven ..and the door standing open implies they are about exit… to battle the gathering armies on earth

Oh, the saints were in heaven, they just see Christ on Earth and join Him. Isaiah 63, Isaiah encounters Jesus when Jesus is coming back from Edom. Isaiah doesn't describe riding a flying white horse down from heaven with Jesus. He describes meeting Jesus on Earth when Jesus came back from Edom, covered in blood, having tread the winepress of His wrath alone.

Revelation 19 is when the saints rejoin Jesus, having been prepared in heaven.
They don't see Jesus until the heavens open, and they are... in heaven.

Meaning Jesus was not in heaven being worshiped as He would be if He were in heaven at that time

Then god did not technically destroy her like Sodom and Gomorrah…but humans did his will with nuclear bombs as you say …yet Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed by god himself and I believe the scripture will be fulfilled by god not man … will see

Revelation 17 nor 18 mention God destroying the city like Sodom. Revelation 17 mentions the 18 kings doing it at God's direction.
There's no brimstone in Revelation 17 or 18.

I never said that.. .the Syrian bomb was recently used and was covered up as …whatever

I know a nuclear weapon can be used and has been used and most likely will again be used to destroy…

But on Judgement day ..it is god repayment for the destruction man has done on the earth …it will be miraculous not a man made weapon and it’s evident in the 7th vail….

actually in the text, it is because of the persecution of the saints that Babylon is destroyed.

Revelation 18

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Nothing to do with destruction of the Earth, but rather the spilled blood of the saints.
In Revelation 17 where this is given symbolically we see

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

anyway

The 144000 will be caught up and it refers to not dying… Jesus died and ascended not caught up from a flood

He's caught up from the dragon trying to devour Him when He was born, not a flood. Remember Herod's attempts to kill all the male babies in Bethlehem? Even the crucifixion itself was Satan's attempts to eliminate the Messiah because Satan didn't understand the Messianic prophecies and thought if he gets Jesus killed, he wins. But instead Jesus was resurrected and caught up to heaven.

The flood is targeted at the woman, not the man child, it's targeted at Israel that gave birth to the manchild. Satan has tried to eliminate Israel multiple times because then he can claim God lied.

You think It’s Rome right? And all those pesky followers of Jesus nations who deny the law and are anti semitic and practice Babylonian paganism

no, I don't know which city will actually be Babylon. I think the 4th seal will upend the current world so much that we won't know what cities will still exist at that time or not.
Remember I believe the 4th seal is a world war, with a nuclear or biological war exchange, most likely nuclear. Cities like New York, Rome, Moscow, probably won't exist.
That's why I say "what's left" of America.

Yes what took place that made it so ?

Jesus came back, and at Revelation 11:15 He's arriving back in Jerusalem and establishing the Kingdom.

As in the 7th trumpet ended the reign of something that reign before? But to this point no longer is in control?


He has a specific purpose… what could it be ? ….That he is allowed to continue even after all the signs before him

As in Jesus now rules and reigns for ever and ever.
Not Jesus rules and reigns and then... gives authority BACK to Satan so Satan can give it to the beast.

 

[Jamdoc]

Gee I wish we had letters from them to the gentile churches

I dunno I seem to remember John writing letters to 7 churches in Asia Minor...

Yep I agree

Well some things were mysteries not known so it seems some things were by revelation of the spirit

If Paul had been teaching things that could not be found in the Old Testament (after Paul pointed them out to say, the Bereans) they'd have stoned him to death, in fact, they did try to because people DID think he was pulling them out of thin air/making them up, the Bereans searched the scriptures and saw what Paul taught was true.

But if any man were to claim to be an apostle of the Messiah and then teach contrary to the word of God? they'd be right to stone him.

I have to disagree here … this is another long discussion …

Trying to talk to Jews using the new testament largely gets disregarded, as that's not scripture to them. They don't read Matthew or Mark, or Luke. They don't convert until they see Jesus in the clouds. That's Zechariah 12. That's why they mourn. Because they realize that they'd had the Messiah and rejected and killed Him.
The bible doesn't teach that the Jews will witness a pretribulation poof and start reading the new testament for instructions on what to do now.
I know Tim Lahey might say that's what he thinks happens but it's not what the bible says happens.

