What if the Pre-Tribulation . . .

[Jamdoc]

This interpretation is not what the text states.

The elder does ask a rhetorical question. The elder then answers his own question. John is the one not knowing the answer. At least according to how John wrote it.

Where has John been the last 1993 years? The John that was already in Paradise would have known.

John visiting the future from the first century would not have known.

You are right that the elder did explain it I had that aspect wrong
but that wasn't the point, the point was it was a sudden massive group of people in heaven.
not a trickle 1 by 1 as people died
but a sudden group of people happy to be there and holding objects in their hands, I believe they're bodied, that is resurrected.

 

[dfw69]

It is about the second coming... AND our gathering together to Him.

Our gathering is salvation by grace ..Our Passover has come and the blessed hope is to live in heaven with Him , This is the gospel , the good news …That id why He comes in the air and we meet in the air not on earth …We are going up, not down and nothing is mentioned of anything preceding it

His coming for us and this gathering is not his second coming to reign …It is so that we can enter heaven in our newly acquired glorified heavenly bodies

I mean that's Paul linking the rapture to the second coming,

No your missing it … Paul is definitely not linking the 2 events he is only addressing the lies of them that trouble them that the day of the lord has come which puts them in fear of missing the rapture and facing the ac and wrath to come

Paul’s then says that the day of the lord has not come and will not come until 3 things happen… The restrainer is taken out of the way, then the apostates rise against Christ and the man of sin comes sitting in the temple claiming to be God

And he says that wrath falls on them who believe not the truth that is found in Christ and enjoy the pleasures of unrighteousness

as he linked the rapture to the second coming in 1 Thessalonians 4,

Do you not notice He comes for us to meet us in the air and we are going up and not Him coming down to earth? No mention of Him coming down to earth so to assume so is not correct

as he links the resurrection to the second coming (which the resurrection precedes the rapture according to 1 Thessalonians 4) in 1 Corinthians 15

This resurrection is the church only.. The firstborn who get to go to heaven first for believing first and it doesn’t take place in the end

In the end days u have several resurrection and raptures mentioned..

5th seal resurrection
chapter 7 resurrection of tribulation saints
144000 rapture
Those that die in the Lord because they refuse the mark
And the 2 witnesses

So yeah I was just posing multiple views I'd heard of regarding the restrainer, but I think you can see how the restrainer, even if it's the church, can be removed out of the way without it being the rapture. I think the apostasy is the big one, just people walking away, we see it now the "nones" becoming a very prevalent "faith" in the world. If the Church is driven underground it just doesn't have the restraining power it once did.

Perhaps the coming rapture is for a specific purpose …I think so

I just had a thought on Babylon the Great, the 10 kings, etc. Note how in Revelation 17 and 18, it's Babylon that spills the blood of the saints, before the beast even. So maybe that's it. Mystery Babylon the Great, the world government, persecutes the church, drives them underground, and then they can't restrain the rise of antichrist anymore.

Yes mysterious Babylon is responsible for all the worlds troubles trials persecutions and martyrdom. Who she truly is yet to be manifested…

The ac is a savior type to avenge the ways of mystery Babylon

The 2 reasons I think saints are persecuted before Jesus' return rather than pretrib rapture is #1, martyrdom is a massive testimony of faith, it's how the church grew in the first and second centuries, and if we're talking about God bringing the wrath over the whole world like that, God's longsuffering and wants as many saved as possible, so.. it's in a way, pulling out the big guns, the faith of the martyrs causing some holdouts to be convicted and repent while there's still some time, and secondly, to give that casus belli, to give a real good reason to do that level of punishment on the whole world.

If that’s what u think bro pardon me when I say that you don’t know the love of our father for us

I don't see multiple raptures taught anywhere in the old testament or new testament so I don't think Revelation is teaching multiple raptures either,

It’s pretty obvious there are

They didn’t see the death and resurrection of Jesus either and He is our foreshadow for ours

SO.. there's that resurrection, which is tied to the rapture, and then the 2nd resurrection before the white throne of judgement and that resurrects the wicked.

What? Multiple resurrections? No can’t be …lol

Nope.. not where the blood comes from, read Isaiah 63, Jesus explains it Himself.

