What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

What is your Eschatological viewpoint?


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RandyPNW

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They are CHRISTIANS, whether Jews or Gentiles, filled with the Holy Spirit, exiled into neighboring countries as their churches are expanding. Nothing to do with "literal Israel" or "National Israel!"

So yes, you are incorrect in your interpretations.
No, actually you are incorrect. All Christians are not "exiles!" Here you are calling me "incorrect" when you are brazenly misrepresenting the passage. If you expect your arguments to be accepted, your arguments must be predicated on realities--not imaginary definitions of words like "exiles." Are you, as a Christian, an "exile?" No, of course not! Peter was addressing real exiles! You're trying to spiritualize the word "exile!"

If you can't discuss things using real definitions of words, then there's no sense in my discussing things further with you. Though I sound pretty hard-nosed about this, in reality I'm just "returning the favor." In reality I recognize that Christians throughout history, primarily Amillennialists, have viewed Jewish believers in non-racial terms. And so, they view Christians in general as sojourners in a kind of spiritual "exile," as long as they live in a world dominated by Satanic rule.

So I suggest you stop trying to use definitive, insulting words like "incorrect," as if there is no legitimate argument here. One cannot term something arguable as "incorrect." Rather, it is a difference of opinion with legitimate arguments on either side.

1 Peter 1:1 Commentaries: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
Elicott:
To the strangers scattered throughout . . .—Literally, to the elect, sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus. The persons for whom the Letter is destined are very clearly specified. In John 7:35 we have “the dispersion of the Greeks,” where it clearly means “those of the dispersed Jews who live among the Greeks,” so here “the dispersion of Pontus,” or “the Pontine dispersion,” will mean “those of, the dispersed Jews who live in Pontus.” This, then, is clear, that the Apostle of the Circumcision is writing to those of the Circumcision. The addition of the words “the blood of Jesus Christ” is the only thing which shows that they are Christian Jews.
 
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TribulationSigns

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No, actually you are incorrect.

Very unlikely!

All Christians are not "exiles!"

Sigh!!!

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

They are Christians with power after being filled with the Holy Ghost to go forth to the ends of the Earth. The Jews first, then the Gentiles. Start with Peter, John, Matthew, and all those people received at Pentecost. Nothing to do with national Israel or unbelieving ethnic Jews.


Here you are calling me "incorrect" when you are brazenly misrepresenting the passage. If you expect your arguments to be accepted, your arguments must be predicated on realities--not imaginary definitions of words like "exiles." Are you, as a Christian, an "exile?" No, of course not! Peter was addressing real exiles! You're trying to spiritualize the word "exile!"

Wrong!

If you can't discuss things using real definitions of words, then there's no sense in my discussing things further with you.

The Lord judges and I am comfortable with it. Not a problem!

Though I sound pretty hard-nosed about this, in reality I'm just "returning the favor." In reality I recognize that Christians throughout history, primarily Amillennialists, have viewed Jewish believers in non-racial terms. And so, they view Christians in general as sojourners in a kind of spiritual "exile," as long as they live in a world dominated by Satanic rule.

Humm.. okay...


So I suggest you stop trying to use definitive, insulting words like "incorrect,"

Because you are.

as if there is no legitimate argument here. One cannot term something arguable as "incorrect." Rather, it is a difference of opinion with legitimate arguments on either side.

1 Peter 1:1 Commentaries: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
Elicott:
To the strangers scattered throughout . . .—Literally, to the elect, sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus. The persons for whom the Letter is destined are very clearly specified. In John 7:35 we have “the dispersion of the Greeks,” where it clearly means “those of the dispersed Jews who live among the Greeks,” so here “the dispersion of Pontus,” or “the Pontine dispersion,” will mean “those of, the dispersed Jews who live in Pontus.” This, then, is clear, that the Apostle of the Circumcision is writing to those of the Circumcision. The addition of the words “the blood of Jesus Christ” is the only thing which shows that they are Christian Jews.

Who did Peter actually talked to?

1Pe 1:1-2

(1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
(2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So? This is speaking of Christians being scattered, first the Christian Jews then the Christian Gentiles.

Nothing of this has to do anything with future national salvation for the Jews in the future.
 
