Where? Paul does not mix the 2 events and calls it that day
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, "that day shall not come"
He never made a break, after linking the gathering to the 2nd coming.
So they're still linked.
You read into the text a break that Paul did not write.
Maybe but no mention of him restrain anything either
But the link is there. Daniel 12, and Revelation 12. Michael stands up. Meaning previously he was sitting down, as to what that sitting down all entailed.. not really sure. Revelation 12, he goes to war with Satan, and casts him out of heaven, and that's what even starts the 70th week and the persecution. Whether he's the restrainer or not, Michael definitely plays an Eschatalogical role.
True but again scripture says nothing about that
It is speculation, and a theory, not one I really subscribe to, but it does fit the mold to a degree. But because scripture doesn't state it, I don't pose it as truth, only speculation.
I believe scripture does mention both of these restraining
To some degree yes. But the idea that the Holy Spirit is "removed" at the rapture and then there's tribulation saints getting saved is nonsense. However now it comes to memory that 2020 was ... quite an example of how the church can be "removed" and lose its power to restrain.... while still being on Earth. Churches closed their doors, Churches got fined and shut down by the government, pastors got arrested, Persecution can remove the church out of the way.... while believers are still on Earth. Not to mention the apostasy Paul mentioned, the falling away. The Church is simply losing more and more influence to be able to restrain in this world.
In Europe? It's practically gone
In China, which supposedly has the most "Christians" in the world? it doesn't exist, the government treads over them and changes their bible, and regulates their worship.
In Russia the Orthodox Church there has become a Church of Novorossia, rather than a Church of Jesus Christ. It has been used to justify the war in Ukraine.. not much restraining of evil is it?
and America? Can you really say the church is restraining evil here anymore?
So no rapture necessary to weaken the church and have it lose the power to restrain, simply by persecuting, marginalizing, and apostasy.
Well I agree that the holy spirit is not taken out of the way but by process of elimination that leaves the church because we know they are at the very least resurrected and transformed literally into the children of god to possess heavenly bodies and go up as far as meeting Jesus in the sky …. If we come back down with him that same day why then transform us into godlike creatures?
Do we live on earth with heavenly bodies and wait for 1000 years with him until the heavenly city comes down? I don’t see the point in that nor do I see that event described in scripture
I think you confuse me with the more traditional Revelation 19 post trib "rapture" people, which is not a rapture to heaven. I disagree with those people.
I believe in a rapture, after the 6th seal and Revelation 7. Meaning that the saints are not present for the trumpets, and a second view of the rapture is shown in Revelation 14 and 15, the saints are not present during the bowls.
Revelation 19 is clear that there are people in heaven before the heavens open up.
My view is pre wrath. The trumpets and the bowls, are the wrath of God. Revelation 6:17, and Revelation 15:1 and 15:7 are crystal clear about this.
Tribulation is not the wrath of God. tribulation, is persecution by men. God does not keep us from persecution, and never really has. Jesus promised we'd have persecution. That's to be expected.
God has promised to avenge us when we are persecuted, and encourages us with reward for going through persecution.
as for the Millennnium, we do come back down to Earth for the wedding supper of the Lamb, the supper of the Great God, as described in Revelation 19.
What I have is, 6th seal, rapture, saints in heaven, 7th seal, Jesus goes down to Earth alone (hence the silence in heaven, because Jesus leaves, they had just been praising Him, now He leaves), Jesus treads the winepress of His wrath alone (as Isaiah 63 is specific about), and then returns from Edom, and then the saints, such as Isaiah, rejoin Him on Earth for His final glorious victory, and establishes the Millennial Kingdom.
Yes but just because Moses and Elijah was seen standing next to him does not necessarily tell that they are the ones
Not saying your wrong but you could be
Possibly.. but it all clicked when I was led to these places and made these connections.
I still believe they are Enoch and Elijah Elijah for sure because he foretold to come and even the Jews await him to usher in the messianic age
In Enoch case he was taken as well like Elijah and has not died
Both are destined to die being the last of the saints to perish at the hands of enemies of god
Correct, and I had thought Enoch myself.. until making the connection between Zechariah 4 and the Mount of Transfiguration. It's funny many of my "aha" moments in bible study have been when I just let the bible say what it said and not tried to make my own leaps of logic. If the bible gives something as a symbol and explains it, then it's a symbol and I accept the explanation that God, or the Angel sent by God gives to explain the symbol, or if it's a reference to a previous symbol.
But where many people have tried to logic their way to explain things as symbols, the bible ... doesn't give that thing as a symbol, or it's not a reference to a symbol elsewhere in the bible.. so sometimes the plain "it's right in front of you" meaning is right.
