What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

[Jamdoc]

Your post is too confusing for me to respond to it.

The great tribulation will effect everyone on the earth. The rapture will take place before then.

Revelation 3:10

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

That's not referring to the great tribulation, your position holds that, but that's not what it's referring to. It's referring to the wrath of God.

We're not promised to be spared from persecution (in fact the opposite), we're promised not to be appointed to the wrath of God. there is a difference.

There's not a single sign in Matthew 24 that corresponds to the trumpets or vials as signs of His coming. There's signs that match the first 5 seals... in the same order mind you, and then the 6th seal matches the signs when He returns.

Great tribulation refers to the war on the saints. Part of you knows this, and part of you still wants to cling to the pretrib definition of what tribulation is.

I also want to just point out... why do pretribulationists always think they're the Church of Philadelphia?
If you apply the Church of Philadelphia as to be to the modern Church, can't the Church of Laodicea be applied too? Can't the Church of Smyrna?

What makes you better than the Church of Smyrna, who Jesus allowed to be taken to prison and martyred, only giving them encouragement to keep their faith unto death and they would receive a crown of life?

 

[Douggg]

Great tribulation refers to the war on the saints.

Your definition is wrong.

The great tribulation tests ALL who dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

Your definition is wrong.

The great tribulation tests ALL who dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I don't see the word tribulation in there at all.
it's something you read in, not what is read out. Not even the greek word matches the words Jesus uses in Matthew 24:21 or Revelation 2:22 that are translated to tribulation which is thlipsis or thlipsin, which is translated tribulation or affliction.
while Revelation 3:10 uses peirasmou which means temptation or testing or trial.

the promise to keep us from something parallels 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which is the promise that we are not appointed to wrath.

But great tribulation is not the wrath of God.

Remember, in Revelation 7 the saints are said to have come out of great tribulation, and the signs Jesus gives that happen immediately after the tribulation are at the 6th seal.
The great tribulation is
OVER
at that point.
before a single trumpet or vial.
before the world says the wrath of God has come.

Use the biblical definition, not your Pastor's.

 

[Douggg]

I don't see the word tribulation in there at all.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The point I was making regarding Revelation 3:10 is that the time of testing will come upon ALL of the inhabiters of the earth, not just Christians. Which is consistent with the great tribulation's unparalleled time of trouble that has never been seen by the world, nor ever will be seen by the world again once it is over.

The promise by Jesus to be kept from that time of testing in Revelation 3:10 on all who dwell upon the earth is the same as in Luke 21:34-36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Jamdoc]

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The point I was making regarding Revelation 3:10 is that the time of testing will come upon ALL of the inhabiters of the earth, not just Christians. Which is consistent with the great tribulation's unparalleled time of trouble that has never been seen by the world, nor ever will be seen by the world again once it is over.

The promise by Jesus to be kept from that time of testing in Revelation 3:10 on all who dwell upon the earth is the same as in Luke 21:34-36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Tribulation is persecution, the antichrist makes war against the saints, that's tribulation, and it ends by the 6th seal (or is cut short by it), and the parallel passage is Revelation 14&15, which have Jesus on the clouds, after the mark of the beast, but before the wrath of God, and Revelation 15 has the saints in heaven having overcome the mark of the beast.

It's two viewpoints of the same time period.

If the only answer anyone has to Revelation 7 and 15's timing is "flash forward" then I recommend people abandon that term.
Especially when it's consistent like it is.

 

[Douggg]

Tribulation is persecution,

One aspect of Tribulation can be persecution. But the definition of tribulation is - a state of great trouble or suffering:

The conditions caused by the trumpets and vials will cause a state of great trouble and suffering for them who dwell upon the earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

One aspect of Tribulation can be persecution. But the definition of tribulation is - a state of great trouble or suffering:

The conditions caused by the trumpets and vials will cause a state of great trouble and suffering for them who dwell upon the earth.

But John says the saints in Revelation 7 have come out of great tribulation.
before any trumpets or bowls.
the sign that Jesus says happens immediately after the tribulation (referring back to the great tribulation), is the 6th seal, before any ttrumpets or bowls.

Like I dunno how much harder I can beat this dead horse that you can't see.
You're clinging to a bad definition so hard just white knuckling even though the text tells you it's wrong.

It's like you know that recognizing this fact will undermine your eschatalogical position, so you won't let it go.

