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d taylor · Oct 28, 2025

Dikaioumenoi said:
I read Koine Greek relatively fluently and produce my own translations the majority of the time. This isn't about "choosing" a translation that supports a theology. It's about recognizing what the Greek verb form actually communicates. The verb in question -- γεγέννηται (gegennetai) -- is a perfect passive indicative. The perfect tense in Greek denotes a completed action with continuing results.

Grammatically, then, it means "has been born" or "has come to be born," with an emphasis on the abiding effect of that birth. Some older English versions, such as the KJV, use "is born" because in older English "is" can express a resultant state, roughly equivalent to "has been born." Modern English, however, distinguishes these more carefully, which is why most contemporary translations (NASB, ESV, CSB, etc.) render it "has been born," which is a more precise reflection of the perfect aspect.

So, ironically, it would be more accurate to say that you are choosing a translation that fits your theology. Even then, the issue isn't one of theological bias but of grammatical misunderstanding. The "is born" rendering was never intended to depict a present or ongoing action. It reflects the abiding condition of one who has already been born.

To read "is born" as referring only to a present or ongoing process, rather than a completed act with lasting results, is simply to misread the Greek. The grammar itself establishes that the birth precedes and results in faith, not vice versa.

That's precisely the issue, though. None of us should claim theology apart from grammar, because meaning is inseparable from language. You don't need to be a "Greek grammar theologian," but if the inspired text is written in Greek, then its grammar is how God chose to communicate truth.

So the question isn't what seems right to us, but what the text actually says. And in 1 John 5:1, the perfect indicative indicates a completed act of new birth with ongoing results, while the present participle describes the continuous activity of the one already born of God. That grammatical structure isn't a theological bias; it's simply how the language functions. I'm happy to show this from other passages if you wish.

As for your claim that "it does not take that to see that regeneration ... does not precede a persons belief," that is an assertion, not an argument. I have presented a grammatical argument grounded in the text itself. Moreover, Scripture consistently portrays regeneration as the necessary precondition of faith (cf. John 1:12-13; 3:3-8; 6:44, 65; Eph. 2:1-5; Acts 16:14). You can choose to argue that that isn't what those passages are saying, but that would require actually engaging with the grammar and context, not just asserting the contrary.

I'd ask in return: can you identify a single passage that explicitly teaches a person believes first and is born again after?

The relationship is logical, not necessarily chronological. The question is not whether regeneration and faith occur simultaneously in time (in human experience, they likely do), but whether one is the logical cause of the other. When John says πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων… ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ γεγέννηται (1 John 5:1), the grammar indicates that the believing one is characterized by belief precisely because he has been born of God. The new birth logically produces faith; it does not respond to it.

-

Along with 1000's of other people.

The Bible is clear a person does not have in them a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.” (regeneration) and then they take a drink of whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. (belief in Jesus)

Cosmic Charlie · Oct 28, 2025

This sounds modernist.

"Modernist" is relative.

This is the great Sufi Philosopher Ibn Al Arabi from about 800 years ago

Do not praise your own faith exclusively so that you disbelieve all the rest. If you do this you will miss much good. Nay, you will miss the whole truth of the matter. God, the Omniscient and the Omnipresent, cannot be confined to any one creed, for He says in the Quran, wheresoever ye turn, there is the face of Allah. Everybody praises what he knows. His God is his own creature, and in praising it, he praises himself. Which he would not do if he were just, for his dislike is based on ignorance.

So it sounds like Southside Bobby is just quoting what seems to be rather established Abrahamic monotheistic thought on the matter.

Always in His Presence · Oct 28, 2025

camille70 said:
Companies are still subsidizing employee healthcare and the government isn't, at least not at the same rates as before. That's what the whole shutdown is about. Eventually it will affect everyone tho if people drop coverage and/or hospitals are getting reimbursed at the same rates. Fewer people in the pool to offset costs.

We ware addressing the costs in total - subsidized and unsubsidized parts.

The country currently spends 1.7 Trillion dollars on Health care - Church and his friends are asking for 1.5 trillion more and saying it is for health care -

They say a picture is worth 1,000 words:

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61181

You really think we can bring medical up 1,5 trillion over the 1.48 trillion already being spent - where does the money come from?

