What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

[rturner76]

I don't know about eschatological matters but I know that we will not know the date or the time and the lord will come like a thief in the night. We have no way to know when judgment will come.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, He will reside in the Temple on Mt Zion. People will go to Him for instruction. Isaiah 2:1-5
But all of the rest of people and animals in the Millennium, must be mortal. Proved by Isaiah 64:20-25

I think you meant Isaiah 65:20-25. Anyway, those verses don't say that there will not be raptured/resurrected saints in their incorruptible eternal life bodies on earth during that time as well.

 

[keras]

I think you meant Isaiah 65:20-25

Yes, Thank you.

Anyway, those verses don't say that there will not be raptured/resurrected saints in their incorruptible eternal life bodies on earth during that time as well.

Impossible. Don't you realize that immortal people are like the angels: Spiritual beings?, a
No one, not even Abraham, David, or Lazarus, or the many early Christian martyrs, any human, will have Eternal life bestowed on them until God sits in Judgment, Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 20:11-15 and the Book of Life is opened.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, Thank you.

Impossible. Don't you realize that immortal people are like the angels: Spiritual beings?, a
No one, not even Abraham, David, or Lazarus, or the many early Christian martyrs, any human, will have Eternal life bestowed on them until God sits in Judgment, Daniel 7:9-10, Revelation 20:11-15 and the Book of Life is opened.

Keras, yes there will be saints in their immortal everlasting bodies during the millennial reign of Christ. No-one gets resurrected to mortal bodies.

Daniel will be one of those saints in his immortal everlasting body during the 1000 years. The last verse in Daniel 12 is to Daniel specifically. He will be among the saints accompanying Jesus at Jesus's Return. I think of Daniel, Ezekiel, Paul, and John in particular as my friends and pray for them that day come soon.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

 

[keras]

Keras, yes there will be saints in their immortal everlasting bodies during the millennial reign of Christ. No-one gets resurrected to mortal bodies.

Daniel will be one of those saints in his immortal everlasting body during the 1000 years. The last verse in Daniel 12 is to Daniel specifically. He will be among the saints accompanying Jesus at Jesus's Return. I think of Daniel, Ezekiel, Paul, and John in particular as my friends and pray for them that day come soon.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

That you are wrong about there being immortals in the Millennium, is the 'end of days, is not and cannot be until the Millennium is over.
There ARE days in the Millennium. 360,000 of them
None of those ancient Patriarchs, or even Billy Graham, will be present in the Millennium. ONLY the martyrs killed during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns. Their names are Written in the Book of Life and immortality is theirs at the GWT Judgment.

You say; No one gets resurrected in their mortal bodies. Lazarus did, even Jesus did, so that is how those martyrs will be. Rev 20:4-6 plainly says they may die again; as Lazarus did.

Douggg, I have to strongly oppose you in this issue, because it is all tied in with your 'anytime rapture' belief. Before Jesus Returns.
The 'rapture to heaven' belief, asserts that people can receive immortality before Judgment. This idea is seriously wrong and contradicts much scripture. It also makes those who have fallen for that lie; complacent and unaware of what really will happen.

I hate to think of how people who fondly imagine they won't face any hard times, will respond: as terrifying disasters strike the world.

 

[Douggg]

That you are wrong about there being immortals in the Millennium, is the 'end of days, is not and cannot be until the Millennium is over.

The end of days in Daniel 12:13 is the end of days of the worst time in history of the nation of Israel, i.e. the great tribulation. Daniel 12 is about the time of the end and the abomination of desolation being setup and Jesus's return at the end of that period, 1335 days long.

You say; No one gets resurrected in their mortal bodies. Lazarus did, even Jesus did, so that is how those martyrs will be. Rev 20:4-6 plainly says they may die again; as Lazarus did.

says they "may" die again. Keras, it does not say that they (the martyred great tribulation saints) "may" nor "will" die again. It is the rest of the dead who may or may not experience the second death, the eternal death.

Douggg, I have to strongly oppose you in this issue, because it is all tied in with your 'anytime rapture' belief. Before Jesus Returns.
The 'rapture to heaven' belief, asserts that people can receive immortality before Judgment. This idea is seriously wrong and contradicts much scripture. It also makes those who have fallen for that lie; complacent and unaware of what really will happen.

There will be three resurrections (not counting the special one for two witnesses) which everyone fits into one (and only one) of those events, and one rapture event.

1. The rapture/resurrection of believers before the great tribulation begins. (1Thessalonians4:15-18, 1Thessalonians5:9-11)
2. The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints (Revelation 20:4-6)
3. The resurrection of the rest of the dead for the great white throne judgment after the millennium is over.

Where do you place event "1" ?