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keras

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. All Christians are not "exiles!"
The holy Land is our heritage, we will be there when the Anti-Christ is in power.

Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ we have been given our share in the heritage, as was decreed in His design …for it was God’s will that we, who were the first to set our hope on Jesus and to praise His glory.
And, in Christ, you Christians also, once you believed and received the Holy Spirit, the promise of the inheritance that will be ours, when God has redeemed all of His own, to His glory and praise.


Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, the Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises made through Jesus.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit of God affirms that we are His children and if children, then also the heirs of God and fellow heirs with Jesus, but we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.

Romans 8:19 The Created universe is waiting with eager expectation for God’s sons to be revealed.



Our greatest hope as born again Christians, is the promise of eternal life. John 3:16,Titus 3:5-7, +

But we also inherit the Land promises, Psalms 37:29, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Ezekiel 34:11-31 It is we Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language, that are the vast multitude seen waving palm branches in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9

We are the ones who have passed thru the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal disaster and have earned the white garments by standing firm in our faith. Revelation 7:14

Note: in Romans 8:19, that God’s true children are not yet made known, Jesus will come with His winnowing fork and sift the wheat from the chaff. Matthew 3:12
Those Christians who stood strong in their faith when He comes in fire, Luke 12:49, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, are the wheat that will be gathered into the granary of the holy Land. Ezekiel 37:21, Hosea 11:10-11, Psalms 50:5, Jeremiah 31:8-9, +
The chaff of the ungodly peoples will be as ashes under our feet. Isaiah 66:17, Malachi 4:3, 2 Peter 3:7

 
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RandyPNW

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Very unlikely!



Sigh!!!

Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

They are Christians with power after being filled with the Holy Ghost to go forth to the ends of the Earth. The Jews first, then the Gentiles. Start with Peter, John, Matthew, and all those people received at Pentecost. Nothing to do with national Israel or unbelieving ethnic Jews.




Wrong!



The Lord judges and I am comfortable with it. Not a problem!



Humm.. okay...




Because you are.



Who did Peter actually talked to?

1Pe 1:1-2

(1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
(2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So? This is speaking of Christians being scattered, first the Christian Jews then the Christian Gentiles.

Nothing of this has to do anything with future national salvation for the Jews in the future.
This appears to be sleight of hand. We both agree Peter was speaking to *Christian Jews.* But then you slip in there "then the Christian Gentiles." Where did Paul reference "Christian Gentiles?" Right--he didn't!

I'm not taking issue with your right to have a different opinion. But to call my view "incorrect" when it is *you* who are adding the words "Christian Gentiles" is illegitimate. It is arguable, yes.

But to call a questionable matter definitive, and any position other than your own "incorrect" just inflames a reasonable discussion. That's all I'm saying.

It's like your saying 2 +2 = 4, and my saying 3 + 3 = 6. Both positions are correct. From your pov, my answer does not equal "4" and so my answer is "incorrect." But we have different equations.

You say that "Gentile Christians" is a part of the equation. And I say it isn't. I provide evidence that Christian Jews of the Dispersion are the audience, and you claim, without explicit evidence, that it must include Christian Gentiles.

And so, the matter is debatable. But to call my 3 + 3 = 6 "incorrect" is flat out wrong! If indeed Christian Jews are the explicitly-stated target, then I have the right equation, assuming Gentile Christians are not explicitly added. And that is the question.

I suggest you not build your theological position on a questionable interpretation of a debatable passage. That would be irresponsible. It is much more affirming to base your position on several passages stating the same thing. And nowhere do we have Gentile Christians identified as the nation of Israel, or "spiritual Jews," if that's what you wish to prove.

On the contrary, we have many, many prophecies in the OT that affirm national Israel's hope for an eventual restoration under Christ. The NT affirms this as well, markedly in Rom 9-11 and in Acts 1.6-7.
 
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TribulationSigns

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This appears to be sleight of hand. We both agree Peter was speaking to *Christian Jews.* But then you slip in there "then the Christian Gentiles." Where did Paul reference "Christian Gentiles?" Right--he didn't!z

Read Romans 15:14-33

Remember the Jews first then the Gentiles, yet they are one and the same in Christ. Selah!