 

[Douggg]

But John says the saints in Revelation 7 have come out of great tribulation.
before any trumpets or bowls.
the sign that Jesus says happens immediately after the tribulation (referring back to the great tribulation), is the 6th seal, before any ttrumpets or bowls.

Revelation was recorded by John in segments of visual presentations in the order given to John. Those were later given chapter designations. The chapters in raw form are not a chronological timeline.

 

[Jamdoc]

Revelation was recorded by John in segments of visual presentations in the order given to John. Those were later given chapter designations. The chapters in raw form are not a chronological timeline.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I mean, the chapter argument holds no water. It's right there.

then Revelation 7

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

I mean the first clause in chapter 7 is connecting it with the previous things, this makes it Chronological after the 6th seal, between the 6th and 7th seal.

and note the angels who will harm the earth and the sea, you know, the targets of the trumpets and bowls.
but they're restrained from acting until the sealing of the 144,000.

and just in case you want to argue "well the great multitude THAT is a flash forward"

Revelation 7 again

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

There's no logical break in the flow of Chronology in this.

The first logical break in the flow of Chronology is Revelation 10, which begins

10 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

No connecting clause to put it in context.

Revelation 11

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

No connecting clause to put it in chronological context.

The next Chronological connecting point, which REESTABLISHES Chronology.. is later

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 10 and the first part of 11 are not part of the chronology like there's not 3.5 years between the 6th and 7th trumpet.

 

[keras]

I mean the first clause in chapter 7 is connecting it with the previous things, this makes it Chronological after the 6th seal, between the 6th and 7th seal.

I absolutely agree, Revelation 7 follows on from the worldwide disaster of the terrible Day of the wrath of God and the Lamb.

The Sixth Seal fulfills all the many clearly stated Prophesies of how the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land.
Then the faithful believers will gather and settle there. Isaiah 62:1-5 They ARE the great multitude of Revelation 7:9 and the 144k will be selected out from them. Revelation 14:1-5 Jesus will be revealed to His own, after the test by fire, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 and 1 Peter 4:12

 

[Jamdoc]

I absolutely agree, Revelation 7 follows on from the worldwide disaster of the terrible Day of the wrath of God and the Lamb.

The Sixth Seal fulfills all the many clearly stated Prophesies of how the Lord will clear and cleanse all of the holy Land.
Then the faithful believers will gather and settle there. Isaiah 62:1-5 They ARE the great multitude of Revelation 7:9 and the 144k will be selected out from them. Revelation 14:1-5 Jesus will be revealed to His own, after the test by fire, 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 and 1 Peter 4:12

and yet you blindly don't see Matthew 24:29 in the 6th seal, you insert something else in that actually has the opposite signs.

 

[keras]

and yet you blindly don't see Matthew 24:29 in the 6th seal, you insert something else in that actually has the opposite signs.

The Sixth Seal is not a part of the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
Matthew 24:29 prophesies things to happen at the Return of Jesus, not the Sixth Seal, which takes place years before then.
Proved by the moon being darkened at the Return but shining bright red at the Sixth Seal.

 

[Jamdoc]

The Sixth Seal is not a part of the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
Matthew 24:29 prophesies things to happen at the Return of Jesus, not the Sixth Seal, which takes place years before then.
Proved by the moon being darkened at the Return but shining bright red at the Sixth Seal.

Revelation 7 indicates that something prior to Revelation 7 was Great Tribulation.

and it's not bright red.
it's dark red. Have you never seen a lunar eclipse before?

 

[keras]

Revelation 7 indicates that something prior to Revelation 7 was Great Tribulation.

and it's not bright red.
it's dark red. Have you never seen a lunar eclipse before?

You are truly confused.
A total eclipse , that lasts for just a few minutes, is not what is Prophesied at the Sixth Seal or at the Return. Or a full moon, just above the horizon, darkened by the atmosphere. Something else , a known cosmic event, will happen to make these things literally happen.

Yes, The Sixth Seal WIIL be a great tribulation; a great ordeal for all the world. Many will die, but it will be this earth shaking event which will set the scene for all the rest of what is prophesied for the end times, to be fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24


Revelation 6


I mean, the chapter argument holds no water. It's right there.

then Revelation 7


I mean the first clause in chapter 7 is connecting it with the previous things, this makes it Chronological after the 6th seal, between the 6th and 7th seal.

and note the angels who will harm the earth and the sea, you know, the targets of the trumpets and bowls.
but they're restrained from acting until the sealing of the 144,000.

and just in case you want to argue "well the great multitude THAT is a flash forward"

Revelation 7 again


There's no logical break in the flow of Chronology in this.