MarkRohfrietsch · Oct 28, 2025

hopeforhappiness said:
"For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried"
My denomination in its local expression really dislikes the atonement and I have been wanting to present source documents to preachers to challenge them. (I have even shown them their own official catechism). Most of our preachers would simply find comfort and support for their liberal theology from this section. What they DON'T like is the Father giving His Son in order in anyway to assuage His anger at our rebellion.
I wish this foundational creed was stronger on Jesus dying for our SINS (our rebellion against God)
Is this a problem for the reformed. or can we just say that this creed was put together in response to the attacks on the person of Christ rather than His work?

The excerpt that you provided seems to be a bit more of a paraphrase than a translation; this is a bit closer to the original language; from Lutheran Service Book:

" who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried."

If it is their liberal theology that is your biggest concern (commendable), I wonder how they would view the Athanasius Creed; let's look at what it says...

35 For as the rational soul and flesh is one
man, so God and man is one Christ,
36 who suffered for our salvation,
descended into hell, rose again the
third day from the dead,
37 ascended into heaven, and is seated at
the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty, from whence He will
come to judge the living and the
dead.
38 At His coming all people will rise again
with their bodies and give an account
concerning their own deeds.
39 And those who have done good will
enter into eternal life, and those who
have done evil into eternal fire.
40 This is the catholic faith; whoever does
not believe it faithfully and firmly
cannot be saved.

I see liberalism as one of the greatest threats the Church is facing; pretty much secular universalism in some of the once steadfast denominations and synods.

All three Creeds are still held by the Catholic Church and the Confessional Lutheran Churches, the liberal Lutherans have excluded the Nicen Creed, and there are lots of "gender neutral" versions in circulation.

Even here at CF the standard for orthodox Christian belief has been the very Biblical Nicene Creed.

Remember that "Jolly old St. Nick" was at the council of Nicea along with Athanasias, and St. Nicholas was expelled for punching the heretic Arius in the mouth; he was readmitted at the recommendation of Athanasias, Arius was forced to confess and recant, which he did, but then reverted back to his heresy.

I love history!

Clare73 · Oct 28, 2025

Yarddog said:
We can't do that with President. Courts have stopped or tried to stop some of his illegal policies but they can't prosecute him.

Courts are able to rule on all law breaking.

Where are the Court rulings of such law breaking?

Yarddog said:
A few had to end because he was elected before they ended. He was convicted of 34 crimes and found guilty of sexual abuse.

It seems the voters had the last word on that unconvincing lawfare.

Don't you just love democracy?

RandyPNW · Oct 28, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, but as the Second Ecumenical Synod pointed out, “a thousand years” can basically mean “a very long time”, and the idea of Chiliasm also requires one to reject the idea of Christ presently being King, which I for one am not prepared to do.

Really? I've been a Premillennialist for a long time, and I've never heard that? Of course, you must be referring to the belief that Christ is ruling as "King" presently on the earth. No, Premillennialists do not believe that. Christ's Coming Kingdom is "near," but not yet "here." Perhaps we have some alignment in this regard?

The Liturgist said:
“For He shall reign forever and ever” - eternity extends into the past as well as the future, it should be noted.

I suspect the increase in Chiliasm in part resulted from the increased liberalism in the mainline Protestant denominations driving many people over to non-denominational churches and other churches that were influenced more by the premillenial dispensationalism of John Nelson Darby and by other figures outside of the mainstream of liturgical Christian thought.

It really depends on what you mean by "Liberalism." If you're speaking of the fragmentation of Catholic Scholasticism and Dogmatism, I agree--there came to be not just random or occasional dissatisfied participants, but eventually this dissatisfaction became a "tide" of protest.

The Reformation did bring a change in eschatological outlook. For example, Ribera and Lacunza set the path for a Futurism that anticipated a future Antichrist, and not the Pope. And the Dispensationalists followed after with their unique brand of Futurism. This is perhaps what led to the revival of Chiliasm?

The Liturgist said:
In the Methodist Church and several other mainline churches, an entire liturgical season used to exist, called Kingdomtide, which consisted of the second half of those Sundays following Pentecost (known as Whitsuntide or the season of Pentecost, the latter title being confusing, since historically the period between Pascha and Pentecost Sunday, also known as Whitsunday, was called the Pentecost), except for those Sundays following the Epiphany, which became Epiphanytide. I really like this division of the church year - indeed Methodist clergy would wear white vestments from Easter until Pentecost, red vestments from Pentecost until the start of Kingdomtide, and then switch to Green, then to violet for Advent, then to White until after the Epiphany, and then to green again until the violet of Lent.