The children of god are not quinine pigs

Never believed it was




Though many died ..


Man made disease



Sure it did …

the Chinese ? They must be mystery Babylon





Yep no doubt

Yet the vast vaccine came so quickly in stockpiles to combat the incompetence… nah bro it was all well planned

It took about a year to develop the vaccines and get them preliminary approval. Not until the end of 2020 did we have any vaccines.
and as I said, that's part of why they went mRNA, because they could get it faster. It was again, testing a new technology As to where that technology might be used in the future? Could be for evil, but at first at least, it was trying to combat a disease.

if it was all an intentional malice driven thing.. leaders and the scientists who made the vaccines wouldn't have taken it.... but they did.
It's just a largely untested, rushed vaccine, but not deliberately made with malicious intent. Not on the part of the scientists making it anyway. Those above them may have other plans for the technology used.

 

[dfw69]

When you say statements like "God loves us too much to have us go through persecution

Is someone rewriting my quotes ? Are you not getting what I’ve been saying ? Or are you not reading my replies correctly nor not understanding what I’ve been saying …. Is CF AI deliberately creating strife ?

because I never said “god loved us too much to have is go through persecution”

You go back at what is said and you will not find this quote at all … so what’s really going on???

while Afghani Christians were murdered by the Taliban, yes. Their faith should be inspiration to ours, not looking at them as "they must be unloved by God because God raptures away people who He really loves!" kind of logic.

Again you are putting words into my mouth and not understanding what I’ve been saying at all … why do you quote this as if this is my thought when I did not say what you wrote?

Do you not see what you are doing? Your putting thoughts into my mouth as if that’s what I’m thinking to create an argument to defend your view

Can’t have a proper conversation this way and I’m enjoying your conversations thus far … stop doing that please it’s very annoying….and quote what i actually say …and not what u think Im saying because those thought are actually coming from you …not me

I hope this is not some tactic you are using to push me away or to end our conversation …if you wanna stop just don’t reply back … no big deal … u know?

Might not make sense logically, but martyrdom grows the church. The places where the church is growing the fastest, places like Iran, are where it's illegal and people are persecuted the most.

Now your justifying why god allows martyrdoms to grow the church? …are there not better ways to grow a church ?



The church in Iran? I’ve never been to Iran why would I believe a church in iran exist and is growing because of persecution ?

Remember Saint Stephen? Martyred, and who was watching it who later was used mightily by God? Saul. The seeds of Paul's conversion were planted when he witnessed the martyring of Stephen.
The way Stephen died, the way he was convicted in his beliefs, the way he asked for forgiveness for those who stoned him to death, that all began weighing on Paul, so that when Paul had the encounter with Jesus? Paul would believe it. Many Pharisees saw miracles that Jesus did and attributed them to demonic power. Had Paul not witnessed the Martyring of Stephen, had Paul not persecuted Christians and seen their faith.. maybe Paul would have written off a divine encounter as demonic, who knows.

So it took Stephen martyrdom for Paul’s conversion?

Let’s me see ..who was martyred before me to convince me that Jesus was real?

Jesus died …but I didn’t witness it … yet I believe…

But for others to believe they must be martyrdoms so they can be convinced?

Yea I’m not buying it

Paul when he saw the death of him , was pleased and saw it pleased his fellow Pharisees, his blind zeal sought out more to persecute he was a part of the synagogue of satan until his conversion

Revelation 17 nor 18 mention God destroying the city like Sodom.

Zech 5 does …

Revelation 17 mentions the 18 kings doing it at God's direction.
There's no brimstone in Revelation 17 or 18.

No need for fire and brimstone as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah… but as god destroy those cities … through his wrath and his judgement by miracles from Heaven she too will fall not by the hands of men

He's caught up from the dragon trying to devour Him when He was born, not a flood. Remember Herod's attempts to kill all the male babies in Bethlehem? Even the crucifixion itself was Satan's attempts to eliminate the Messiah because Satan didn't understand the Messianic prophecies and thought if he gets Jesus killed, he wins. But instead Jesus was resurrected and caught up to heaven.

Good try but no…

The flood is targeted at the woman, not the man child, it's targeted at Israel that gave birth to the manchild. Satan has tried to eliminate Israel multiple times because then he can claim God lied.