Rom 3:29
(29) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 9:24-26

(24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
(25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
(26) And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

1Co 12:12-13

(12) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
(13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Together, both redeemed Jews and Gentiles is the HOLY NATION of Israel *IN CHRIST*
1Pe 2:9-12
(9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(10) Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
(11) Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
(12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

But you are earthly-minded that only focus on the restoration of the physical nation of Israel in the future, ignoring the true spiritual nation of Israel in Christ making up of both Jews and Gentiles.

And nowhere do we have Gentile Christians identified as the nation of Israel, or "spiritual Jews," if that's what you wish to prove.

If you hold on to a modern physical nation in the plot of dirt in the Middle East, then you will be as blind as the Jews back in Christ's day thinking He will restore their physical nation that is NOT in God's view. Sorry!

On the contrary, we have many, many prophecies in the OT that affirm national Israel's hope for an eventual restoration under Christ. The NT affirms this as well, markedly in Rom 9-11 and in Acts 1.6-7.

Please! For starter, you do not even really understand what Romans 9 talks about:

The "mystery" God tells us was that Gentiles would be grafted in and take part in the Covenant Olive Tree right along with the Jews. In other words, the Jews haven't been replaced, they have been joined in that Covenanted relationship with God by the Gentiles. Meaning the "true" Jews were not cast off (ie. Paul, Peter, Matthew, Etc.), only those who remained in unbelief were. The "true" Israel was not cast off, and the promises to Abraham and to Israel will be kept in this remnant and is fulfilled. Not in the way Dispensationalists want, but in the way God always prophetically intended.

Romans 2:28-29
  • "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
  • But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
Who do we believe, God or Dispensationalists? Are the Jews the Chosen people? Indeed. But Jews "as God defines them", and He doesn't define the chosen (election) as a "political nation", a "blood line", or "genealogical flesh" in the Middle East. In fact, God Himself tells us point blank, that is "NOT" the Israel of God, and they are "NOT" the children of God. I did not say that, God did!

Romans 9:7-8
  • "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
  • That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
The only question is, will Dispensationalists continue to ignore God's words as they always do? The promise was kept, the word of God is not of made of none effect, it is kept as God prophetically intended. We cannot twist God's word to suit ourselves. Comparing scripture with scripture, God interprets His own word, and it is not subject to our own private interpretation. It says what it says. So read again...

Romans 9:6-8
  • "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
  • Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
  • That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Clearly, God doesn't define Israel as the nation in the middle east, or the physical posterity of Jacob as the children of the promise. Only a remnant from that nation is accounted to be "of" Israel. That's the whole point of Romans chapter 9. God does not define the Jewish people and the nation Israel the same way you and the Dispensationalists choose to define them. He says these are "NOT" the children of God. For God does what is right in His eyes, not in Dispensationalist's eyes.

Bingo!
 
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keras

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we have many, many prophecies in the OT that affirm national Israel's hope for an eventual restoration under Christ
Those Prophesies do specify Israel as the descendants of Jacob.
But your insistence that those descendants are now only those who claim descent: the Jewish people, is your bad mistake.

The descendants of Jacob; Israel - are now as many as the sands of the sea. Hosea 1:10, Hebrews 11:12 They are scattered among the nations; Nehimiah 1:8, James 1:1
The Day will come when they will all be gathered and Judged. Only the faithful, righteous Christian peoples will be allowed to enter and live in the holy Land. Described in Ezekiel 20:34-38
Only a small number of them will be those who claim to be Israel now. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 6:11-13
 
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RandyPNW

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Those Prophesies do specify Israel as the descendants of Jacob.
But your insistence that those descendants are now only those who claim descent: the Jewish people, is your bad mistake.

The descendants of Jacob; Israel - are now as many as the sands of the sea. Hosea 1:10, Hebrews 11:12 They are scattered among the nations; Nehimiah 1:8, James 1:1
The Day will come when they will all be gathered and Judged. Only the faithful, righteous Christian peoples will be allowed to enter and live in the holy Land. Described in Ezekiel 20:34-38
Only a small number of them will be those who claim to be Israel now. Romans 9:27, Isaiah 6:11-13
The problem with this is, the promise of Israel's descendants "as the sands of the sea" was stated to have been fulfilled in the past by literal Israel.