His stain clothes will mingle with His enemies blood

They announce blessed are those who attend the wedding supper of the lamb.. but the Lamb is not in heaven at that time (or they would worship Him when they worship God on the throne. Compare Revelation 7 where Jesus IS in heaven to Revelation 19, also Revelation 11 after the 7th trumpet, they also only worship God on the throne, because Jesus is on earth at that time), nor is there any scene of feasting, only the announcement...
and then the heavens open.
Then they show the Lamb.
But I believe they're in heaven looking down when the heavens open, not on the earth looking up.
The only feasting done after that announcement... is the birds.

Will see

It doesn't mention armies of heaven, Jesus says He tread the winepress alone, and of the people there were none to help Him.

But we know Jesus comes with the armies of heaven riding on white horses
Rev 19:14

Revelation 17 says that the 10 Kings destroy it, God puts it into their minds. They destroy it in 1 hour with fire... Only one way for men to destroy a great city in 1 hour with fire with current tech

The city itself won’t be destroyed by human hands but by God as He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah

Revelation 7 refers to great tribulation being in the past.
not future.

anything after 6th seal, is not great tribulation

Jesus said the great tribulation starts when the AOD is set up , so it’s safe to say it’s after the 6th seal Matt 24

So something is amiss in your assessment because the AOD is not until Rev chapter 13

The great multitude of martyred saints of every tribe and nation seen in heaven in rev 7 that the angel tells John came out of great tribulation could possibly be referring to another great tribulation taking place before the great tribulation of the AOD that Jesus was referring to..

That the great tribulation that comes from mystery Babylon is prior to the rise of AC and His great tribulation and that could be the reason for the rise of antichrist to seek revenge for the persecuted nations from mystery Babylon

 

[Bobgf]

The great multitude of martyred saints of every tribe and nation seen in heaven in rev 7 that the angel tells John come out of great tribulation could well possibly be referring to another great tribulation taking place before the great tribulation of the AOD that Jesus was referring to

Here's the sequence guys...think about it

1) Rev 20:7-9 Satan deceives the nations numbering as the sand of the sea.

2) Rev 6:12-17 Sixth seal opened, great day of God's wrath has come

3) Act 15:16-17 Christ returns and rebuilds tabernacle of David.

4) Rev 7:3-8 144,000 Israelites raised up and sealed as servants of God

5) John 4:22 Christ ordains that salvation is of the jews

6) Rev 7:14 Those deceived by Satan numbering as the sand of the sea are converted.

7) 1 Cor 15:24 Christ hands over to his Father a kingdom of saints
These saints come out of the great tribulation Christ spoke of in Matt 24:21

Bob..

 

[dfw69]

Here's the sequence guys...think about it

1) Rev 20:7-9 Satan deceives the nations numbering as the sand of the sea.

This is after the 1000 year reign of Jesus
Jesus is still in heaven and will come again and Elijah will come before him to pave the way

2) Rev 6:12-17 Sixth seal opened, great day of God's wrath has come

Yes after the false messianic age and great tribulation against the nations and great tribulations of the AOD of Daniel

3) Act 15:16-17 Christ returns and rebuilds tabernacle of David.

Yes at the end of human government
Rev 19

4) Rev 7:3-8 144,000 Israelites raised up and sealed as servants of God

These 144000 Israelites cry out and sigh against the abominations of Jerusalem Ezek 9:4 and are sealed for protection against the wrath of satan and are caught up to heaven in Rev 14 before the appearance of 3 flying angels

The first preaches the eternal gospel and announces the time of judgement has come

The second announces the power of mystery Babylon has fallen (been broken)

The 3rd warns not to take the mark and worship the beast nor its image or their will experience the wrath of god in the 7 bowls yet to come

5) John 4:22 Christ ordains that salvation is of the jews

The kingdom of David will be established again and Ezek temple erected and it will be like heaven on earth

6) Rev 7:14 Those deceived by Satan numbering as the sand of the sea are converted.

These come out of great tribulation of the false messianic age and are seen in heaven before the trumpet judgements

7) 1 Cor 15:24 Christ hands over to his Father a kingdom of saints
These saints come out of the great tribulation Christ spoke of in Matt 24:21

Bob..