 

[keras]

The end of days in Daniel 12:13 is the end of days of the worst time in history of the nation of Israel, i.e. the great tribulation. Daniel 12 is about the time of the end and the abomination of desolation being setup and Jesus's return at the end of that period, 1335 days long.

The Last Day has to be the final day of God's Creation. Which will be at the end of the Millennium, THEN comes Eternity and the spiritual new Jerusalem.

says they "may" die again. Keras, it does not say that they (the martyred great tribulation saints) "may" nor "will" die again. It is the rest of the dead who may or may not experience the second death, the eternal death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. [the martyrs killed during the 42 month Satanic rule of the world]
Over them, the second death has no power......
Does your Bible say it differently?
Those martyrs will be resurrected back to mortality and that verse undeniably states the possibility/probability, that they will die again. Maybe they could live for the thousand years, but there is no precedent for that and they will already be adults when they were martyred.

1. The rapture/resurrection of believers before the great tribulation begins. (1Thessalonians4:15-18, 1Thessalonians5:9-11)

1/ Total unscriptural nonsense. Your verses prophecy no such thing.
2/ and 3/ will happen as described, 2/ at the glorious Return of Jesus, 3/ At the end of the Millennium.

 

[Douggg]

1/ Total unscriptural nonsense. Your verses prophecy no such thing.
2/ and 3/ will happen as described, 2/ at the glorious Return of Jesus, 3/ At the end of the Millennium.

Where do you place the events of Thessalonians4:15-18, 1Thessalonians5:9-11 in respect to the great tribulation?

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[keras]

Where do you place the events of Thessalonians4:15-18, 1Thessalonians5:9-11 in respect to the great tribulation?

Your Bible quotes are unrelated.

1 Thess 4:15-18, is after all the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are over. The 7th Bowl being the Battle of Armageddon.
2 Thess 5:9-11, Gods wrath is directed to the ungodly peoples, He provides PROTECTION for those faithful believers who call upon His Name.

 

[Douggg]

Your Bible quotes are unrelated.

1 Thess 4:15-18, is after all the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls are over. The 7th Bowl being the Battle of Armageddon.
2 Thess 5:9-11, Gods wrath is directed to the ungodly peoples, He provides PROTECTION for those faithful believers who call upon His Name.

(I think you meant to type 1Thess 5:9-11.)

They are both referring to the same event - the rapture (the living)/ the resurrection (of the dead) in Christ.

Which both translated living and the resurrected in Christ, receive their everlasting eternal life bodies at that time (which according to your timing takes place before the millennium begins - not after the millennium is over).

 

[keras]

(I think you meant to type 1Thess 5:9-11.)

They are both referring to the same event - the rapture (the living)/ the resurrection (of the dead) in Christ.

Which both translated living and the resurrected in Christ, receive their everlasting eternal life bodies at that time (which according to your timing takes place before the millennium begins - not after the millennium is over).

It is difficult discussing issues with you as you are so confused and intransigent.
I did mean 1 Thess 4:15-18, as that refers to the glorious Return of Jesus. No one is 'raptured and the only ones resurrected will be the GT martyrs.

My Biblically correct timing, is that immortality is only given at the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 THEN Eternity comes.

 

[Douggg]

It is difficult discussing issues with you as you are so confused and intransigent.
I did mean 1 Thess 4:15-18, as that refers to the glorious Return of Jesus. No one is 'raptured and the only ones resurrected will be the GT martyrs.

My Biblically correct timing, is that immortality is only given at the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 THEN Eternity comes.

Keras, Christians are not resurrected to die a physical death a second time. 1Corintinians15:42 is as clear as can be.

1Corinthinians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:


43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[keras]

Keras, Christians are not resurrected to die a physical death a second time.

Lazarus was, he was a believer in Jesus and he was very dead. Jesus raised him in the same way as He will for the GT martyrs.

! Corinthians 15 is mostly about what happens after the Millennium. Proved by verse 24, where Jesus hands the Kingdom back to God.

Your whole premise of resurrection to immortality, just cannot happen before the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

 

[Douggg]

Lazarus was, he was a believer in Jesus and he was very dead. Jesus raised him in the same way as He will for the GT martyrs.

Lazarus was unsaved at the time.

1 Corinthians 15 is mostly about what happens after the Millennium. Proved by verse 24, where Jesus hands the Kingdom back to God.

No, verse 24 proves no such thing. Verse 22, all in Christ. Verse 23, every man (in Christ) in his own order. First was Jesus, then the order is (1) Christians at His coming for the rapture/resurrection, (2) then the resurrected great tribulation saints at His second coming (3) then them for the great white throne judgment.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

 

[Douggg]

But his sister, Martha knew he would receive Eternal life on the Last Day. John 11:23-28 At the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.

