The Four Stages of Mankind's Redemption:

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I didn't ask a question, I made a point regarding how Paul taught that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and therefore Matthew 25:31-46 does not allow for any mortals to populate the earth after Jesus returns since all believers will inherit eternal life in the kingdom of God at that point with all unbelievers being cast into the eternal fire. So, are you saying you don't know if you agree with my point or not?

Another point I would like to make is that since we all know that Matthew 25:31-46 occurs after the tribulation of those days, and that Matthew 25:31-46 describes the time when we will inherit eternal life in the kingdom of God with immortal bodies, then that shows that 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 will be fulfilled at the same time as Matthew 25:31-46, which will be after the tribulation, not before.

Paul was talking about Heaven, not the Millennium Kingdom on Earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I believe that 1 Cor 15:52 relates to the same event as 1 Thess 4:16, but nowhere in those verses, or in the passages that they are part of, does it say anything about a pre-trib rapture.


You didn't address my point. You have mortal flesh and blood people inheriting the kingdom of God in Matthew 25:34,46 which contradicts the fact that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50-54). Also, Matthew 25:34,46 has the sheep (the righteous) inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God, showing that they are immortal since they have eternal life at that point.

You’re calling the Millennium Kingdom the Kingdom of God. It is not in the sense that Satan still has influence and there are certified unbelievers that live on Earth during the Millennial Kingdom. Who are all the folks trying to put an end to the Millennial Kingdom in Rev 20:7-9?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I believe that 1 Cor 15:52 relates to the same event as 1 Thess 4:16, but nowhere in those verses, or in the passages that they are part of, does it say anything about a pre-trib rapture.


You didn't address my point. You have mortal flesh and blood people inheriting the kingdom of God in Matthew 25:34,46 which contradicts the fact that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50-54). Also, Matthew 25:34,46 has the sheep (the righteous) inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God, showing that they are immortal since they have eternal life at that point.

There’s no verse that says everything about the pre-Trib rapture. Rev 4:1 comes closest by proving the timing (pre-Trib) and that we will be raptured straight to Heaven.

The other rapture-related verses fill in the blanks in other ways. 1 Th 4:16 fulfills the shout in Rev 4:1. 1 Th 4:16 is fulfilled with 1 Cor 15:52. Then 1 Th 4:17 is fulfilled and we are in the air of Heaven in our eternal bodies, awaiting the glorious appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul was talking about Heaven, not the Millennium Kingdom on Earth.

Paul is talking about inheriting the kingdom of God with immortal bodies. How is that different from what is described in Matthew 25:31-46 where believers inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the creation of the world? How can you deny that the kingdom referenced in Matthew 25:34 is the kingdom of God that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit? It's clearly a reference to the kingdom of God and it shows only people with eternal life inheriting it. That matches up with what it says in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There’s no verse that says everything about the pre-Trib rapture. Rev 4:1 comes closest by proving the timing (pre-Trib) and that we will be raptured straight to Heaven.

The other rapture-related verses fill in the blanks in other ways. 1 Th 4:16 fulfills the shout in Rev 4:1. 1 Th 4:16 is fulfilled with 1 Cor 15:52. Then 1 Th 4:17 is fulfilled and we are in the air of Heaven in our eternal bodies, awaiting the glorious appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You are just ignoring my points because you just believe whatever you want to believe. You have mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God in Matthew 25:31-46 and that contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Instead of dealing with that, you just brush it under the rug.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You’re calling the Millennium Kingdom the Kingdom of God.

How can the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world that believers will inherit eternally (Matthew 25:34,46) not be the kingdom of God?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Paul is talking about inheriting the kingdom of God with immortal bodies. How is that different from what is described in Matthew 25:31-46 where believers inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the creation of the world? How can you deny that the kingdom referenced in Matthew 25:34 is the kingdom of God that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit? It's clearly a reference to the kingdom of God and it shows only people with eternal life inheriting it. That matches up with what it says in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

Why do you combine Matt 25:31-40 and Matt 25:41-46 and speak of them as one group?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You are just ignoring my points because you just believe whatever you want to believe. You have mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God in Matthew 25:31-46 and that contradicts 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Instead of dealing with that, you just brush it under the rug.

How can the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world that believers will inherit eternally (Matthew 25:34,46) not be the kingdom of God?

First, please define “Kingdom of God.”

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Paul is talking about inheriting the kingdom of God with immortal bodies. How is that different from what is described in Matthew 25:31-46 where believers inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the creation of the world? How can you deny that the kingdom referenced in Matthew 25:34 is the kingdom of God that mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit? It's clearly a reference to the kingdom of God and it shows only people with eternal life inheriting it. That matches up with what it says in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

When does the Millennial Kingdom begin?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why do you combine Matt 25:31-40 and Matt 25:41-46 and speak of them as one group?

