What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

[Douggg]

At the sudden and shocking high intensity flash from the sun, Isaiah 30:26a

1 Thess 5:9-11, tells us that the Lord will protect His faithful people, through the time of His fiery wrath.

How would a sudden high intensity flash from the sun - have any effect on the dead?

1Thessalonians5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[DavidPT]

I have no idea how people come to the mid tribulation viewpoint, the exact midpoint that is.

What they should label it is mid 70th week not mid tribulation. But even then it is still Pretrib the fact the great trib begins mid 70th week. That assuming the entire 70th week is still future. The first half of the 70th week is not great tribulation, only the 2nd half is. Since great tribulation is 42 months rather than 84 months, unless one can't even do simple math, mid 42 months is obviously not 42 months, it is 21 months. No one that I have ever encountered thinks there can be a rapture in the middle of the 42 months. They have the rapture at the beginning of the 42 months then call it midtrib. Except midtrib obviously means in the middle of the tribulation, not at the beginning of it instead. In my mind, Pretrib and Midtrib are the exact same thing since both views have the rapture taking place before the 42 month reign of the beast begins, and that this 42 months is great tribulation. The 42 months that precede it certainly isn't great tribulation.

Assuming the entire 70th week is future, it would look like this. 1st half-no great tribulation. 2nd half-great tribulation. And where does midtrib have the rapture taking place? In the middle of the 2nd half, thus 21 months into the tribulation? No. They have it at the beginning, not the middle, of the 2nd half. Any rapture that takes place before the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week is Pretrib regardless what one labels that view, such as Midtrib, Anytime rapture, etc.

 

[DavidPT]

The joke about the 'not appointed to wrath', is that it is purely assumption and wishful thinking to think that has to mean removal, a taking away from the wrath of God.
Many Prophesies tell us how the Lord will PROTECT his faithful people; THROIUGH that time of fiery wrath, which will only last for one day. The 3 men in the furnace is the prime example.

If the early Church martyrs were not taken out of their persecution and horrible deaths, why should we today be spared trials and testing? The wrath of God, is after all - directed at the ungodly peoples. A 'rapture to heaven', at anytime is never Prophesied and will not happen.

If this is implying that the day of the Lord only involves one single day consisting of 24 hours or less, then I have to disagree with that. I am assuming the vials of wrath occur during the day of the Lord. And if I am correct about that, anyone should be able to discern that it is not possible that all of those events recorded in Revelation 16 are only involving one single 24 hour day or less.

 

[keras]

If this is implying that the day of the Lord only involves one single day consisting of 24 hours or less, then I have to disagree with that. I am assuming the vials of wrath occur during the day of the Lord.

The great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. A single day event. Isaiah 9:14, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8

More of God's wrath comes later, the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls; all over before Jesus Returns. Matthew 24:29, Revelation 15:1

 

[Jamdoc]

What they should label it is mid 70th week not mid tribulation. But even then it is still Pretrib the fact the great trib begins mid 70th week. That assuming the entire 70th week is still future. The first half of the 70th week is not great tribulation, only the 2nd half is. Since great tribulation is 42 months rather than 84 months, unless one can't even do simple math, mid 42 months is obviously not 42 months, it is 21 months. No one that I have ever encountered thinks there can be a rapture in the middle of the 42 months. They have the rapture at the beginning of the 42 months then call it midtrib. Except midtrib obviously means in the middle of the tribulation, not at the beginning of it instead. In my mind, Pretrib and Midtrib are the exact same thing since both views have the rapture taking place before the 42 month reign of the beast begins, and that this 42 months is great tribulation. The 42 months that precede it certainly isn't great tribulation.

Assuming the entire 70th week is future, it would look like this. 1st half-no great tribulation. 2nd half-great tribulation. And where does midtrib have the rapture taking place? In the middle of the 2nd half, thus 21 months into the tribulation? No. They have it at the beginning, not the middle, of the 2nd half. Any rapture that takes place before the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week is Pretrib regardless what one labels that view, such as Midtrib, Anytime rapture, etc.