I think I'd need the colors just to know what is what! But color-coding these festivals and observances I can see being valuable--in the past, particularly, because of the need for memory devices. But it can also serve the same kind of usefulness now, except that I see traditional Christianity appearing to "die out." It isn't the tradiiton that's the problem, but the compromise with the world, and the capitulation of Christian Civilization to the rest of the world and all of its religions.

Don't get me wrong. The organized denominations will continue to exist, and in large numbers. I just think that their vitality is dying out, turning the interest in Christ into an interest in religion and ethics.

The Liturgist said:
That’s a separate issue; one can be amillenial and support the State of Israel or premillenial and oppose them. I myself am rejoicing in the recent peace plan having been accomplished and desire peace, and a safe land for the Jews, and also for the Christians in the Middle East.

Yes. However, I'm not so optimistic over the long haul. The Muslims outnumber the Jews by far, and the Christians in that part of the world. And Islam does not have the same kind of "good fruit" that Christianity has. I see the Middle East being a constant area of trouble from now until Kingdom Come.

The Liturgist said:
However, I would note that a very large number of Jews from antiquity did convert to Christianity, so the idea that Israel did not convert is true only if we look at the entire Jewish population.

I agree. The Scriptures do indicate there will always be a remnant of Jewish believers.

The Liturgist said:
So while it is true that not all Jews converted, a great many did. And there are other Christians of partial Jewish descent in virtually all of the Orthodox churches and other churches of the Mediterranean, and elsewhere. Also even now, Jews convert to Christianity; one notable example being the British actor David Suchet, who became a devout Anglican, but who is descended from Jews from the Baltic region of Eastern Europe.

Of course. The prophecy of Israel's restoration, however, concerns the gathering of Jewish People into a nation that ultimately converts, as a nation, to Christianity.

A lot of people have taken issue with this claim, but I don't see how they can fail to recognize how many nations in history have adopted Christianity as their state religion? Why not the Jews at the end of history? The "first shall be last, and the last first."

Cosmic Charlie · Oct 28, 2025

What would you do if you had an adult child who was completely given over to Sloth/Acedia?

It's not every day a guy like me gets stopped and has his brain go "tilt". But that's want happened when I saw the word "acedia" which looks enough like "Acadia" to cause immediate confusion in the central processing function of my text input system.

I had to actually stop and look that word up in the nearest dictionary.

Thank you Gnar, I had no idea there was an English equivalent to the French "ennui". I just always used "ennui" to describe that emotional state.

TIL.

(My personal motto: Learn something new and make one person's life a little easier every day)

Mercy Shown · Oct 28, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Jesus speaking here:

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

you know that this is referring to the spirit. And you know that Jesus is the author and finisher our faith. So there’s no point in trying so hard to be right that one ends up disagreeing with the Bible.

secondly, it is correct that if we love God, we will keep his commands. But what is not true is that we keep his commands in order to love God. Loving God is the cause, and the result is obedience. But what are the commands of Christ? Most Sabbatarians immediately think it’s the 10 Commandments, but is it?

SabbathBlessings said:
Posting Scripture is not judging. That’s for God to do, helping people hopefully make better decisions based on all the Scripture is what Jesus tells us to do. James 5:20 Yes, everyone who accepts His free gift to overcome will be saved. Pro28:13 1 John1:9

you are correct in saying that posting scripture is not judging. But saying that most people who accept Christ free gift, do so, so they don’t have to overcome sin is a judgment.

SabbathBlessings said:
Sadly not everyone wants to

Jesus said whoever believes on me has eternal life already. Are you disagreeing with Christ? apostle Paul said that while we were at sinners, Christ died for us. Are you disagreeing with him also? ultimately it sounds like you’re putting the cart before the horse. The horse is Christ salvation to us. The cart is obedience.

SabbathBlessings said:
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 Foreveryone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have beendone in God.”
yes
Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat1:21, not in them Heb10:26-30

d taylor · Oct 28, 2025

Clare73 said:
Au contraire. . .that is precisely an example of counterfeit faith. . .it was a "faith" that did not save.
Read it again. . .they claimed to be doing it in Jesus' name (Mt 7:22-23), that's a statement of faith.

It has everything to do with an example of counterfeit faith which you deny. . .counterfeit faith is also the faith that falls away from the belief one once had. True saving faith does not fall away (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14). . .only counterfeit faith falls away.

-

They never claimed to have believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life, so there is no counterfeit faith.

Faith/belief in Jesus always gives the person God's free pernamnet gift of Eternal Life.

There is no such thing as counterfeit belief in Jesus for Eternal Life.