He hands the kingdom after the 1000 year reign

For he must reign till all enemies are put down the last enemy is death itself

 

[Jamdoc]

our gathering is salvation from the grace ..our Passover has come and the blessed hope is to live in heaven with him , this is the gospel good news …that’s why he comes in the air and we meet in the air not on earth …we are going up not down ..and nothing is mentioned of anything preceding it

His coming for us and this gathering is not his second coming to reign …it’s so that we can enter heaven in our newly acquired glorified heavenly bodies



No your missing it … Paul is definitely not linking the 2 events he is only addressing the lies of them that trouble them that the day of the lord has come which puts them in fear of missing the rapture and facing the ac and wrath to come

Paul’s then says that the day of the lord has not come and will not come until 3 things happen… the retrained is taken out of the way the apostates rise against Christ and the man of sin comes sitting in the temple claiming to be god

And says that wrath’s falls on them who believe not the truth that is found in Christ and enjoy the pleasures of unrighteousness



Do you not notice he comes for us to meet us in the air we are going up and not him coming down to earth? No mention of him coming down to earth so to assume so is not correct

This resurrection is the church only.. the firstborn who get to go to heaven first for believing first and it doesn’t take place in the end

In the end days u have several resurrection and raptures ..
5th seal resurrection
7 chapter resurrection of tribulation saints
144000 rapture
Those that die in the lord because they refuse the mark
And the 2 witnesses




Perhaps the coming rapture is for a specific purpose I think so

I think you're forcing in a separation that's not there, and I question why? Is it fear of persecution?

If that’s what u think bro pardon me when I say you don’t know the love of our father for us

God loves His son more, and He sent His son to die on a cross, God ordains for Christians to die as martyrs all the time, it is powerful testimony.
are you going to say the reason why middle eastern Christians who got their heads cut off by ISIS was because God didn't love them as much as He loves first world American Christians who live deliciously and say "I shall see no sorrow"?

Does Jesus not love the Church of Smyrna, letting them be martyred for their witness? This is what Jesus tells them:

Revelation 2

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

He doesn't bail them out of tribulation, He tells them they'll die, but encourages them that they will be rewarded for it.

It’s pretty obvious there are

They didn’t see the death and resurrection of Jesus either and he is our foreshadow for ours


What? Multiple resurrections? No can’t be …lol

There are 2 resurrections in John 5 as well, so it's not only 1 place that 2 resurrections are taught.
But, multiple end time raptures are not taught.

His stain clothes will mingle with his enemies blood

Not what the text says

But we know Jesus comes with the armies of heaven riding on white horses
Rev 19:14

Jesus comes on the clouds, not on a white horse. the imagery of Jesus riding a flying white horse down from heaven is popular.... but in error.
Jesus wasn't in heaven in Revelation 19, He was already on Earth
already covered in the blood of His enemies as shown in Isaiah 63.

The city itself won’t be destroyed by human hands but by god as he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah

The text says the 10 Kings do it after God puts it into their minds. They are carrying out the Lord's judgement.

Jesus said the great tribulation starts when the AOD is set up so it’s safer to say it’s the future Matt 24

I mean it is in the past from the point of view between the 6th and 7th seals.
Great Tribulation in the text would be referring to the first 5 seals at most, from the context of Revelation 7, and comparing Matthew 24:29 with Revelation 6:12-13.

So something is amiss in your assessment because the AOD is not until Rev chapter 13

Revelation is not in Chronological order. Chapter 12 starts over with the birth of Jesus, it is not taking place after the 7th trumpet.
Revelation 13, is parallel to what is going on during the 5th seal.
In Revelation 7 the saints came out of Great Tribulation
In Revelation 15 the saints overcame the beast and his image.

It's different details of the same time periods.

The great multitude of martyred saints of every tribe and nation seen in heaven in rev 7 that the angel tells John come out of great tribulation could well possibly be referring to another great tribulation taking place before the great tribulation of the AOD that Jesus was referring to

That prior great tribulation comes from mystery Babylon and that could be the reason for the rise of antichrist to seek revenge for the persecuted nations against mystery Babylon

Nah, consider the book itself, and read it and question.. does it make sense with Revelation 11:15-19... if Revelation 13:2 comes after it Chronologically?

Once you understand that Revelation is not totally in Chronological order, a lot of those errors will start going away.

 

[dfw69]

I think you're forcing in a separation that's not there, and I question why? Is it fear of persecution?

You really don’t know why I believe what I believe?