When I've heard Midtrib explain it they mean exact middle of the 70th week, though I think not every person who calls themselves Mid Trib thinks it's actually at the midpoint of the 70th week, they likely just mean they believe the rapture will be during the 70th week not at the beginning or the end, likely mislabeled pre-wrath which also holds its rapture during the 70th week, usually at the 6th seal though some who would call themselves pre-wrath like Joel Richardson place it at the 7th trumpet. In both of those cases it could be mistaken as "mid trib" if they don't know what pre-wrath means.

Pretrib considers the entire 70th week "the 7 year tribulation" and that's why they place their position before the entire 7 years. Because in their minds they have considered the entire 70th week all God's wrath.

Post trib usually also tends to lump the entire 70th week as "the tribulation", but their position on the wrath of God is different, they'll claim that the trumpets and bowls are tribulation, not the wrath of God (ignoring what Revelation 6:17 says and Revelation 15 says about the bowls). For them, generally they will consider the trumpets and bowls "tribulation" or "judgements" but not the wrath of God, and then they will consider the wrath of God to ONLY be Armageddon at the very end (in order to not contradict 1 Thessalonians 5:9), and of course, there's the hybrid position between pre-wrath and post trib where they'll understand that the bowls are the wrath of God so they'll put Jesus returning at the 7th trumpet and just call the trumpets "tribulation" and not wrath. Dalton Thomas, who's Joel Richardson's collaborator will agree with that position but refers to himself as posttrib where Joel Richardson will consider himself pre-wrath and hold the 7th trumpet position.

Midtrib as far as I know also considers the entire 70th week as "the tribulation", that's the one I just don't understand at all because nothing in scripture suggests it even misinterpreted as far as I can tell.

Pre wrath is as far as I know the only position that consistently does not consider the entire 70th week "the tribulation" though they may use that term to communicate with other people who most likely have a different position. Pre wrath will consider the first half to be "birth pains" at most or even a false messianic period of peace (if they place the first 4 seals as happening before the 70th week which I lean towards), and the period of time after the abomination of desolation until the 6th seal "Great Tribulation" though they will not make it go the entire 42 months as pos trib will, and then after the 6th seal as "the wrath of God"

 

[Douggg]

@keras

keras
It won't, the dead know nothing, Eccl 9:5

That means your interpretation of 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is wrong - because it also effects the dead.

Those verses (verse 9) are referring to obtaining salvation - i.e. to the rapture (of the living)/ resurrection (of them who are asleep) in Christ. Our salvation is complete with the redemption of our bodies.

To take place before the beginning of the Day of the Lord - which begins when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. Shattering the peace and safety saying of the false messianic age.

1Thessalonians5, Paul indicates when the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4 will take place. Both passages end with...
"comfort yourselves together" and "Wherefore comfort one another with these words.."


9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[DavidPT]

Pre wrath is as far as I know the only position that consistently does not consider the entire 70th week "the tribulation" though they may use that term to communicate with other people who most likely have a different position. Pre wrath will consider the first half to be "birth pains" at most or even a false messianic period of peace (if they place the first 4 seals as happening before the 70th week which I lean towards), and the period of time after the abomination of desolation until the 6th seal "Great Tribulation" though they will not make it go the entire 42 months as pos trib will, and then after the 6th seal as "the wrath of God"

Would not Prewrath mean before any vials are poured out? If yes, the fact you are Prewrath, do you then think one can still repent of their deeds after Christ has returned?

Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


The text says they repented not, which then should mean repenting is still on the table except they refuse to repent.

This tells me that it is not reasonable that Christ has already returned at this point. Which might be why the following is where it is, between the 6th and 7th vial.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


You and I have had this discussion before. The fact you are Prewrath, which apparently means that the rapture has to precede all 7 vials, maybe you do think it is reasonable that repenting can still be an option after Christ has returned?

As to Post Trib, you apparently don't understand that view the same way most Post Tribbers do. For example, most Amils or maybe even all are Post Trib. Which means the 70th week is irrelevant in their case, and that most Amils take all 70 weeks to have been fulfilled. And there are even Premils who take the 70 weeks to be entirely fulfilled, and that these Premils are also Post Trib.