Yes correct …satan wanted to eat her child not send a flood after the manchild

Herod did send a flood to kill all the babies in Bethlehem so that testifies it is not Jesus

12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Notice the time frame? It takes place when Israel flees to the wilderness for 1260 same time frame when the 2 witnesses come ?

So this is the brthpains that Jesus was referring to in Matt 24 which started this conversation

As in Jesus now rules and reigns for ever and ever.

Not yet …

Not Jesus rules and reigns and then... gives authority BACK to Satan so Satan can give it to the beast.

I ask you why there is rejoicing in rev 11:15
After the 7 trumpets
I did not get an answer
But I will tell you anyway

It’s because mystery Babylon has finally lost its powers to rule and reign …
She who rode the beast for so long and has created prostitutes through the wine of her fornication has finally come to an end …

 

[dfw69]

I dunno I seem to remember John writing letters to 7 churches in Asia Minor...

True but that don’t mean he started them…he was told by Jesus to send the revelation to them …

If Paul had been teaching things that could not be found in the Old Testament (after Paul pointed them out to say, the Bereans) they'd have stoned him to death, in fact, they did try to because people DID think he was pulling them out of thin air/making them up, the Bereans searched the scriptures and saw what Paul taught was true.

So where is the rapture event described by Paul in the old scriptures?

But if any man were to claim to be an apostle of the Messiah and then teach contrary to the word of God? they'd be right to stone him.

No man has the right to stone another …
He that is without sin let him cast the first stone …

The Jews had that power when god presence lived with them and they had divine access at one time and could make righteous judgments

Trying to talk to Jews using the new testament largely gets disregarded, as that's not scripture to them. They don't read Matthew or Mark, or Luke. They don't convert until they see Jesus in the clouds.

Yes

That's Zechariah 12. That's why they mourn. Because they realize that they'd had the Messiah and rejected and killed Him.

Yes

The bible doesn't teach that the Jews will witness a pretribulation poof and start reading the new testament for instructions on what to do now.

idk ..maybe ..maybe not..

The pretrib (with no poof) may not be for them …they don’t believe in the truth ….it’s only for the believers who believe first … the first fruits of Christ

And I personally believe anyone serving the law will not be able to go as well so that will exclude them…

Anyone who falls away back to the law though the believe in Jesus will be counted unworthy to enter because they fall from the grace that is in Christ

I know Tim Lahey might say that's what he thinks happens but it's not what the bible says happens.

Whose Tim lahey?

if it was all an intentional malice driven thing.. leaders and the scientists who made the vaccines wouldn't have taken it.... but they did.

They took saline probably lol

It's just a largely untested, rushed vaccine, but not deliberately made with malicious intent. Not on the part of the scientists making it anyway. Those above them may have other plans for the technology used.

For evil? Like how? Any ideas?

 

[dfw69]

The audience of the Olivet Discourse were the men who founded the Church, not unbelieving Pharisees.

as far as we know the pandemic was created by men to study potential pandemic pathogens and leaked accidentally. It wasn't used deliberately as far as we know.

Sorry to bombard you today I had a lot of time on my hands …

Still waiting for your response on my rapture theory

Peace …

 

[Jamdoc]

Is someone rewriting my quotes ? Are you not getting what I’ve been saying ? Or are you not reading my replies correctly nor not understanding what I’ve been saying …. Is CF AI deliberately creating strife ?

I'm meaning it as in like, 2nd person plural address, which is still "you" as in, pretribulationists in general which give the rationale that God won't let believers go through persecution because He loves them too much.
I consider the idea not fitting scripture as God loves the persecuted and martyred quite a bit.

Now your justifying why god allows martyrdoms to grow the church? …are there not better ways to grow a church ?

Doesn't seem logical, but it seems to work throughout history and still does today. Underground churches thrive and grow in the places where Christianity is persecuted the most.
We follow a crucified Messiah and He is our example.

The church in Iran? I’ve never been to Iran why would I believe a church in iran exist and is growing because of persecution ?

Iran has world’s ‘fastest-growing church,’ despite no buildings - and it's mostly led by women: documentary

So it took Stephen martyrdom for Paul’s conversion?