Because the scripture says so ..there is no other reason to believe in something

If the scriptures proved that the pre trib rapture was a lie or false I’ll be the first to admit it and change my views

But I hear all the so called evidence against the rapture or so called proofs and I seriously find all their arguments weak and lacking truth and faith in the good news

So no I’m not forcing the separation… the separation is evidence of a pre trib rapture and if others can’t see it for whatever reason … what can I say ? It is what it is…

We are in tribulation even now … just in a few years alone we have had covid deaths the threat of ww3 plus food contaminations water contaminations gmo weather manipulation earthquakes flooding severe weather fires ressession child abductions poverty tsunamis 2 world wars the holocaust the stealing back of Arab bought lands for Zionism
Police brutality homelessness the list goes on and on …we are lambs for the slaughter we are slaves to the powers of this world

will it escalate even more ? Yes scriptures say the night comes when preaching is not allowed and he comes like a thief in the night … the night comes before the day

But our night is coming to an end soon for our day is quickly approaching….

 

[dfw69]

God loves His son more, and He sent His son to die on a cross,

To redeem man ..to show his love for mankind .. to save us from sins … to pay the death penalty of the law … to save us .. to set us free… to make us children of god… to give us eternal life … to make a way to live with the father, to glorify us .. to give us his inheritance his righteousness to give us perfect bodies to give us his spirit and so on …

God ordains for Christians to die as martyrs all the time, it is powerful testimony.

It is not gods will that we are martyrs… if our enemies would not follow satan we would live in peace but satan has the hearts of the wicked and unjust and they choose to obey his will so they persecute us …

Though we testify of his love they hate us for that … god sends us in imperfect and corrupt bodies to seek to save the lost but our enemies refused to be saved

Gods will is love and peace but his enemies refuse that is why their is tribulation because of satan not god

 

[Jamdoc]

You really don’t know why I believe what I believe?

Because the scripture says so ..there is no other reason to believe in something

But the scripture doesn't say pretrib rapture. the scripture says there's a resurrection and rapture at the second coming. It says it over and over and over... and when verses like Matthew 24:29-31 depict the rapture, pretribulationists say "No that's not about the rapture because WE KNOW the rapture comes before the tribulation". They inject an assumption throughout the bible and reject passages that don't fit their assumption.

If the scriptures proved that the pre trib rapture was a lie or false I’ll be the first to admit it and change my views

No pretribulationist does this, even when scripture is shown to them that they're wrong. They deflect, and claim "that's not about the rapture, because WE KNOW the rapture is before the tribulation" I've heard it parroted so many times it's mind boggling.

But I hear all the so called evidence against the rapture or so called proofs and I seriously find all their arguments weak and lacking truth and faith in the good news

So no I’m not forcing the separation… the separation is evidence of a pre trib rapture and if others can’t see it for whatever reason … what can I say ? It is what it is…

We are in tribulation even now … just in a few years alone we have had covid deaths the threat of ww3 plus food contaminations water contaminations gmo weather manipulation earthquakes flooding severe weather fires ressession child abductions poverty tsunamis 2 world wars the holocaust the stealing back of Arab bought lands for Zionism
Police brutality homelessness the list goes on and on …we are lambs for the slaughter we are slaves to the powers of this world

will it escalate even more ? Yes scriptures say the night comes when preaching is not allowed and he comes like a thief in the night … the night comes before the day

But our night is coming to an end soon for our day is quickly approaching….

Well tribulation doesn't mean "bad thing that happens"
Tribulation as Jesus referred to it, is specific to persecution.

Noah's flood killed everyone on the planet except 8 people.
There will be more survivors of the 70th week than that.

So in order for the great tribulation to be worse than anything before it, tribulation is not referring just to anything bad happening or natural disasters.

any time tribulation is referred to in the bible, it's to refer to persecution by other people, including war against Israel by heathen.

so a pandemic is not tribulation, unless the pandemic is man created, and deliberately released in order to eliminate a specific group of people.

 

[Jamdoc]

To redeem man ..to show his love for mankind .. to save us from sins … to pay the death penalty of the law … to save us .. to set us free… to make us children of god… to give us eternal life … to make a way to live with the father, to glorify us .. to give us his inheritance his righteousness to give us perfect bodies to give us his spirit and so on …




It is not gods will that we are martyrs… if our enemies would not follow satan we would live in peace but satan has the hearts of the wicked and unjust and they choose to obey his will so they persecute us …

Though we testify of his love they hate us for that … god sends us in imperfect and corrupt bodies to seek to save the lost but our enemies refused to be saved

Gods will is love and peace but his enemies refuse that is why their is tribulation because of satan not god

It is God's will that there are martyrs, or there would be no martyrs.