What do you mean? Matthew 25:31-46 is all part of the same judgment. That's obvious. But, I'm not trying to put the sheep and the goats in the same group, if that's what you mean. But, what you might be missing is that Matthew 25:46 summarizes what happens to the sheep and the goats.

After talking to the goats about how they didn't serve Him by helping the needy, Jesus summed up what will happen to them and what will happen to the sheep at that time.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In this verse "these" refer to those that Jesus had just been talking to, which are the goats, and "the righteous" refer to the sheep who will inherit eternal life at that time.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

First, please define “Kingdom of God.”

No, not yet. Please answer my question first and then I will address this. I asked first, so that's only fair.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

When does the Millennial Kingdom begin?

Are you aware of the Amillennialism doctrine? I'm an Amillennialist. So, I believe the thousand years is figurative for the time that began with Christ's resurrection which is when He began to reign. He said He had been given all power in heaven and earth back then.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What do you mean? Matthew 25:31-46 is all part of the same judgment. That's obvious. But, I'm not trying to put the sheep and the goats in the same group, if that's what you mean. But, what you might be missing is that Matthew 25:46 summarizes what happens to the sheep and the goats.

After talking to the goats about how they didn't serve Him by helping the needy, Jesus summed up what will happen to them and what will happen to the sheep at that time.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In this verse "these" refer to those that Jesus had just been talking to, which are the goats, and "the righteous" refer to the sheep who will inherit eternal life at that time.

The sheep are judged separately. Their judgment is then issued. After the conclusion of the sheep’s judgment, the judgment of the goats begins.

They are not the same judgment.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The thousand years for the MK is stated in Rev 20:1-6 (ESV): Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

There’s your proof that there’s truly a period of one thousand years that are for the MK. The name “Millennial Kingdom” is not in the Bible. It’s a name that refers to the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ on Earth, after the 2A (2nd Advent), Armageddon and the judgments of the sheep and goats.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The sheep are judged separately. Their judgment is then issued. After the conclusion of the sheep’s judgment, the judgment of the goats begins.

They are not the same judgment.

So, do you see the sheep judgment as taking place throughout the thousand years and then the goats being judged after that which would mean the goats just have to wait there for 1,000+ years waiting for their turn to be judged?

Imagine Jesus having to judge billions of people in real time instead of in the realm of eternity. Why would He put Himself through that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The thousand years for the MK is stated in Rev 20:1-6 (ESV):

Yes, I'm well aware of that as is everyone else here. The questions to answer are when does it take place and is it a literal or figurative thousand years?

 

[keras]

Yes, I'm well aware of that as is everyone else here. The questions to answer are when does it take place and is it a literal or figurative thousand years?

There is no valid reason to even question when or how long the Millennium reign of Jesus will be.
Revelation 20 is perfectly clear on those points and to make out they are something other than what is clearly stated, is to question the validity of the whole Bible.
Other theories just leave people afloat on a sea of confusion and doubt. That is not how God wants His people to be;

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So, do you see the sheep judgment as taking place throughout the thousand years and then the goats being judged after that which would mean the goats just have to wait there for 1,000+ years waiting for their turn to be judged?

Imagine Jesus having to judge billions of people in real time instead of in the realm of eternity. Why would He put Himself through that?

No. Matt 25:31-32 (ESV) clearly say otherwise. The judgment occurs after the 2A (and after Armageddon and Matt 24:31 — the gathering of the sheep). The goats are unbelievers who survive the 7-year Trib.

Matt 25:31-46 (ESV):
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So, do you see the sheep judgment as taking place throughout the thousand years and then the goats being judged after that which would mean the goats just have to wait there for 1,000+ years waiting for their turn to be judged?

Imagine Jesus having to judge billions of people in real time instead of in the realm of eternity. Why would He put Himself through that?

It is after Matt 25:31-46, that Rev 20:1-3 occur, which start the Millennial Kingdom’s 1,000 years:

Rev 20:1-3 (ESV): Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There is no valid reason to even question when or how long the Millennium reign of Jesus will be.
Revelation 20 is perfectly clear on those points and to make out they are something other than what is clearly stated, is to question the validity of the whole Bible.
Other theories just leave people afloat on a sea of confusion and doubt. That is not how God wants His people to be;

If I happened to have the wrong interpretation of Revelation 20 that would be a case of questioning the validity of the whole Bible? Never has a more nonsensical statement ever been made.

By disagreeing with your interpretation of Revelation 20 am I denying the deity of Christ? Am I denying that He died for the sins of the whole world? Am I denying that He rose from the dead? Am I denying that He will come again in the future? The answer is no to all of those questions. So, no, if someone interprets Revelation 20 wrongly that does not mean they are questioning the validity of the whole Bible.