The first logical break in the flow of Chronology is Revelation 10, which begins


No connecting clause to put it in context.

Revelation 11

No connecting clause to put it in chronological context.

The next Chronological connecting point, which REESTABLISHES Chronology.. is later



Revelation 10 and the first part of 11 are not part of the chronology like there's not 3.5 years between the 6th and 7th trumpet.

Revelation builds on the end times prophecies in the Tanach (old testament). Construct your timeline to fit the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

All of my charts begin with "day 1" and end with "day 2520".

day 1 ..................................................................................................................................................................................................................day 2520

 

[Jamdoc]

Sorry I'm just not graphically minded to be able to make charts visually.

 

[Douggg]

Sorry I'm just not graphically minded to be able to make charts visually.

I understand.


Maybe try this different approach, without making a chart(s) like I do, write down things down as a list. Start the list with day 1 of the 7 years and end the list with day 2520 (the last day of the 7 years). And then fill information from what you read in Revelation in between.

This is the basic to start with:


day 1 - confirmation of the covenant
....
....
....
....
....
day 2520 - Jesus returns.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Then start filling in like this: You don't have to complete it and show it in the forum, because it is going to take some time to reason through, and work on.

day 1 - confirmation of the covenant
........
.......
.......
.......

day 1260 - the two witnesses killed

day 1263.5 - the two witnesses come back to life
.......
......
......
.....
......

day 2520 - Jesus returns.

 

[Jamdoc]

I understand.


Maybe try this different approach, without making a chart(s) like I do, write down things down as a list. Start the list with day 1 of the 7 years and end the list with day 2520 (the last day of the 7 years). And then fill information from what you read in Revelation in between.

This is the basic to start with:


day 1 - confirmation of the covenant
....
....
....
....
....
day 2520 - Jesus returns.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Then start filling in like this: You don't have to complete it and show it in the forum, because it is going to take some time to reason through, and work on.

day 1 - confirmation of the covenant
........
.......
.......
.......

day 1260 - the two witnesses killed

day 1263.5 - the two witnesses come back to life
.......
......
......
.....
......

day 2520 - Jesus returns.

I don't count days.
For one we're not privvy to the day or the hour.
Jesus gave signs, not days.

 

[Douggg]

I don't count days.
For one we're not privvy to the day or the hour.
Jesus gave signs, not days.

I not suggesting that you count days. But incorporate the information in the end time prophecies to make a list of events based on that information.

1260 days in Revelation 11:3, 12:6
42 months in Revelation 11:2, 13:5
time/times/half time in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14
3 1/2 days in Revelation 11:9
1290 days in Daniel 12:11
1335th day in Daniel 12:12
2300 days in Daniel 8:14

 

[Jamdoc]

I mean I can break it down like

-Pre 70th week: Seals 1-4, Mystery Babylon forms as a result of the catastrophic upheaval the 4 seals caused, Antichrist rises up within Mystery Babylon until given a position of authority to be able to enter into, or confirm, international agreements/treaties/covenants
-70th week begins, first 1260 days are a false messianic period, the temple is built sacrifices resume in Jerusalem, 2 witnesses ministry begins
-Around the midpoint of the 70th week, the war in heaven, Satan cast down, Antichrist turns on Jerusalem, Jerusalem is invaded, Antichrist defiles the temple, declares himself God, Abomination of Desolation is set up.
-second 1260 days begin the Great Tribulation, 5th seal, mark of the beast
-Unknown date during the second 1260 days, 2 witnesses are killed, 3.5 days later, the 6th seal, resurrection of the 2 witnesses, and the dead in Christ, rapture of the living saints.
-7th seal (same day as the 6th), Jesus on Earth, descends on Mount of Olives, but then goes South to Idumea/Edom
-7 trumpets and 7 bowls, I do not know if they act in tandem or the bowls come after the trumpets some seem to be connected to each other, bare minimum time from the end of the 42 months: 5 months for the 5th trumpet, probably longer but I don't know how far back.
-After the 7th vial, the Capital of Mystery Babylon is nuked by the 10 Kings (only way that men can destroy a city in fire in one hour and Revelation 17 tells us its the 10 Kings that do it)
-Jesus returns from Edom, and is rejoined by the saints that were in heaven (Revelation 19), Battle of Armageddon.