In Revelation 13 it is GIVEN to the beast to be able to make war with the saints.
the saints are given into the hand of the antichrist to persecute and martyr

 

[dfw69]

are you going to say the reason why middle eastern Christians who got their heads cut off by ISIS was because God didn't love them as much as He loves first world American Christians who live deliciously and say "I shall see no sorrow"?

Your not making sense

Of course god loves his children but we don’t need to die or go through tribulations to prove our love for him ..that’s ridiculous…god does not need proof otherwise the gift would not be gift but earned through death and persecution and tribulation

If your referring to me and American Christians by quoting the mystery Babylon harlot scripture … Americans do not live deliciously we are in slavery and face the trials and tribulations daily and just because many Americans believe in a pre trib rapture you think the scripture refers to us that “we shall see no sorrow” …

Your wrong in your judgment

There are 2 resurrections in John 5 as well, so it's not only 1 place that 2 resurrections are taught.
But, multiple end time raptures are not taught.

I just did…it only makes sense that there are multiple resurrections in Revelation

Jesus comes on the clouds, not on a white horse. the imagery of Jesus riding a flying white horse down from heaven is popular.... but in error.
Jesus wasn't in heaven in Revelation 19, He was already on Earth
already covered in the blood of His enemies as shown in Isaiah 63.

rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, whiteand clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

John in heaven saw heaven standing open and there in heaven before him he see Jesus on a white horse with the armies of heaven following him … it’s clear

Then John sees on earth the ac and the kings of the earth gathered together to fight against the rider and his armies from heaven … they lose and the slain make up the feast for the birds

2 gatherings seen by John one in heaven one on earth … notice the armies of heaven are still in white and clean clothes… after the battle they too will be stained

The text says the 10 Kings do it after God puts it into their minds. They are carrying out the Lord's judgement.

On mystery Babylon adherents… see they eat her flesh (human) and kill by fire.. burn her

But the city itself is destroyed by god …
Notice all the things that “will be heard no more at all in thee”

I mean it is in the past from the point of view between the 6th and 7th seals.
Great Tribulation in the text would be referring to the first 5 seals at most, from the context of Revelation 7, and comparing Matthew 24:29 with Revelation 6:12-13.

It’s not in the past …

Revelation is not in Chronological order.

This is why so many fail to understand the end times and Revelation

Chapter 12 starts over with the birth of Jesus, it is not taking place after the 7th trumpet.

This is why you err… the manchild is not the birth of Jesus …it’s the 144,000

Jesus was killed and it was not by a flood from satan which is prophetic talk for armies ….the manchild will be caught up not killed by the flood …as proof in rev 14

Revelation 13, is parallel to what is going on during the 5th seal.

Nope you shouldn’t do that ..

In Revelation 7 the saints came out of Great Tribulation
In Revelation 15 the saints overcame the beast and his image.

First tribulation described in rev

rev 7 is those from every kingdom tribe nations and languages who were slaughtered by mystery Babylon for the word of god and testimony they held …

if you think Americans are mystery Babylon then are you saying Americans are gonna kill in every land on earth every tongue every Judean tribe and kingdom and nation all over the entire world because they love Jesus and keep his commandments and not deny his name?

Remember They are killed for the word of god and testimony they hold….

2nd tribulation described in rev 15

Nah, consider the book itself, and read it and question.. does it make sense with Revelation 11:15-19... if Revelation 13:2 comes after it Chronologically?

Don’t be so sure my friend… let’s take a look…. The announcement of rev 11:15-19 seems that heavenly beings are proclaiming a victory …so what could it be … oh I see it now … do you see it? …I’ll give you a chance to answer … before I do

Once you understand that Revelation is not totally in Chronological order, a lot of those errors will start going away.

It most definitely is to a degree …with some summaries put in here and there to clarify…

If you doubt the chronology you get all manor of false interpretations

 

[dfw69]

It is God's will that there are martyrs, or there would be no martyrs.

