Abraham1st said:

yes clare773, they had no faith, no belief.

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They had counterfeit faith, counterfeit belief (Mt 7:22), which is not true saving faith or belief (Mt 7:23).

Apple Sky said:

Where do you think the oceans come from ?

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Genesis 1:9
Where do you think they come from?

BelieveItOarKnot said:

You just don't get it keras.

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What we all can get; is that the world is due for a severe shakeup. God had to do it before and He used water.

What most fail to get: is how God will use fire this time.

ralliann said:

Be careful. I got a warning for similar statements about some dems.

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Isn’t Donald Trump constantly being referred to as a King on this forum? I can't imagine how calling Mamdani a communist is different than that.

So now we all saw that there are many teachers nowadays, and they teach very little importance, and that is a teaching we shod all accept and beware of.

Chesterton said:

I didn't really intend this thread to be about race, but okay. Anyway, I watched several minutes of the fist video from the 13 min. mark, and I have some problems with it, such as "correlation does not equal causation", and other things. I would watch all the videos, but the problem is, I may not focus on the parts you want me to focus on. I may focus on things you think are less important, or ignore things you think are important. Would want to tell me the points he makes that you might want to talk about?

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I also am not interested in doing a deep dive into race. I didn't have really have a point beyond expounding upon my earlier comments regarding how such images can affect whether people are for or against certain benefits and aid. There have been various studies that have supported this. You may have a good heart and be sympathetic, but that's not the case for everyone. It's not even so much about having a good heart, it's about the stories and narratives people hear about others and believe when they don't have personal relationships and lived experiences to counter those narratives. Everyone thinks their one friend of xyz race is the exception to all the negative rules, they don't ever question if the rule is true in the first place.

The other two videos were just informative.

The commentary around here recently has been tame, but In the past there has been a lot of racial tension on this forum, especially during the height of the BLM movement, the Obama years, Trump’s first term and anytime there were racially charged news stories. I'm also seeing negative comments on social media from semi high profile people referring to SNAP beneficiaries as ghetto (always code for Black in modern usage), and an attempt to weaponize social media to turn public opinion against poor people in need.

In addition, those videos give some background on our country's history, including history around issues such as chain migration, which was originally intended to keep the majority of new immigrants from white countries. (I think that was mentioned in the last video, if not it's another one from their series.) Also, it addresses some of the stereotypes and narratives around out of wedlock births, and how the difference in stats between races is based more on economics than race. As well as how jobs leaving and public transportation being limited have affected some communities more than others.

Many of the present day political clashes have some roots in not wanting to help certain segments of our society. That's why so many people from other countries don't understand why things such as universal healthcare is controversial here. Aside from money and profits, which are HUGE, certain segments of our society don't deem other segments as "deserving" so they don't want everyone to benefit equally.

Apple Sky said:

OK 'don't' fly & why they don't fly over the Antarctica. Fights can fly so far in but they can not fly all the the way across Antarctica.

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Of course they can, and have done many times.

Clare73 said:

If they fall, it's because their faith was counterfeit, it was not true saving faith, because true saving faith stands, and they did not stand. . .therefore, their faith was not true, saving faith, it was counterfeit.

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yes clare773, they had no faith, no belief.

GoldenBoy89 said:

Communism.

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Kings.

Carl Emerson said:

Perfectly said...

Thank you @Studyman and Paul.

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If you keep the Sabbath, it should be because your heart leads you to it.

Yttrium said:

It's not too late to make things worse! I'm sure we can push it to an extinction-level event if we try. Don't give up.

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@Nithavela buddy you changed your username didn't you. You little rascal.

Yttrium said:

Ho is distance divided by time (i.e. velocity) all divided by distance. The distance units cancel out, leaving only inverse time.

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That is abusing a maths principle. It's legitimate in some scenarious, but NOT in this situation, BECAUSE you are falsifying the situation. Use this equation:- oneMpc x C, divided by Ho = light years. Then divide by one billion to give the answers in BLY's, which will be around 13.8 BLY's.

Strawman. Scientists didn't say it would lead to humanity's demise. They said it would lead to more frequent major hurricanes. It has.