1 King 4.20 20 The people of Judah and Israel were as numerous as the sand on the seashore; they ate, they drank and they were happy.

If this can apply to Judah in OT times, then it certainly doesn't require that Israel apply to the myriads of Gentile believers!

Neither does the scattering of Israel across the world mean that Israel must become Gentile believers. On the contrary, Israel was scattered in the time of the Babylonian judgment, and yet was recovered *as literal Israel.* Judah had become embedded with members of all of the former tribes of Israel, thus representing "all Israel."

Finally, the limitation of faith in Israel to only a small remnant in NT times does not mean that the possibility of Israel's full national restoration has been discredited and eliminated. On the contrary, Israel was reduced to a mere remnant in the times of their OT judgments, and yet were restored to full nationality later.

Your arguments are not warranted by how the Bible itself uses these descriptions of Israel's experience. They remain literal Israel in all cases, without a necessary transition to Gentile believers.
 
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keras

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The problem with this is, the promise of Israel's descendants "as the sands of the sea" was stated to have been fulfilled in the past by literal Israel.

1 King 4.20 20 The people of Judah and Israel were as numerous as the sand on the seashore; they ate, they drank and they were happy.

If this can apply to Judah in OT times, then it certainly doesn't require that Israel apply to the myriads of Gentile believers!

Neither does the scattering of Israel across the world mean that Israel must become Gentile believers. On the contrary, Israel was scattered in the time of the Babylonian judgment, and yet was recovered *as literal Israel.* Judah had become embedded with members of all of the former tribes of Israel, thus representing "all Israel."

Finally, the limitation of faith in Israel to only a small remnant in NT times does not mean that the possibility of Israel's full national restoration has been discredited and eliminated. On the contrary, Israel was reduced to a mere remnant in the times of their OT judgments, and yet were restored to full nationality later.

Your arguments are not warranted by how the Bible itself uses these descriptions of Israel's experience. They remain literal Israel in all cases, without a necessary transition to Gentile believers.
That the Israelites were numerous in ancient times, does not preclude them from being very many today. It supports it!

Your determination on this issue is admirable, but sadly in error.
When Jacob was named Israel, it was because he was an overcomer for God. It follows that the name of Israel must apply to a person or peoples who Overcome for God. That is: who believe in God and accept His Son Jesus, overcoming the blandishments and deceptions of Satan.

The Jewish nation of Israel does not qualify for or has any right to use the name of Israel. They are the House of Judah, which was once a part of Israel, as Judah was Jacobs son too. But God separated then in King Rehoboam's time. The rejoining described in Ezekiel 37, remains unfulfilled.

The New Testament makes it clear that we Christians are the Israelites of God; people from every tribe, race, nation and language. The 7 Letters to the Church's in Revelation, all say there will be overcomers in each church type.

The virtual adulation of Jewish Israel by many Christians, is sadly misplaced. Over 20 Bible Prophesies tell how God will virtually wipe them out. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 11:15-16 & Ezekiel 21:1-7
 
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keras

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Ancient Israel did not do as the Lord had commanded them. They worshipped idols and rebelled against His Laws. Ezekiel 12:1 So the Lord sent them into exile – Ezekiel 12:3, for a decreed time period; Ezekiel 4:4-6 Before this happened, the Israelites had split into two kingdoms; then the House of Israel, was taken into exile by Assyria, and the House of Judah, deported by Babylon. Deuteronomy 4:27

What happened to them and the land?

Ezekiel 6:8-14 Among the nations, there will be those of you who have survived the sword and are scattered in foreign lands. They will remember Me while in exile and they will loath themselves for the evil they have done.

Remember the Lord, that is: become Christians.

You will know that My threats were not in vain. Justice will be done. Nahum 1:2-3

Cry in pain, because of your wickedness, people of Israel. You will die by sword, famine and plague. Black Death, civil wars, world wars, etc.

So, I will spend My wrath upon them. Your Land will become a desolation.

Travellers in the 1800’s were amazed at the awful conditions in the Middle East of desertification, still today; with water shortages and continuing strife.

In Ezekiel chapter 11, after the House of Israel had been exiled, Ezekiel is prophesying to the leaders of Judah. In verses 1 to 13, he says that Judah too, will be conquered. Then in verse 15, he mentions their brothers and kinsmen, [the House of Israel, then in Northern Assyria] to whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem say: They are separated far from the Lord, the land has been made over to us [Jews] to possess.