In Revelation 13 it is GIVEN to the beast to be able to make war with the saints.
the saints are given into the hand of the antichrist to persecute and martyr

I would not glorify god by saying it’s God will for martyrs … They exist because evil men exist …Did evil come from god? You will say god created satan ? To fall ? U judge such things that is too deep for me to even care…


My point is that we don’t have to prove our loyalty through death trials tribulations and persecution as a great testament of our love for him .. you seem to think so

My son does not have to die to prove his love to me ..any father who loves his child understands that truth …nor would I require such an act for him to prove his love for me

My father knows I love him and I know he loves me because he sent his son to die for me that I may have eternal life with him …

And if the enemy comes for me because he hates me , my father will still love me and I know it’s not his will for me to suffer for him, that’s not how it works…

Suffering comes from satan minions who hate the father and hate the son and made a pact with death and satan and they are coming out of hiding soon with no fear of god nor his son nor judgment because they do not believe in the truth but believe the truth is a lie

And if they believe it’s a lie what’s to fear? Hell? doesn’t exist
Jesus? Does not exist
The new covenant? Does not exist
Revelation? Not true
Paul? Did not exist
Satan? Does not exist

So with nothing to fear the world is their stage to do whatever they desire

And if anything stands in their way.. evil is good and good evil they say in their hearts

Maybe these men really don’t believe in god and use religion to fool the masses but in reality it’s wickedness and self gratification that they truly worship …

honestly ..who knows why martyrs happen but it’s not gods will

 

[dfw69]

But the scripture doesn't say pretrib rapture. the scripture says there's a resurrection and rapture at the second coming.

No it doesn’t say at his second coming it says at his coming for us in the air at an appointed time

If you study the descriptions of both events seriously you will see that the are not taking place together and that there is no mentioning of events happening together

End time Jesus comes down with the clouds that were taken away before ..on a white horse with armies from heaven with the angels they battle the armies of earth and gather the tares up and tread the winepress and send his angels to gather the scattered sheep of the house of israel

But pretrib Jesus comes in the air blows 2 trumpets resurrecting the dead in Christ and transforming the living in Christ and we go up to meet him in the sky to go to the fathers house in heaven for he made a way to the father by adopting us and giving us his righteousness and an inheritance to give us heavenly bodies to be able to live and embrace the father … for the spirit gives birth to spiritual beings .. you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless your born again of the spirit …

It says it over and over and over... and when verses like Matthew 24:29-31 depict the rapture, pretribulationists say "No that's not about the rapture because WE KNOW the rapture comes before the tribulation". They inject an assumption throughout the bible and reject passages that don't fit their assumption.

I have made my argument

The elect in Matt 24:29-31 is not the church but the scattered of Israel … remember he was talking to the Jews when he told them this and he just mentioned the AOD in the temple and fleeing to the mountains

No pretribulationist does this, even when scripture is shown to them that they're wrong. They deflect, and claim "that's not about the rapture, because WE KNOW the rapture is before the tribulation" I've heard it parroted so many times it's mind boggling.

I’m sorry but I feel I’ve made strong arguments and if you still do not see it … what can I say .. I see it and many others do too so I’m not alone

Noah's flood killed everyone on the planet except 8 people.
There will be more survivors of the 70th week than that.

Yes

so a pandemic is not tribulation, unless the pandemic is man created, and deliberately released in order to eliminate a specific group of people.

Was not this last pandemic not created by man? Bill gates just announced not long ago that another pandemic is gonna happen in just 2 years so….

 

[Lost Witness]

honestly ..who knows why martyrs happen but it’s not gods will

John 12:24 - here's a reason

 

[dfw69]

No pretribulationist does this, even when scripture is shown to them that they're wrong. They deflect, and claim "that's not about the rapture, because WE KNOW the rapture is before the tribulation" I've heard it parroted so many times it's mind boggling.

Jamdoc have you heard my pretrib rapture theory before? Have I shared it with you? If not I’d like to get your feedback on the matter


I believe the rapture could possibly happen in 2029

There is a count up to penticost called counting of the Omer

And Jesus ascension was on the 40th day of that count down well it’s a count up

He is our foreshadowing for our ascension

The body of Christ ascended on the 40th day and we are called the body of Christ

I believe that Jesus is revealed that 40 jubilees from the first jubilee the rapture takes place


Jesus started the first jubilee on the 29th ad

40x50 is 2000 year

Plus 29 ad is 2029 that’s 40 jubilees from the start of his ministry

What you think ?

 

[dfw69]

John 12:24 - here's a reason

Referring to Jesus

 

[Timtofly]

You are right that the elder did explain it I had that aspect wrong
but that wasn't the point, the point was it was a sudden massive group of people in heaven.
not a trickle 1 by 1 as people died
but a sudden group of people happy to be there and holding objects in their hands, I believe they're bodied, that is resurrected.

If they all die in a seven year period, it is still "trickle 1 by 1". That argument does not make sense.

These people are not held in confinement and then killed all at the same time, by Satan.