As to me, I don't believe all 70 weeks have been fulfilled. Either the entire 70th week is future or only the last half is. Regardless which it might be, I do not think the entire 70th week is tribulation, assuming the entire week is still future. I only think the last half is tribulation. And that I then think the vials of wrath are after tribulation and that Christ returns during or after the 7th vial of wrath. None of this contradicts the 4th and 5th vial where we are told they repented not, meaning repenting is still an option except they refuse to do it, and that it is unreasonable that repenting could still be an option after Christ has returned. Therefore, Prewrath can't be Biblical if Christ hasn't even returned before the first vial is poured out. And that the 4th and 5th vial alone proves this since it is not reasonable that repenting could still be an option once Christ has returned.

 

[Douggg]

When I've heard Midtrib explain it they mean exact middle of the 70th week, though I think not every person who calls themselves Mid Trib thinks it's actually at the midpoint of the 70th week, they likely just mean they believe the rapture will be during the 70th week not at the beginning or the end, likely mislabeled pre-wrath which also holds its rapture during the 70th week, usually at the 6th seal though some who would call themselves pre-wrath like Joel Richardson place it at the 7th trumpet. In both of those cases it could be mistaken as "mid trib" if they don't know what pre-wrath means.

Pretrib considers the entire 70th week "the 7 year tribulation" and that's why they place their position before the entire 7 years. Because in their minds they have considered the entire 70th week all God's wrath.

Post trib usually also tends to lump the entire 70th week as "the tribulation", but their position on the wrath of God is different, they'll claim that the trumpets and bowls are tribulation, not the wrath of God (ignoring what Revelation 6:17 says and Revelation 15 says about the bowls). For them, generally they will consider the trumpets and bowls "tribulation" or "judgements" but not the wrath of God, and then they will consider the wrath of God to ONLY be Armageddon at the very end (in order to not contradict 1 Thessalonians 5:9), and of course, there's the hybrid position between pre-wrath and post trib where they'll understand that the bowls are the wrath of God so they'll put Jesus returning at the 7th trumpet and just call the trumpets "tribulation" and not wrath. Dalton Thomas, who's Joel Richardson's collaborator will agree with that position but refers to himself as posttrib where Joel Richardson will consider himself pre-wrath and hold the 7th trumpet position.

Midtrib as far as I know also considers the entire 70th week as "the tribulation", that's the one I just don't understand at all because nothing in scripture suggests it even misinterpreted as far as I can tell.

Pre wrath is as far as I know the only position that consistently does not consider the entire 70th week "the tribulation" though they may use that term to communicate with other people who most likely have a different position. Pre wrath will consider the first half to be "birth pains" at most or even a false messianic period of peace (if they place the first 4 seals as happening before the 70th week which I lean towards), and the period of time after the abomination of desolation until the 6th seal "Great Tribulation" though they will not make it go the entire 42 months as pos trib will, and then after the 6th seal as "the wrath of God"

I agree that labels can be confusing and misleading. But let's look at the verses themselves.

In Matthew 24, Jesus says he comes like a thief in the night. In 1Thessalonians5, the beginning of the day of the Lord begins like a thief in the night.

Condition of the world at that time in both Matthew 24 and 1Thessalonians5, business as normal - the world not in stress. Marrying and giving in marriages. The world saying peace and safety.

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The most well known rapture/resurrection verses are 1Thessalonians4:15-18. Ending with comfort one another with these words.

Then, if we take notice, Paul in 1Thessalononians5, tells when the rapture/resurrection will take place, as he continues writing.

First, peace and safety, suddenly shattered by the beginning of the day of the Lord - like a thief in the night. Remember in Matthew 24, Jesus said much the same, business as usual, and his coming like a thief in the night.

In 1Thessalonians5:9, Paul says that we are not appointed to wrath - implied to take place when the day of the Lord begins - but unto Salvation. Our salvation is complete with the redemption of our bodies. Our souls have already been redeemed when we embraced Jesus as our savior.

In 1Thessalonians5:10, whether we are wake or sleep - just as he said before in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, the dead in Christ and the living in Christ, we should live together with Jesus. Jesus who shall come for us and take us to heaven where He has prepared mansions.

And finally in 1Thessalonians5:11, comfort ourselves together - same sentiment to end 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

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So two questions arise:

1. What induces the world to be saying peace and safety? Answer: the world thinks it has entered the messianic age, promoted by the Jews who will have mistakenly embraced the Antichrist as their messiah, and him anointed the King of Israel.