A person can say they believe Jesus existed and/or even believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins. But that is not what gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life. It is only belief in Jesus the person for Eternal Life

RocksInMyHead · Oct 28, 2025

ThatRobGuy said:
An originalist may say, when the 12th amendment was crafted, the people who crafted it had no intent of stopping a person from being president for more than two terms. So I think someone like a Clearance Thomas would rule in his favor on that, but not sure about the others.

You can also make an originalist argument that the intent was to prevent anyone who could not run for President from being Vice President (given that the VP prior to the 12th was the runner-up in the presidential race). And thus, any modifications to the rules for the Presidency (like term limits) would apply to the Vice Presidency as well.

That's the fun thing with "originalist" arguments - you can often twist them any way you want to because the people who actually wrote the original laws aren't around to clarify their intent.

ThatRobGuy said:
And then there's also the Speaker of the House in the succession plan, are there any limits on a former president ever running to be a House Rep?

Not that I'm aware of.

FAITH-IN-HIM · Oct 28, 2025

Yarddog said:
No yet, but he's working on it.

He may be considering breaking the law, but until he does, he is innocent and he's fulfilling his duties as an elected official.

If he breaks the law and Democrats regain Congress, they could impeach him. Otherwise, this speculation is purely theoretical.

The Liturgist · Oct 28, 2025

ArmyMatt said:
unfortunately for those folks, there are synods and Fathers that say you can condemn after death. because condemnation is for the salvation of everyone including the heretic.

it’s also because their understanding of apokatastasis was different.

Indeed, these are important points that should be made. Many of those who are opposed to these anathemas are under the misguided belief that an anathema is some kind of damnatory proclamation, as opposed to the last resort the church has to try to save someone from error, as well as saving others from their error.

What we should do, therefore, is use the facts of the Fifth Ecumenical Synod as a powerful statement against those like DBH who have gone full Monergist-Universalist. Also the council had the effect of uprooting the crypto-Nestorian movement connected with Ibas.

Indeed perhaps one way of bringing DBH et al to repentance would be to point out the connections between their views and those of Diodore of Tarsus. As far as I’m aware, the modern day Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East do not subscribe to even a mild form of Apokatastasis, but one would think that, on the basis of history, those who wanted to embrace such a belief who were converting to an Eastern church would join that denomination, rather than the Eastern Orthodox, where the risk of falling away has always been something we warn about, indeed in some of our oldest and most famous sixth century icons - the Ladder of Divine Ascent and especially Christ Pantocrator, at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai, which due to their remote location were able to survive the Iconoclast destruction in the eighth century caused by superstitious Byzantine generals assuming that Islamic military victory was due to iconoclasm rather than being the consequence of their own incompetence or inferior forces.

Hazelelponi · Oct 28, 2025

Landon Caeli said:
Kings.

Constitution.

Cosmic Charlie · Oct 28, 2025

HEY !

I got an idea !!!!

How about Putin stops the war, steps down and puts a real democratic process in place?

Give people some hope in the future.

sjastro · Oct 28, 2025

David Hine7 said:
What is the reciprocal of 30 miles per hour? It is 2 minutes per MILE. Your way would say 2 minutes. Do you still insist you are right??

Mercy Shown · Oct 28, 2025

Servus said:
Most Christian sabbath keeping is tied to the teachings of Ellen White from the 1830s, and the seventh-day adventist church. Their main teacher these days seems to be Doug Batchelor. And basically the way to be a sabbath keeper under that flag is to attend an sda church on saturday and follow what you're taught by them.

Then there's Messianic Judaism. Which is basically practicing Judaism while believing in Christ. So they keep the sabbath the way the Bible tells Jews to keep the sabbath.

I know several SDA’s and none of them keep the Sabbath the same way. One gentleman loves to watch the ball game and mow his lawn. The other family eats a huge dinner and sacks out afterwards for a snooze. Th older couple go bird watching and then have a late afternoon meal at their favorite dinner.

camille70 · Oct 28, 2025

In a heated call, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene chastises Republicans over their shutdown strategy

In a heated call, Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene chastises Republicans over their shutdown strategy

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene ripped into the shutdown strategy of her fellow Republicans and White House staff during a heated conference call on Tuesday.

www.aol.com

On Tuesday, Greene accused her party of letting the country down, according to a Republican source who was on the conference call. Greene later confirmed the comments herself, even adding more detail, in the latest sign of a rift between her and her party.

Greene has long been one of President Donald Trump's most vocal backers, but in recent weeks, she's bucked her party on a number of high-profile issues, including the administration’s strikes on Iran, the conflict in Gaza and its handling of files related to the Jeffrey Epstein case.