Ezekiel 11:16-44 Say therefore, When I dispersed them over the earth, I became their sanctuary in the countries where they have gone. I shall gather you from among the nations and I shall give the Land of Israel to you. Judah has come back, but in apostasy.

They will abolish all idols and vile practices. Not done yet.

I will give them a new heart and a new spirit. Wait for it!

They will keep My laws and I will be their God. Great will be the Day!



Go you Israelites and serve your idols! But in days to come I will punish you.

On My holy mountain in the Land, the whole
[peoples] of Israel will serve Me.

I will accept you, when I have brought you out of all the places where you were sent.

I will bring you into the Land which I promised to the forefathers.

You will remember your past and will hate yourselves for it.

You will know that I am the Lord when I deal with you, not as you really deserve, but as the honour of My holy Name demands.




But now, as we approach the end times, we see a Jewish restoration, but in unbelief. Zechariah 12:7 The Lord will free Judah first, for their greater glory. The State of Israel, now in a part of the holy Land, but they still reject their Messiah and now face another Judgement; the third swing of the Sword. Ezekiel 21:1-14

The forthcoming Day of the Lord’s wrath is also the judgement of Judah, as in:

Amos 2:4-5, Jer. 13:19, Zeph. 1:4-6, Obadiah 1:12-16, Isaiah 4:3-4, Matthew 21:41-43

Ezekiel 20:46-47 O man, turn toward the South, prophesy to the desert of the Negev. The Lord God says: I am about to kindle a fire in you. Its fiery flame will not be put out; everyone to the North will be scorched by it. Zephaniah 1:14-18

The Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, Revelation 6:12-17

Isaiah 63:4 I resolved on a Day of vengeance, the year for redeeming My own has come.
I stamped on peoples in My anger and their blood poured out on the ground.
Psalms 110



This event will depopulate most of the Middle East, leaving the way for His people; Israel: the descendants of Jacob, plus those grafted in, all at least nominally Christians still scattered around the world, to gather in the ‘wilderness’:

Ezekiel 20:34-38 By My strong arm and outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you were dispersed.

I shall confront you and bring you to judgement. Those who rebel will remain in the desert.




Who are the Israelites? Certainly, some must be ethnic descendants of the Patriarchs’, as in:-

Amos 9:8-9 I shall not totally destroy Jacobs posterity. I will shake Israel among the nations and not one pebble will fall to the ground.

Isaiah 14:1 The Lord will again show compassion for Jacob [the 12 tribes of Israel] and will once again make Israel His choice. He will resettle them on their native soil and aliens will join them.

Peoples from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Revelation 7:9



All faithful Christians have the wonderful promises of the New Testament:-

Acts 2:39 This promise is to you and your children, to all who are far away, to everyone whom the Lord may call.

Luke 12:32-40 Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has chosen to give you the Kingdom. Sell your possessions, give to charity. Provide for yourselves treasure [rewards] in Heaven.

Be ready for action. Be like a servant, ready to let your Master in as soon as He knocks.

Happy are those servants whom the Master finds awake when He comes. Truly, I tell you, He will seat you at the table and wait on you.

If it is midnight or before dawn and you are still awake, then great will be your reward.

Remember, if the householder had known when a thief would come, he would have stopped him.

So, be ready for the Son of Man will come when you least expect Him.


This refers to the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, not His Return, when He will be expected, as the armies of the Anti-Christ attack Jerusalem. Revelation 19:19
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses condensed.
 
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keras

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Postmillennial.
That the Christian peoples will gather and live in all of the holy Land BEFORE Jesus Returns and commences the Millennium, is well Prophesied and proved by Scriptures like Ezekiel 34:11-31, Isaiah 35, Psalms 107, Romans 9:24=26, +

The holy Land is special to God; Deuteronomy 11:11-12, Isaiah 29:14-21, and has never been fully occupied by God's people.
Isaiah 65:9 My chosen ones, who serve Me will inherit the Land.
Psalms 69:32-36....those who serve Him will live there.
Ezekiel 36:33-38 ....Then they will know I am their God.
 
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