Zechariah 4 has God questioning why Zechariah doesn't understand the symbols, but then God explains them, and He gives very plain and simple explanations.
There's a few times I have just.. openly laughed when I saw how simple the bible was on a particular thing.. and Moses and Elijah standing next to the Lord of the Whole Earth just like Zechariah 4 was one of them. It just seemed so obvious and simple. Like I didn't have to reason or logic my way to the conclusion.. I just... read what the bible said.. and believed it.
Revelation 19 was another one.. when I realized what the 'wedding supper of the lamb' actually was.
The bride was prepared in heaven, and they go to meet the bridegroom on the earth when the heavens open up (remember John was in heaven, not on earth when the heavens opened up), and then there's the description of the "supper of the great God".. and it's.. for the birds.
People think it's this fancy 7 year long wedding party in heaven.. but they miss that the reference to it takes place after the destruction of Babylon by the 10 Kings which is after the 7th vial. So this is literally right at the very end of everything just before the Millennial Kingdom.. not a 7 year feast. But it's the carrion feeders feeding on the corpses of the wicked that persecuted the saints, and the victory of Christ over the Beast.
We are all called to shine our lights as candlesticks that a candlestick can represent an individual luke 8:16-17
but Revelation says that candlesticks represent Churches. Most notably. 2 Churches that receive letters are not rebuked by Jesus. Smyrna, and Philadelphia. A persecuted church and a church that is able to keep their doors open even during persecution by the synagogue of Satan.
rev11 says the 2 witnesses prophecy for 1260 days during the trampling of Jerusalem by the gentiles for 42 months at the end of that they are killed and raptured with no mentioning of others being raptured …Your timing is off they are resurrected at the end not the beginning
there's 2 halves of 1260 days.
the earthquakes? there is no mentioning of earthquakes taking place in Paul’s version on the rapture only 2 trumpets sound and the appearance of Jesus in the
Sky alone with no angels mentioned like in his second coming
Read 1 Thessalonians 4 again, there's angels.
the Earthquake is part of the Day of the Lord.
it was previewed during the crucifixion. Earthquake, darkening of the sun and moon.
and the Day of the Lord is often announced with an Earthquake.
There will be several earthquakes in the last days
True but only one involving a resurrection and rapture.
scripture does not prove a rapture that Paul describes happening during the tribulation nor the wrath outpouring nor when Jesus return to reign
Matthew 24:29-31 disagrees. After the tribulation of those days, and Jesus comes WITH wrath, like the wrath of God comes after Jesus comes down. Read Psalm 18
Read Isaiah 26:16-21
Read Zechariah 9:14-16
You have a time of trouble and persecution.. then the Lord delivering His people, with the resurrection, and then unleashing the wrath of God. In Isaiah 26, Isaiah, resurrected, beckons people to hide from the Indignation with him (I believe in heaven)
Jesus doesn't come at the end of wrath, He comes at the beginning of the wrath of God, but at the end of tribulation.
Knowing the difference between those 2 things.. is key.
What gives u that idea?
No reason to believe that but then who is the rider on the white horse conquering but the ac?
What’s is the first 4 seals iyo?
just comparing patterns of things that have happened/are happening. It's speculation, but who ever heard of the World Economic Forum prior to 2020, or "the Great Reset", why did almost every country on the world lock down in lock step, with very few exceptions, why are we now in the process of an international WHO treaty that will rip sovereignty from 190+ countries? WW3 has already started (it just hasn't officially gone to NATO vs Russia directly yet), and peace seems to have been taken from the world, civil unrest everywhere, riots all over the world, governments collapsing, governments unable to form and keep disbanding... and .. now banks are folding, economic collapse, and we're already entering famine in Africa and the Middle East. Throw a western bank system collapse into that.
all that'd be left is NATO and Russia, which are.. "beasts of the Earth" if you remember that in Daniel and Revelation, beasts represent kingdoms/empires.. to go head to head.
Think that might kill 2 billion people if they do? I think it possible anyway.
it is speculation, but it would fit.
If you go to Revelation 17, you see that the harlot rides the beast at first (controls the beast).. and between Daniel 7 and Revelation 7 you see first you have Babylon the Great.. a world government system, and there are 10 kings in it. Those 10 kings later give their power to the beast, and then they destroy Babylon at the end.
IMO, the first 4 seals, are manufactured polycrisis in order to create a one world government.
The more traditional teaching of Antichrist being first seal, then after Antichrist conquers the world you have world war, famine and death.... doesn't pan out, who would follow the Antichrist if ever since he came in, the world has been melting down with polycrisis.