It states they are serving in the temple day and night. Not that they will start serving.

The only large group that showed up suddenly at one time was the entire OT after being removed from Abraham's bosom into Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They did not come out of great tribulation. They came out of Abraham's bosom. Yes, even many of them trickled 1 by 1 into Abraham's bosom out of great tribulation over thousands of years. But they are all the same people John sees in the heavenly setting.

Suddenly is not what is stated. It does not say they suddenly appeared. They were serving God day and night in His Temple. Not all of them suffered tribulation. Not all of them were martyred. This is not about timing. It is about the entire church body existing in Paradise and serving God. This is an example of suddenly:

"And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven."

Even then the angels were not that far away, but could show up suddenly right above the shepherds. This group in Revelation 7 did not just come together for John's benefit in the near relation to a time of trouble. John was just himself viewing this group suddenly after seeing what happened on earth with the angel who sealed the 144k. If suddenly was intended at all.

 

[Jamdoc]

If they all die in a seven year period, it is still "trickle 1 by 1". That argument does not make sense.

These people are not held in confinement and then killed all at the same time, by Satan.

It states they are serving in the temple day and night. Not that they will start serving.

The only large group that showed up suddenly at one time was the entire OT after being removed from Abraham's bosom into Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They did not come out of great tribulation. They came out of Abraham's bosom. Yes, even many of them trickled 1 by 1 into Abraham's bosom out of great tribulation over thousands of years. But they are all the same people John sees in the heavenly setting.

Suddenly is not what is stated. It does not say they suddenly appeared. They were serving God day and night in His Temple. Not all of them suffered tribulation. Not all of them were martyred. This is not about timing. It is about the entire church body existing in Paradise and serving God. This is an example of suddenly:

"And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven."

Even then the angels were not that far away, but could show up suddenly right above the shepherds. This group in Revelation 7 did not just come together for John's benefit in the near relation to a time of trouble. John was just himself viewing this group suddenly after seeing what happened on earth with the angel who sealed the 144k. If suddenly was intended at all.

I'm not the one suggesting they died, or are dead spirits in heaven.

I'm saying this is the result of the resurrection and rapture, that these are bodied people and they all came to heaven, in bodies, at once.

 

[Jamdoc]

Your not making sense

Of course god loves his children but we don’t need to die or go through tribulations to prove our love for him ..that’s ridiculous…god does not need proof otherwise the gift would not be gift but earned through death and persecution and tribulation

If your referring to me and American Christians by quoting the mystery Babylon harlot scripture … Americans do not live deliciously we are in slavery and face the trials and tribulations daily and just because many Americans believe in a pre trib rapture you think the scripture refers to us that “we shall see no sorrow” …

Your wrong in your judgment

It's American Christians that most purport the pretribulation rapture, that hold the notion that "God loves us too much to let us go through persecution!"

It's not about God proving love for us, it's about the idea that "God won't give us over to persecution because He loves us too much" is ridiculous. It's just not biblical. On the contrary saints are given over to tribulation so that they can be martyrs, which means "witnesses" which is for their testimony, it's not about God proving His love for us it's about our proving our love for God to the world that does not believe. On the contrary Jesus encourages people going through tribulation with rewards and promises, promises to avenge them (that is what the wrath of God is after all, avenging the saints that were martyred)

I just did…it only makes sense that there are multiple resurrections in Revelation

2 witnesses establish the truth, where's the other witness to any idea of multiple raptures at the end of the age?

rev 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, whiteand clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

John in heaven saw heaven standing open and there in heaven before him he see Jesus on a white horse with the armies of heaven following him … it’s clear

John was in heaven, yes, the heaven standing open means He was looking down on the Earth from heaven, not on Earth looking up into heaven.

They talk about the lamb, but they don't worship Him in heaven because He's not there.
In Revelation 7 they specify God on the throne, AND the Lamb.
Not in Revelation 19, just God on the Throne. The Lamb is on Earth.

On mystery Babylon adherents… see they eat her flesh (human) and kill by fire.. burn her

The "her" is the city, that's Revelation 17

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

When they "burn her with fire" they are referring to destroying the city with fire. In Revelation 17 it's shown symbolically, in Revelation 18, it's described what actually happens to the city.