It may have. I don't think Stephen's martyrdom was in vain it served a purpose and one of those purposes may have been planting a seed in Saul that eventually grew into his conversion. Saul is mentioned at the stoning of Stephen for a reason biblically.

Zech 5 does …

I don't see mention of Sodom, fire or Brimstone in Zechariah 5, and only the mention of Shinar could be connected to Babylon but that's more specifically tower of Babel or historical Babylon.

No need for fire and brimstone as it was for Sodom and Gomorrah… but as god destroy those cities … through his wrath and his judgement by miracles from Heaven she too will fall not by the hands of men

But Revelation 17 says the 10 kings do it.

Good try but no…

Yes correct …satan wanted to eat her child not send a flood after the manchild

Herod did send a flood to kill all the babies in Bethlehem so that testifies it is not Jesus

Notice the time frame? It takes place when Israel flees to the wilderness for 1260 same time frame when the 2 witnesses come ?

Th flood is sent after the woman, not after a manchild, so no it's not the 144k.

Not yet …

I ask you why there is rejoicing in rev 11:15
After the 7 trumpets
I did not get an answer
But I will tell you anyway

It’s because mystery Babylon has finally lost its powers to rule and reign …
She who rode the beast for so long and has created prostitutes through the wine of her fornication has finally come to an end …

So you believe Jesus comes to rule and reign for ever and ever.. and first act, is give the world back to Satan?
Because Revelation 13:2 it is Satan that gives the power and authority to the beast. That means Satan has power and authority himself.
If Jesus took it away, he can't give it to the beast.
Satan has power and authority now, until the consummation.

True but that don’t mean he started them…he was told by Jesus to send the revelation to them …

The point is it's not a hard line dispensationalist thing of "apostles to the Jews" and "apostle to the gentiles" they were apostles of Christ and all had the same great commission. They sent Paul and Barnabas first, but over time, John, Peter, the other apostles all planted and oversaw churches in gentile lands.

So where is the rapture event described by Paul in the old scriptures?

I think I showed you a few of them before
Zechariah 9:

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

Jesus makes reference to this in Matthew 24 (even describing his second coming as going forth like lightning), and Paul saw it and referred to it in 1 Thessalonians 4 as well, particularly the catching up into the air referring to the being lifted up as an ensign upon the land. Note that when Jesus said the Son of Man would do these things, it was a claim to be the Lord God.

Isaiah 26

18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

So there we have a time of troubles/birth pains, then the resurrection, followed by Isaiah inviting people to hide from the indignation of God, and the final verse there actually sounds a bit like the 2nd vial doesn't it? So it definitely depicts resurrection before the wrath of God, and an invitation to take refuge.. where?
I'd argue heaven, post trib would say something silly like we'll be taken to the temple in Jerusalem where we're all supposed to cram into an earthly building or something.
But definitely in this scripture the wrath of God comes AFTER the Lord comes out of His place, and the resurrection takes place before the indignation.

No man has the right to stone another …
He that is without sin let him cast the first stone …

They were old testament practicing Jews, stoning was the punishment given by the law of Moses for a false prophet who taught people against the word of God. If Paul had been teaching contrary to the Word of God, they'd be obeying the law of Moses in stoning him.

That is why it is crucial that Paul's doctrines CAN be found in the old testament.
Seeing the Old Testament as Paul saw it can be enlightening.

The pretrib (with no poof) may not be for them …they don’t believe in the truth ….it’s only for the believers who believe first … the first fruits of Christ

The bible says those that pierced Him will look on Him in the clouds and mourn, that is when they repent. Not after reading the gospels in the bible after the rapture That's nowhere in scripture.
Sure enough, Revelation 7 after the 6th seal are when the first fruits appear.
I believe that is when they are converted, where unbelievers say hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the Lamb, the 144,000 repent.

Whose Tim lahey?

Author of the Left Behind series.