2. What triggers the beginning of the day of Lord? Answer: When said thought to be messiah, reveals his true colors, as the man of sin, by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Sometime, around three years (not the exact mid-point) into the 70th week (we don't have enough information to say exactly. But we do have enough information to make a good approximation of around 3 years).

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So when will the rapture occur ? It could occur today, but it must occur before the act of the Antichrist, sometime around three years into the 70th week.

 

[DavidPT]

In Matthew 24, Jesus says he comes like a thief in the night. In 1Thessalonians5, the beginning of the day of the Lord begins like a thief in the night.

Condition of the world at that time in both Matthew 24 and 1Thessalonians5, business as normal - the world not in stress. Marrying and giving in marriages. The world saying peace and safety.

-------------------------------------------------------

The most well known rapture/resurrection verses are 1Thessalonians4:15-18. Ending with comfort one another with these words.

Then, if we take notice, Paul in 1Thessalononians5, tells when the rapture/resurrection will take place, as he continues writing.

First, peace and safety, suddenly shattered by the beginning of the day of the Lord - like a thief in the night. Remember in Matthew 24, Jesus said much the same, business as usual, and his coming like a thief in the night.

In 1Thessalonians5:9, Paul says that we are not appointed to wrath - implied to take place when the day of the Lord begins - but unto Salvation. Our salvation is complete with the redemption of our bodies. Our souls have already been redeemed when embrace Jesus as our savior.

In 1Thessalonians5:10, whether we are wake or sleep - just as he said before in 1Thessalonians4:15-18, we should live together with Jesus.
Jesus who shall come for us and take us to heaven where He has prepared mansions.

And finally in 1Thessalonians5:11, comfort ourselves together - same sentiment to end 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So two questions arise:

1. What induces the world to be saying peace and safety? Answer: the world thinks it has entered the messianic age, promoted by the Jews who will have mistakenly embraced the Antichrist as their messiah, and him anointed the King of Israel.

2. What triggers the beginning of the day of Lord? Answer: When said thought to be messiah, reveals his colors, as the man of sin, by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Sometime, around three years (not the exact mid-point) into the 70th week (we don't have enough information to say exactly. But we do have enough information to make a good guess)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So when will the rapture occur ? It could occur today, but it must occur before the act of the Antichrist, sometime around three years into the 70th week.

It also says in Revelation 16 between the 6th and 7th vial that He comes as a thief.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


How many times should we assume He comes as a thief?

Obviously, maybe not to you though, the vials of wrath are after great tribulation, not prior to nor during instead. This means that the 6th seal involves the day of the Lord and that Matthew 24:29 proves that the day of the Lord is after tribulation, not before or during it instead.

 

[Douggg]

It also says in Revelation 16 between the 6th and 7th vial that He comes as a thief.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Yes, but at that time the world is not at rest.

It is talking about the sudden appearance of the Son of Man in heaven, near the end of the great tribulation. The message is to the Jews and all that have turned to Jesus during the great tribulation, i.e the great tribulation saints.

Obviously, maybe not to you though, the vials of wrath are after great tribulation, not prior to nor during instead. This means that the 6th seal involves the day of the Lord and that Matthew 24:29 proves that the day of the Lord is after tribulation, not before or during it instead.

David, the text of Matthew 24:29 says after the tribulation of those days. Not after the great tribulation is complete. There is still the seventh vial of God's wrath left.

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David, you are coming to the wrong conclusions because you are taking only half of what Jesus said about coming like a thief in Matthew 24. The other half is that he world must be in a state of ease, not stress.

 

[linux.poet]

Rev 20:4-6 plainly says they may die again; as Lazarus did.

Those martyrs will be resurrected back to mortality and that verse undeniably states the possibility/probability, that they will die again.

I'm confused. Perhaps you are referring to Revelation 20: 5, which says "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." People who take the Pre - trib rapture position believe that refers to the unbelieving dead, which aren't resurrected until the GWT. The believers are resurrected at the Rapture, which takes place before that.

My Biblically correct timing, is that immortality is only given at the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 THEN Eternity comes.