Not long after Tuesday's call ended, the Georgia Republican began posting on X and confirming reports that she had reamed out her party leadership and expressed frustration with the White House's political team.

"I said I have no respect for the House not being in session passing our bills and the President’s executive orders. And I demanded to know from Speaker Johnson what the Republican plan for healthcare is," she wrote.

Greene also argued that Republicans' shutdown strategy has angered the American people and hurt Trump’s popularity, according to the source on the call.

FAITH-IN-HIM · Oct 28, 2025

rebornfree said:
Looking from across the Pond, it seems that Trump is behaving like an autocrat, so I have some sympathy with the protesters. I find it a bit ironic that you threw off our king (not that I blame you for rejecting colonialism) to end up with a President who has much more power than any current monarch in a Western democracy. I'm not sure how much the protesters are resenting authority because of a sinful nature. I think it is more likely that they are protesting about what they see as an abuse of power in a democracy.

That is a very different issue from refusing to live under the Kingship of Christ. When we accept Jesus as our Saviour we do so with our free will. We are born again into a loving relationship with Him and have the guidance of the Holy Spirit, as well as hope of Eternal Life. I would not compare that to earthly political situations, as the author has done, but maybe I'm wrong.

To date, President Trump has not been proven to break any US laws in court in last 10 months. His deployment of the National Guard is under scrutiny, but the Supreme Court's decision is pending.

However, he has departed from many norms that have traditionally been valued by Americans. His tweet suggesting who should be prosecuted by the DOJ does not violate any laws, but it differs notably from the actions of previous American presidents. His insistence that American businesses share some profits with the government is also not illegal, yet it represents a significant shift in policy direction. He tends to pursue approaches that have not been taken by his predecessors.

President Trump often uses provocative language deliberately, and even some of his most dedicated supporters wish he would focus more on implementing policy than expressing opinions on social media.

camille70 · Oct 28, 2025

Always in His Presence said:
My question was: Why did health care rise 6% for private companies and 18% for Government run?

Here in the US

Companies are still subsidizing employee healthcare and the government isn't, at least not at the same rates as before. That's what the whole shutdown is about. Eventually it will affect everyone tho if people drop coverage and/or hospitals are getting reimbursed at the same rates. Fewer people in the pool to offset costs.

Yarddog · Oct 28, 2025

Clare73 said:
We have a remedy for law breakers. . .take them to Court, convict them of law breaking, and administer punishment.

We can't do that with President. Courts have stopped or tried to stop some of his illegal policies but they can't prosecute him.

Clare73 said:
Where are the convictions of these law breakers?

A few had to end because he was elected before they ended. He was convicted of 34 crimes and found guilty of sexual abuse.

Clare73 said:
The inaction of the objectors shows their claims to be nothing more than sounding brass and tinkling cymbal; i.e., noise.

Not quite. The no kings protests sound like a beautiful symphony.

Clare73 · Oct 28, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
And ignore what Jesus said all Scripture hangs on including the new command and the commandments that there are greater that Jesus said.

Seems, like the born-again would listen to all of His teachings and not just on one single verse, but I guess that is for him to sort out.

One verse is all you need when God in Jesus gives
the New Covenant command: "love one another as I have loved you" (Jn 13:34), which
supersedes the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: "do no harm," just as
the New Covenant sacrifice supersedes the Old Covenant sacrifices,
the New Covenant High Priest supersedes the Old Covenant High Priests and
the New Covenant promises are better.

It's a no-brainer. . .

Always in His Presence · Oct 28, 2025

Larniavc said:
It cost more for the American private corporation system than it does government systems in other countries.

My question was: Why did health care rise 6% for private companies and 18% for Government run?

Here in the US

Yttrium · Oct 28, 2025

David Hine7 said:
What is the reciprocal of 30 miles per hour? It is 2 minutes per MILE. Your way would say 2 minutes. Do you still insist you are right??

No, our way would say 2 minutes per mile. The inverse of distance over time is time over distance.

Mercy Shown · Oct 28, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Yes, sadly not everyone accepts His free gift because they love their sins, more than their love of Jesus to seek His help in overcoming. Proverbs 28:13 John3:19-21 Heb10:26-30

Jesus is not the help. He is the author and finisher of our faith. To judge like this post does is a violation of Christ’s commands. Everyone who accepts His free gift will be saved to the uttermost unless they turn and give it back.

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What would you do if you had an adult child who was completely given over to Sloth/Acedia?