They took saline probably lol

Probably not, or they'd have been very strict about isolation being unvaccinated. The president is 80 years old. They wouldn't let him be going around unvaxxed. The fact that he's gotten covid multiple times does show that the vaccine doesn't work very well anymore, it was made using the spike protein of the first "alpha" variant, and that's the protein that mutates the most in the virus. It was poorly thought out. I only have a bs and only have 1 immunology class under my belt and I can say that immunizing against 1 protein in an RNA virus was doomed to become obsolete quickly. They needed to use multiple proteins for redundancy (less likely that random mutations will happen to multiple proteins at once), preferably a highly conserved protein that's common between all coronaviruses. Also from that one class, and having autoimmunity myself.. I can tell you that "vaccinating" by sending genetic code to your cells to make viral proteins that they express on their surface is kind of a bad idea because it trains your immune cells in how to attack your own cells, and there's heightened risk of developing autoimmunity. Something the European Medicine's Agency noted in their evaluation of Pfizer's vaccine in their leaked documents that I read... and.. you know the Myocarditis and Pericarditis? Well... they find elevated levels of autoantibodies in the people who develop those side effects, likely it's because you've trained the immune system to attack muscle tissue where the vaccine was injected... and the heart is .. muscle tissue.

It is ultimately a pretty bad idea and poor immunology.. but they thought you could make vaccines faster that way, since you just have to change the genetic code as need arises, and the vaccine wouldn't contain any proteins for people to have allergic reactions to.... but people developed allergic reactions anyway so.. yeah.. I'd consider it a failed experiment.

For evil? Like how? Any ideas?

well, you're sending genetic instructions to people's bodies for them to produce a protein in their cells
in this case it was to send a code to produce a viral protein hoping to generate an immune response but you could send instructions to program cells to produce all kinds of proteins. You could use mRNA "vaccines" for instance to program cells to produce estrogens or testosterone to "convert" children's genders, you could inject mRNA in soldiers to have them produce enzymes and hormones to make them more aggressive, more muscular, "super soldier' kind of modifications
There's a lot you can do when you can just send genetic instructions to a person's body with a needle.

 

[dfw69]

I'm meaning it as in like, 2nd person plural address, which is still "you" as in, pretribulationists in general which give the rationale that God won't let believers go through persecution because He loves them too much.
I consider the idea not fitting scripture as God loves the persecuted and martyred quite a bit.

Oh …well I don’t believe like other pretrib

Yes god loves the martyrs and the persecuted I agree

But it’s not god will just because such things happen

But I’ve been trying to explain to you why there is a pretrib rapture .. simply put our time is coming for whatever purpose god has for us … if it’s to save from further persecutions …remains to be seen

So you believe Jesus comes to rule and reign for ever and ever.. and first act, is give the world back to Satan?
Because Revelation 13:2 it is Satan that gives the power and authority to the beast. That means Satan has power and authority himself.
If Jesus took it away, he can't give it to the beast.
Satan has power and authority now, until the consummation.

No I believe Jesus has all the power and authority from his father and as the scripture says he must put everything down and the last enemy is death

Has he begun to do so? Not yet

It’s says the kingdom has become the kingdom of Christ meaning it was taken away from mystery Babylon this is going to be a glorious day for heaven

But he now has to rid the AC and FP that was allowed to be let loose to accomplish gods will as part of judgment on the wicked

So there we have a time of troubles/birth pains, then the resurrection, followed by Isaiah inviting people to hide from the indignation of God, and the final verse there actually sounds a bit like the 2nd vial doesn't it? So it definitely depicts resurrection before the wrath of God, and an invitation to take refuge.. where?
I'd argue heaven, post trib would say something silly like we'll be taken to the temple in Jerusalem where we're all supposed to cram into an earthly building or something.
But definitely in this scripture the wrath of God comes AFTER the Lord comes out of His place, and the resurrection takes place before the indignation.

Petra I’m the mountains east of Jerusalem is said to be a hidden place from invasion from AC and the AOD

The bible says those that pierced Him will look on Him in the clouds and mourn, that is when they repent. Not after reading the gospels in the bible after the rapture That's nowhere in scripture.

Well we know the spirit will be pour out to the Jews…. the latter rain will testify and also the martyrs will testify and their is
A flying angel preaching the everlasting gospel at the very least to testify …

Sure enough, Revelation 7 after the 6th seal are when the first fruits appear.
I believe that is when they are converted, where unbelievers say hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the Lamb, the 144,000 repent.