For some reason people think God wouldn't let people nuke a city to destroy it, no idea why, Hiroshima and Nagasaki got destroyed by fire in an hour or less. The bible says the 10 Kings do it carrying out the will of God, that's the means 10 Kings have to do it, but people think God wouldn't let a nuclear weapon get used, and therefore God must destroy it Himself because it's impossible for men to destroy a city in an hour.... except it's not, you just have to not place rules on what you think God will let man in his wickedness do when they have the means.

But the city itself is destroyed by god …
Notice all the things that “will be heard no more at all in thee”

It's destroyed by 10 Kings after God puts it into their mind. That's Revelation 17.

It’s not in the past …

Not from OUR past. From the past of the people in Revelation 7. That's what the text says. That the saints came out of great tribulation, it's over by the 6th seal.

This is why so many fail to understand the end times and Revelation

This is why you err… the manchild is not the birth of Jesus …it’s the 144,000

Jesus was the one caught up to heaven and God's throne., the man child is Jesus.

First tribulation described in rev

rev 7 is those from every kingdom tribe nations and languages who were slaughtered by mystery Babylon for the word of god and testimony they held …

if you think Americans are mystery Babylon then are you saying Americans are gonna kill in every land on earth every tongue every Judean tribe and kingdom and nation all over the entire world because they love Jesus and keep his commandments and not deny his name?

Babylon is a global government. It's the city that reigns over the kings of the Earth, but it's not limited to just that city. Babylon itself I don't think is located in America but I do think what's left of America after the 4th seal will be ruled by Babylon, and so, America is part of Babylon.

Remember They are killed for the word of god and testimony they hold….

2nd tribulation described in rev 15

It's the same period of time, it's repeated with different details. There's not 2 groups of 144k, Jesus doesn't appear on the clouds twice, and 2 raptures and 2 final wraths of God. and 2 establishments of Christ's Kingdom on Earth.

Don’t be so sure my friend… let’s take a look…. The announcement of rev 11:15-19 seems that heavenly beings are proclaiming a victory …so what could it be … oh I see it now … do you see it? …I’ll give you a chance to answer … before I do

the verbage is "are become" as in this is happening now, and remember Revelation 10:7, the 7th trumpet is the full revealing of the mystery of God. It's done, that's it, that's the end.

It's not "well, now let's put Antichrist in charge"

 

[Jamdoc]

No it doesn’t say at his second coming it says at his coming for us in the air at an appointed time

If you study the descriptions of both events seriously you will see that the are not taking place together and that there is no mentioning of events happening together

End time Jesus comes down with the clouds that were taken away before ..on a white horse with armies from heaven with the angels they battle the armies of earth and gather the tares up and tread the winepress and send his angels to gather the scattered sheep of the house of israel

But pretrib Jesus comes in the air blows 2 trumpets resurrecting the dead in Christ and transforming the living in Christ and we go up to meet him in the sky to go to the fathers house in heaven for he made a way to the father by adopting us and giving us his righteousness and an inheritance to give us heavenly bodies to be able to live and embrace the father … for the spirit gives birth to spiritual beings .. you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven unless your born again of the spirit …





I have made my argument

The elect in Matt 24:29-31 is not the church but the scattered of Israel … remember he was talking to the Jews when he told them this and he just mentioned the AOD in the temple and fleeing to the mountains

The audience of the Olivet Discourse were the men who founded the Church, not unbelieving Pharisees.

I’m sorry but I feel I’ve made strong arguments and if you still do not see it … what can I say .. I see it and many others do too so I’m not alone




Yes

Was not this last pandemic not created by man? Bill gates just announced not long ago that another pandemic is gonna happen in just 2 years so….

as far as we know the pandemic was created by men to study potential pandemic pathogens and leaked accidentally. It wasn't used deliberately as far as we know.

 

[dfw69]

The audience of the Olivet Discourse were the men who founded the Church, not unbelieving Pharisees.

Paul founded the gentile churches

The disciples sought out to save Jews and lost sheep of Israel warning them of the coming dangers and imparting the knowledge they knew and were equipped first with the anointing of the Holy Spirit for the task for signs

But Matt 24 and Matt 25 Jesus reveals the end time signs to them pertaining to the kingdom they ask 3 questions
They wanted to know when the temple would be destroyed in the near future
They wanted to know the signs of his coming to establish the kingdom of Israel and they wanted to the signs of the end of the age … they didn’t know about the rapture until the last supper

as far as we know the pandemic was created by men to study potential pandemic pathogens and leaked accidentally. It wasn't used deliberately as far as we know.

And the vaccines? What’s the true purpose of that ?