Keras, Martha was expressing a general belief that God would someday bring the dead back to eternal life (and some to eternal damnation). At the time, Jesus had not gone to the cross and resurrected from the grave, with belief in his atonement for sins as the only Way to eternal life - so Lazarus was not a Christian at the time of his death.

Until proof of this is presented, you remain a false teacher and a promoter of fables.

You have been given scriptural verses that disprove your position, and you have now turned to making personal accusations - which is against the forum rules btw.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1Thessaonians 4:6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[keras]

so Lazarus was not a Christian at the time of his death.

Lazarus knew and believed Jesus was the Messiah. He was one of His followers, or why would Jesus be so concerned about him?
We can be sure he was a believer, as Jesus would have corrected Martha, if not. Lazarus will receive immortality when he stands before God, along with everyone who has ever lived, at the GWT Judgment AFTER the Millennium.

You have been given scriptural verses that disprove your position,

None of your scriptures say when immortality will be given. We know when from Revelation 20:11-17

I will oppose false teachings wherever I see it. You promote an 'Anytime rapture'. That idea cannot be correct as we are plainly told; We must endure until the end.

 

[Douggg]

Lazarus knew and believed Jesus was the Messiah.

The concept of the Messiah to the Jews was to be promised great King of Israel descended from David. Lazarus, nor any of the Jews at the time, understood the concept of the gospel of Salvation until after the resurrection and Jesus opening their minds to it (Luke 24:44-48) - because it was hidden from their understanding. Luke 18:31-34 below. As well as, hidden from Satan and his angels (the princes of this word) from understanding it. 1Corinthians2:7-8 below.

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34 And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

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1Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

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None of your scriptures say when immortality will be given.

Yes, they do.

1Thessalonians4:15-18 - the rapture/resurrection event - 1Thessalonians5:9-11 before the Day of the Lord begins, and the wrath of God. (Keras, when does the Day of the Lord begin in your opinion ?)

Revelation 20:4-6 - the resurrection for the martyred great tribulation saints, at the beginning of the thousand years.

Revelation 20:12-15 - the resurrection of the rest of the dead, some to eternal life, some to eternal damnation. After the destruction of this present world, after the thousand years are over. Revelation 20:11.

I will oppose false teachings wherever I see it. You promote an 'Anytime rapture'. That idea cannot be correct as we are plainly told; We must endure until the end.

Members of the forum can disagree regarding different eschatological views and issues and debate those according - but cannot be mean-spirited in doing so.

Also what member cannot do, according to the forum rules is accuse other members of being false prophets, non-Christians, false teachers, and the like, either directly nor indirectly.

 

[keras]

(Keras, when does the Day of the Lord begin in your opinion ?)

At the sudden and shocking high intensity flash from the sun, Isaiah 30:26a

1Thessalonians4:15-18 - the rapture/resurrection event - 1Thessalonians5:9-11 before the Day of the Lord begins, and the wrath of God.

1 Thess 4:15-18 refers to what will happen when Jesus Returns; AFTER the Great Tribulation
1 Thess 5:9-11, tells us that the Lord will protect His faithful people, through the time of His fiery wrath.

There is no so called 'rapture/resurrection event', in those Prophesies. You have made that up.

 

[Jamdoc]

I have no idea how people come to the mid tribulation viewpoint, the exact midpoint that is. I can see how people come to a pretrib view, or posttrib view, or even preterist or amillennial view even if I disagree with their interpretations of their proof verses,

but mid trib I don't get at all because I don't see anything in the bible indicating that the rapture could be timed at the abomination of desolation. They either call the entire 7 years the wrath of God and so they position themselves pretrib because we're not appointed to wrath etc, or they take the verse in Matthew 24 immediately after the tribulation or mistakenly think Paul was writing about the 7th trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15 (rather than what he was actually referring to, in Zechariah 9), or they think "this generation shall not pass" refers to the 1st century church because they don't take the verse in context of the fig tree parable and believe in preterism even though that requires burying your head in the sand or allegorizing everything to meaninglessness.....

but what text do mid trib get their position from? are they actually pre wrath and just mislabeled?

 

[keras]

The joke about the 'not appointed to wrath', is that it is purely assumption and wishful thinking to think that has to mean removal, a taking away from the wrath of God.
Many Prophesies tell us how the Lord will PROTECT his faithful people; THROIUGH that time of fiery wrath, which will only last for one day. The 3 men in the furnace is the prime example.

If the early Church martyrs were not taken out of their persecution and horrible deaths, why should we today be spared trials and testing? The wrath of God, is after all - directed at the ungodly peoples. A 'rapture to heaven', at anytime is never Prophesied and will not happen.