We are the barley harvest … the barley harvest comes before the wheat harvest

These 144k are the first fruits of the wheat harvest

The grape harvest is in the fall

these testify of resurrections and rapture and gatherings

Author of the Left Behind series

Oh I never saw the series …

Probably not, or they'd have been very strict about isolation being unvaccinated. The president is 80 years old. They wouldn't let him be going around unvaxxed. The fact that he's gotten covid multiple times does show that the vaccine doesn't work very well anymore, it was made using the spike protein of the first "alpha" variant, and that's the protein that mutates the most in the virus. It was poorly thought out. I only have a bs and only have 1 immunology class under my belt and I can say that immunizing against 1 protein in an RNA virus was doomed to become obsolete quickly. They needed to use multiple proteins for redundancy (less likely that random mutations will happen to multiple proteins at once), preferably a highly conserved protein that's common between all coronaviruses. Also from that one class, and having autoimmunity myself.. I can tell you that "vaccinating" by sending genetic code to your cells to make viral proteins that they express on their surface is kind of a bad idea because it trains your immune cells in how to attack your own cells, and there's heightened risk of developing autoimmunity. Something the European Medicine's Agency noted in their evaluation of Pfizer's vaccine in their leaked documents that I read... and.. you know the Myocarditis and Pericarditis? Well... they find elevated levels of autoantibodies in the people who develop those side effects, likely it's because you've trained the immune system to attack muscle tissue where the vaccine was injected... and the heart is .. muscle tissue.

Scary stuff I never got the covid shot I don’t believe in modern medicine god made the body just fine

It is ultimately a pretty bad idea and poor immunology.. but they thought you could make vaccines faster that way, since you just have to change the genetic code as need arises, and the vaccine wouldn't contain any proteins for people to have allergic reactions to.... but people developed allergic reactions anyway so.. yeah.. I'd consider it a failed experiment.

I’ve gotten the flu shot once but never again

well, you're sending genetic instructions to people's bodies for them to produce a protein in their cells
in this case it was to send a code to produce a viral protein hoping to generate an immune response but you could send instructions to program cells to produce all kinds of proteins. You could use mRNA "vaccines" for instance to program cells to produce estrogens or testosterone to "convert" children's genders, you could inject mRNA in soldiers to have them produce enzymes and hormones to make them more aggressive, more muscular, "super soldier' kind of modifications
There's a lot you can do when you can just send genetic instructions to a person's body with a needle.

I’ve always said that vacs can cause
a child to become gay and vacs been used in the past coupled with abuse to make murderers and serial killers

 

[Jamdoc]

No I believe Jesus has all the power and authority from his father and as the scripture says he must put everything down and the last enemy is death

Has he begun to do so? Not yet

It’s says the kingdom has become the kingdom of Christ meaning it was taken away from mystery Babylon this is going to be a glorious day for heaven

See that doesn't fit the text. That Jesus takes away Babylon's rule, then gives it to the beast.
It is 10 Kings of the Earth who give their power to the beast, and Satan gives power and authority to the beast.
They don't have power and authority after Revelation 11:15, and Jesus will rule and reign from that point on for ever and ever.

We are the barley harvest … the barley harvest comes before the wheat harvest

These 144k are the first fruits of the wheat harvest

The grape harvest is in the fall

these testify of resurrections and rapture and gatherings

I don't see that in scripture at all. I see us grafted in to Israel, now we'll never genetically be Abraham's descendants and there are certain promises made to Abraham's descendants. It is however, a shared destiny, we're co-heirs, not whisked away while they're left to suffer, Revelation 12's last verse specifies that the wrath of the dragon is against Christians. What would that mean to you if you didn't insert a pre-trib rapture and force the creation of second class Christians after you're gone?

Scary stuff I never got the covid shot I don’t believe in modern medicine god made the body just fine

Not all bodies are made just fine.. even before modern medicine there are people born with congenital defects. Their body was not made "fine" It was made broken in a broken world.

I’ve gotten the flu shot once but never again

I’ve always said that vacs can cause
a child to become gay and vacs been used in the past coupled with abuse to make murderers and serial killers

Most vaccines are just exposing you to a weakened (or dead) version of the pathogen, and your body mounts an immune response to the proteins on that pathogen recognizing it as a danger.
That's fine.
It's the mRNA based vaccines that send genetic information to your body for it to code viral proteins itself, and put them as "kill me" flags all over their surface for your immune system to mount a response against that is not fine.