Just because Revelation 20:11-15 describes a resurrection to immortality, that doesn't preclude resurrections to immorality happening before it.

and you have now turned to making personal accusations - which is against the forum rules btw.

If you see someone breaking a rule, please just report it to the staff for review using the report button. Commenting on rules someone has or hasn't broken is Disruptive Behavior, which is also against the rules.

 

[keras]

I'm confused. Perhaps you are referring to Revelation 20: 5, which says "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

Yes; and Revelation 20:11-15, where it plainly says when all the dead people will rise to the Judgment.

The believers are resurrected at the Rapture, which takes place before that.

Impossible! There can be no immortality before the final Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.

Just because Revelation 20:11-15 describes a resurrection to immortality, that doesn't preclude resurrections to immorality happening before it.

But it does, because such a thing is never said to happen before the end of the Millennium. Many Prophesies Promise it will happen; to those who keep strong in their faith through all that must happen, without saying exactly when.
That we must endure until the end, is sufficient proof of when.

Obviously, immortality cannot be given before the new heavens and earth comes, along with Eternity. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[linux.poet]

Impossible!

I believe in the impossible.

After all, I believe that a man rose from the dead 3 days after his death. That is impossible by everything we know, yet we have undeniable proof that it occurred. Therefore, if I believe in such an impossibility, I am more likely to believe in the second one, which is outlined in 1 Thessalonians 4:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

The coming of the Lord must precede the Millennium, because Christ is ruling and reigning during the Millennium. Therefore, there are two resurrections. Revelation 20:6 even talks about a first resurrection of believers that proceeds the Millennium.

 

[Douggg]

If you see someone breaking a rule, please just report it to the staff for review using the report button. Commenting on rules someone has or hasn't broken is Disruptive Behavior, which is also against the rules.

In this particular case, I did not want the other person to be given a possible timeout or points accessed was my reasoning. But I understand what you are saying, nonetheless.

 

[keras]

I believe in the impossible.

How is it possible for some people to receive immortality before Eternity comes? To be immortal means Eternal life.

The coming of the Lord must precede the Millennium, because Christ is ruling and reigning during the Millennium. Therefore, there are two resurrections. Revelation 20:6 even talks about a first resurrection of believers that proceeds the Millennium.

Quite correct. That first resurrection will be just the martyrs killed for refusing the mark of the beast. Tev 20:4
1 Thess 4:17 is not a gathering to heaven or any kind of bodily change. It will be a transportation of the faithful peoples to where Jesus will be- in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31

 

[linux.poet]

How is it possible for some people to receive immortality before Eternity comes?

God makes them immortal.

37 For nothing will be impossible with God.

And looking at them, Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Looking at them, Jesus *said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”

Quite correct. That first resurrection will be just the martyrs killed for refusing the mark of the beast. Tev 20:4
1 Thess 4:17 is not a gathering to heaven or any kind of bodily change. It will be a transportation of the faithful peoples to where Jesus will be- in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31

That is an interesting interpretation of Eschatological Scriptures. The only problem is that Paul was writing to the believers in Thessalonica who were concerned about their dead. If 1 Thessalonians 4 does not resurrect all believers, Paul was giving the Thessalonian believers false hope.

 

[Jamdoc]

Would not Prewrath mean before any vials are poured out? If yes, the fact you are Prewrath, do you then think one can still repent of their deeds after Christ has returned?

[/QUOTE]

Revelation 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


The text says they repented not, which then should mean repenting is still on the table except they refuse to repent.

Before the trumpets or vials, sixth/seventh seal is the return of Christ.

Them not repenting is not saying repenting is still possible and the door is still open. It signifies that the door is closed actually, that salvation is no longer possible, that the famine of hearing the words of the Lord in Amos 8 is happening, and that the 5 wise virgins entered, and the 5 foolish have been locked out.

This tells me that it is not reasonable that Christ has already returned at this point. Which might be why the following is where it is, between the 6th and 7th vial.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


You and I have had this discussion before. The fact you are Prewrath, which apparently means that the rapture has to precede all 7 vials, maybe you do think it is reasonable that repenting can still be an option after Christ has returned?