But if you have manufactured polycrisis.. and then a group of people offers a solution to that polycrisis, people will ask them to save them and rule them, if it solves the polycrisis. They can then give their power to the beast.
So first 4 seals basically destroy the current world order.
It's replaced by what Revelation 17 calls the great harlot, a world government. Under that world government, "peace and security" is declared. Things seem like they're going back to normal, oh.. except people who don't accept this new world order, they obviously have to be rounded up and reeducated or killed when they can't be reeducated, and refuse to worship the leader.
See.. the Narrative of the bible on the subject teaches that the world will be saying peace and safety, and it'll be like the days of noah and the days of lot, normal living for the world, day to day living. People don't build houses and plant crops and plan weddings when the water's turning to blood and meteors are impacting the Earth and there's 100 pound hail falling from the sky
but also, it is commonly in scripture that the Lord delivers His people from a time of trouble and persecution.
How do you have both simultaneously?
Well
The trouble being persecution is how.
For the world, it will be like normal life going on, for Christians and Jews.. it will be great tribulation.
Think about 1930's Germany, before WW2 started. The Jews were persecuted, but for non Jewish Germans.. they were in economic recovery, there was civic pride, they hosted an Olympic Games.
That is a picture of the great tribulation. God's people under persecution... and the world .. living normal lives.
But again you shown no proof the return is happening at the 6th seal only the beginning of the wrath is happening which introduces the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls which is the wrath ending with the 2nd coming
Compare Matthew 24:29-31, to Revelation 6:12-17 and Revelation 7.
You have the same signs, followed by evidence of the rapture, the saints in heaven, and they are said to have come OUT of Great Tribulation, meaning it was in the past. The signs of the 6th seal ALSO happen immediately after the tribulation.
so the great tribulation is already over by the 6th seal.
The 5th seal is the revealing of saints that have been killed for believing in Christ throughout the false messianic age and they are seen under the alter in heaven not sure if they are resurrected at this time but they are given white robes with suggest they are resurrected… they want god to judge them that killed them and seeking god to avenge them so the wrath has not happened to this point
Correct, the wrath of God does not begin until after the 6th seal, and the great tribulation Jesus talked about.. is over by the time of the 6th seal. See how there's a separation between tribulation and the wrath of God?
could be the reason for the deaths of those in the 5th seal
Well I believe the 4th seal is actually a nuclear or biological world war. It's basically the only way men could kill 1/4 of the planet in one act like that. I lean towards nuclear as the fallout would also result in mass starvation, a relatively limited exchange. World War 1 and 2 didn't kill nearly anything close to 1/4 of the world's population, even with the flu pandemic on top of world war 1 it wasn't close, and specifically the 4 horsement.. are acts by men. God stops restraining them, but men carry them out.
the 5th seal they are specifically martyred.. so I don't think it's anything to do with the 4th seal.. unless.. because Russia and the US and western Europe are considered "Judeo-Christian" countries by the rest of the world, if that takes the blame for the world war? Maybe. Speculation.
But I believe it’s not we won’t see those days until Babylon is formed and destroyed ..the false messianic age does it’s evil upon the earth and is judge for doing so
It would only be to create the false messianic age not the second coming
Well, yeah, antichrist comes as a savior. that's why he's antichrist, anti means "in place of".
That's why I believe that you have a polycrisis (the 4 horsemen) that launch him to power.
So he can "fix" the polycrisis, and be considered the savior of the world, enter the false messianic age.
They seeing the signs mentioned in rev 6 taking place knowing the wrath is about to be poured out so they hide nothing about him coming in the clouds and comes to earth at the 6th seal
See during the false messianic age the ones executing the saints who still believe are being told that wrath is coming and when it occurs the world will know that it has come
They won't believe it without seeing it, that's kind of the point.
Yes when the mark is implemented the announcement of the wrath of god in the 7 bowls is poured upon those with the mark … but the 7 seals and 7 trumpets have already taken place as part of the beginning of gods wrath
No, not unless you believe that Jesus' first act as King of the Earth after Revelation 11:15 is to give dominion back to Satan for him to give to the beast. Revelation 10:7 also says the 7th trumpet is the last event, and the 7th trumpet has finality to it.
... and Revelation 12 starts over with the birth of Jesus.
It's 2 parallel narratives, there's a lot of repetition between them, such as the 144k, and Jesus on the clouds twice.
2 parallel patterns of tribulation -> Jesus on the clouds -> saints in heaven -> wrath of God -> Jesus establishing His Kingdom.
It goes in the same order both times.