Think about police training to shoot guns at a shooting range, and they have pop up targets. Like normally the pictures of those pop up targets are armed robbers pointing guns at the officer who is training. So they're getting the images in their subconscious of the kinds of people they might have to shoot to defend themselves. Okay these targets are all dangerous looking people, they're armed and in a threatening posture.

Now change it to where all the popup targets are women and children, unarmed, and people with their empty hands raised above their head in surrendering gestures. That's kinda what mRNA vaccines are doing, training your body to attack the wrong targets, and the people who designed the vaccine say "well the virus is a guy wearing a red shirt, see all these targets of mothers and children and innocent men surrendering are wearing red shirts, surely the officers will only shoot red shirts and not normal women and children and men surrendering to them"

 

[dfw69]

See that doesn't fit the text. That Jesus takes away Babylon's rule, then gives it to the beast.
It is 10 Kings of the Earth who give their power to the beast, and Satan gives power and authority to the beast.
They don't have power and authority after Revelation 11:15, and Jesus will rule and reign from that point on for ever and ever.

I think it does fit the text

It’s a step by step process of eliminating the enemies of god so that god may become all in all

First act as becoming the king of kings is the opening of the first seal to loose AC to conquer the 10 horns that was ruled by MB

Enemy 1 (MB)….They in turn destroy MB.
There is rejoicing in heaven over their taking back of the kingdoms that was once ruled by MB through the use of thr beast with 10 horns ..so in a sense Jesus gets the credit for the victory though it was the beast with 10 horns that did the task

He’s revealing his military strategies before it even happens …as signs

Enemy2 (satan) …Then the casting out of satan as part of the 3rd woe which is a victory in itself

Enemy 3….Then the rise of the 2nd beast with 2 horns like the lamb but spoke like the dragon to establish the AOD and mark of the beast…
They gathered to to wage a war against the riders from heaven…
They are destroyed and become a feast for the birds

Satan is bound for 1000 years

Then the kingdom of David is reestablished and the millennium begins
Peace on earth heaven on earth

Satan release to seduce the nations one last time… Gog and Magog

Fire from heaven… death upon Gog and Magog

GWT judgement
Death is cast into lake of fire

Heaven comes down

God with men

I don't see that in scripture at all. I see us grafted in to Israel, now we'll never genetically be Abraham's descendants and there are certain promises made to Abraham's descendants. It is however, a shared destiny, we're co-heirs, not whisked away while they're left to suffer,

We are both children of Abraham through Christ adoption.. and we are children of god through Christ adoption

This is how we are grafted into the promises that was once only for Israel

Now both the house of Israel and gentiles may partake in the promises to live with the father …this is the good news

But it is unbelief that prevents one to receive the promise that is only found in Christ

If and when the rapture comes and anyone refuse to believe and repent how then can they enter in?

So those left behind choose to remain on earth Matt 22 Luke 14:15-24

Revelation 12's last verse specifies that the wrath of the dragon is against Christians.

That is because you assume it is Christians but the fact is Christians will already have been long gone by this time and the ones coming to Jesus expecting him to return to reign will be killed off

So these are the 144k Israelites who sigh and cry against the abominations of Jerusalem

What would that mean to you if you didn't insert a pre-trib rapture and force the creation of second class Christians after you're gone?

They are not called to be second class citizens we are all called to become children of god though faith in him

But their zeal for the law blinds them from recieving the truth.. they willfully chose to follow the Old Testament and remain bound like servants and deny the offer of Gods son

If I was told I could become a son of god through Christ or a servant of god through Moses what would i choose?

Which is better?

Well if one decides Christ he is to suffer persecution like Christ did at the hands of enemies

But if one becomes a servant he must endure to the end for the king to come to rule over him and will be judge by him whether he is worthy or not based on his deeds to enter his kingdom

I choose door #1

It's the mRNA based vaccines that send genetic information to your body for it to code viral proteins itself, and put them as "kill me" flags all over their surface for your immune system to mount a response against that is not fine.

Don’t take mRNA gotcha…