As to Post Trib, you apparently don't understand that view the same way most Post Tribbers do. For example, most Amils or maybe even all are Post Trib. Which means the 70th week is irrelevant in their case, and that most Amils take all 70 weeks to have been fulfilled. And there are even Premils who take the 70 weeks to be entirely fulfilled, and that these Premils are also Post Trib.

As to me, I don't believe all 70 weeks have been fulfilled. Either the entire 70th week is future or only the last half is. Regardless which it might be, I do not think the entire 70th week is tribulation, assuming the entire week is still future. I only think the last half is tribulation. And that I then think the vials of wrath are after tribulation and that Christ returns during or after the 7th vial of wrath. None of this contradicts the 4th and 5th vial where we are told they repented not, meaning repenting is still an option except they refuse to do it, and that it is unreasonable that repenting could still be an option after Christ has returned. Therefore, Prewrath can't be Biblical if Christ hasn't even returned before the first vial is poured out. And that the 4th and 5th vial alone proves this since it is not reasonable that repenting could still be an option once Christ has returned.

If Christ does not return for years after the 6th seal, then He lied in the Olivet Discourse.


anyway, here is a concept. that something may be legally possible, but practically impossible.

Throughout the bible we're told we will be judged by our works, but also told only those who believe and are in the lamb's book of life will not be condemned.

Judging by works, means that legally, it is possible, to escape condemnation based on how you live your own life, if you never sin, but practically it's impossible, because everyone sins.

similarly the offer for repentance is there, but nobody does it. It's legally possible, but practically impossible.

So, blessed is he who keeps his clothes... but the reality is, none will be.

Because if you want to go that literal, and hold a post trib understanding then you are faced with this from Revelation 9:

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

according to the same standard you're holding, and your eschatalogical position you would still be on Earth at this time, and you either were killed by the first 6 trumpets, or you are worshiping devils and won't repent.

I mean I believe the rapture has taken place by this point, so we're not on Earth, so the people left on Earth, among gentiles anyway, don't repent, so there's no contradiction there.

But under your position, that's a pretty grim outlook for everyone who doesn't get killed.

 

[Douggg]

@Jamdoc

I was looking at your avatar information "watching and praying always" . I assume that you take that from Luke 21:34-36 of Jesus's instructions for what we are to do.

Do you believe the rapture/resurrection could take place, possibly today even ? And if so, then what we all may be disagreeing over, to varying degrees, is the latest deadline that the rapture/resurrection takes place.

i.e.

1. some are saying before the 70th week begins - pre-trib
2. some are saying before the wrath of God takes place - in the vials of God's wrath - pre-wrath (is this your view?)
3. I am saying before the ToD act takes place - the anytime rapture view (a name I came up with)

The only oddity in the group of beliefs is post-trib which says the rapture/resurrection cannot take place before the day that Jesus returns. That view does not suppose a deadline, but just the reverse, not earlier than.

​

 

[Douggg]

That is an interesting interpretation of Eschatological Scriptures. The only problem is that Paul was writing to the believers in Thessalonica who were concerned about their dead. If 1 Thessalonians 4 does not resurrect all believers, Paul was giving the Thessalonian believers false hope.

The rapture/resurrection that Paul revealed to the Thessalonians to happen - and when (the window is closing) - includes all Christians, both the living and the dead up to that point in time it actually takes place. Gone from the earth.

Then everyone else alive, as non-Christians, are "left behind".

Going forward, those people will make choices - up to the time that Jesus Returns. One choice, the right choice, is to believe in Jesus, and become one of the great tribulation saints. Some of whom will be killed as martyrs. Those are the ones who will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, to eternal life.

 

[keras]

God makes them immortal.

None of the Prophesies that say people will receive Eternal life, say it could happen before the final Judgment. Thinking it could or will happen to anyone before Eternity comes; Revelation 21:1-7, is simply wishful thinking and is totally unsupported by scripture.

If 1 Thessalonians 4 does not resurrect all believers, Paul was giving the Thessalonian believers false hope.

ALL the people who have ever lived will rise to stand before God; Revelation 20:11-5 and those believers who lived in Thessonalika, whom Paul wrote to, will then resurrect into immortality. God will reward them for their faith, as He will for every righteous person from Adam.
This change cannot come before the end of the Millennium, when the Book of Life will be opened.