I don't think the doctrine of imminence is Jesus's "return", but Jesus "coming" for the rapture/resurrection to take believers to heaven - to escape all the horrible things about to come upon the world.
and you skipped the first verse where Paul connected the rapture to the second coming. Paul also connected the rapture to the second coming in 1 Thessalonians 4, and 1 Corinthians 15. Paul did not teach a separate rapture from the resurrection of the dead, nor a rapture separate from the second coming of Jesus. The second coming, resurrection, and rapture, are all presented as happening in that order by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4. I don't know why pretribulationists don't note that.
To put 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 in other words what Paul said was, starting by explaining what he was talking about, which was the second coming and rapture, people had been saying that it could happen at any moment. Paul said don't be deceived, that won't happen until 2 conditions are met: Apostasy and revealing of Antichrist.. and then in verse 4 he goes on to explain what the revealing of Antichrist is, which is, as far as we know, connected to the Abomination of Desolation.
So you believe that the rapture/resurrection takes place at Jesus's "return" ? And that Jesus's return cannot happen until the two signs of the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin act ?
That's exactly what I believe. Paul said that day shall not come, until those things happen, and Paul said those things happen together, multiple times.
Nowhere, ever in any of Paul's epistles, does Paul ever teach a rapture separate from the second coming. It's always at the same time.
How much time is there between the man of sin revealed act - and Jesus's "return" to this earth, to stand on the mount of olives splitting it half ?
i.e.
man of sin revealed act.............................???????????????........................................Jesus's return to this earth
That's the "no man knows the day or the hour" part. See, Armageddon is a known date, or at least within 30 days depending on if you go with 1290 days from Daniel 12, or 1260 days from Revelation. Satan has an army prepared for Jesus to come to Armageddon. Satan knows the bible better than we do. Satan will know the abomination of Desolation exactly when it happens while most of us will have to think "was that it? Does he have to set up some statue or something later?" and there's all kinds of theories about holograms or AI or whatever right? Satan will know the exact moment the AoD takes place while we're perhaps wondering if that was it or not. So Satan will know the exact date that Armageddon happens. What Satan nor me, nor you, nor anyone but God the Father knows is when Jesus will actually return.
Remember. Jesus says that the days of tribulation will be cut short for the elect's sake. Everyone else goes through 42 months.
The elect do not.
so there's a 3.5 year window it can happen, it can happen a few days after the AoD for all we know (though likely it'll last longer than that).. the only limitations I can think of, is that there has to be at least 5 months for the 5th trumpet short of that 3.5 years, so. maybe up to 3 years after the AoD, but perhaps less. Could be 2 years, could be 1 year, I don't know. I just know that after the AoD, that's when you should expect redemption to come, that's when it's imminent.
That's when we'll probably all be praying maranatha every waking moment of every day we're alive no matter where we are in the wilderness in prison, wherever.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you have missed what Paul was trying to reassure the Thessalonians about. Paul was reassuring them that the Day of the Lord had not begun, and that they had not been left behind. Because earlier in 1Thesslaonians5:9-11, Paul tells them that they are not appointed unto the wrath that beigins when the Day of the Lord suddenly starts. That instead that they would be raptured out of the world.
Paul gave the Thessalonians the two things that must happen before the Day of the Lord suddenly starts. Neither had happened up to that point. So they could relax from thinking that they had been left behind.
Correct. and that is the real dispute between all eschatalogical positions.. is when does the wrath of God start.
I will use the biblical method and say: Revelation 6:17, and Revelation 14:19, which are 2 views of the same thing. Jesus in the clouds. the harvest done by Jesus is not put in the wrath of God. the harvest done by the angel after, is put in the winepress of the wrath of God.
Pretribulationists will say the entire 70th week is the wrath of God, even though the actions in the first 5 seals, are acts done by men, not God, and the 5th seal martyrs ask God how much longer before He judges the world, which is a hint to me that... that's not the wrath of God yet.
Post tribulationists will claim that the trumpets at least, if not both the trumpets and bowls, are NOT the wrath of God they're just "tribulation" and then say that the wrath of God is just armageddon.
But Revelation teaches the wrath of God in 3 places. Revelation 6:15-17, Revelation 14:18-20, and Revelation 15:1, 15:7-8 which identifies the vials specifically as the wrath of God, prior to Armageddon, because they set up Armageddon.
But I'm interested in understanding how your belief system handles this.