Or 'devastaing consequences'. It will.

Exclusive: ‘Devastating consequences’ now inevitable but emissions cuts still vital, says António Guterres in sole interview before Cop30

iluvatar5150 said:

I thought we were talking about Tulsa.

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Dallas is closer to comparable in size - it is also where quite a few NY'rs have moved to

iluvatar5150 said:

The quantity of top-flight restaurants, museums, and artistic companies in NYC is unrivaled outside of a handful of the largest cities in the world. Dallas may have some great stuff (I've never been, but I assume this is true), but NYC has more of it.

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It's a 3 hour flight DFW to JFK all those 'amenities' are entertainment - not a quality of life issue.

Think about it - the cost of living is 39% less - save those money hungry people 1.6 million a year - that's a whole lot of weekend or evening trips.

Studyman said:

Rom. 14: 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

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Perfectly said...

Thank you @Studyman and Paul.

Abraham1st said:

You deny all I show you clare73, and I can correct all you are able to ever speak about, as long as the Lord gives me the answers to answer you with.

True saving faith remains true, or it does fall away, that is why both chapters you quote here speak of believing in the promises of God because BY FAITH THEY STAND.

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If they fall, it's because their faith was counterfeit, it was not true saving faith, because true saving faith stands, because it is preserved by the Holy Spirit (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14), and they did not stand. . .therefore, their faith was not true saving faith preserved by the Holy Spirit, it was counterfeit faith.

Clare73 said:

Precisely. . .counterfeit faith is no faith (Mt 7:22-23), it's counterfeit, not real.

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Yes, it is NO FAITH, NEVER WAS REAL.

Clare73 said:

that is precisely an example of counterfeit faith. . .it was a "faith" that did not save.
Read it again. . .they claimed to be doing it in Jesus' name (Mt 7:22-23), that's a statement of faith.

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That is not a statement of faith, neither was it a faith, of any sort, and it 100 PERCENT was not a faith that FALLS AWAY.


clare73 said: It has everything to do with an example of counterfeit faith which you deny. . .counterfeit faith is also the faith that falls away from the belief one once had.



They never had a faith, it therefore cant fall away. (NO BELIEF WAS ONCE OR EVER HAD BY MANY FALSE PROPHET/WORKERS OF INIQUITYUNGODLINESS/FAITHLESSNESS.)

It's not too late to make things worse! I'm sure we can push it to an extinction-level event if we try. Don't give up.

Dikaioumenoi said:

No, the OP does not make any contention about temporal sequence. In fact, I specifically said in the OP that "this does not ... deny the simultaneous experience of these realities in human perception." The key point is that John's grammar expresses logical priority.


Correct, "when" is not the issue. John's point expresses a logical relationship, not a chronological sequence. The argument is not that believing "did not start in the past." The argument is that believing -- whenever it begins -- presupposes being born again as its logical cause. The one characterized as "the believing one" is so because he "has been born of God." That's what the grammar of the text is conveying.


Where have I argued for "believing after salvation"?

Your examples reflect a misunderstanding of the argument in the OP. Each of these verses uses aorists to describe events in experience or outward sequence, not gnomic statements employing a perfect passive indicative. The semantic core of the perfect tense in Greek denotes a completed past action with abiding results (think γέγραπται, "it is written..." -- literally, "has been written," emphasizing that the writing being quoted was completed in the past but continues to exist and remain relevant). This is distinct from a simple aorist, which typically narrates completed events without necessarily highlighting their effects.

Eph. 1:13 narrates the act of believing as completed by the time of sealing. This does not imply that the believer generated that ability independently. This text is fully consistent with the logical priority of sealing presupposing God enabling belief.

Rom. 10:13-15 addresses the outward hearing and calling of the gospel, not the internal, sovereign work of God producing faith. Again, fully consistent with the principle that those who believe do so because God has worked in them.

1 Cor. 1:21 emphasizes the effectiveness of God's wisdom in salvation. Belief is the channel through which salvation is experienced, yet this is still consistent with belief presupposing God's logically prior enabling work.

Nothing in these passages denies that regeneration underlies the believer's ability to respond. The logic of 1 John 5:1 (among other text we could go to as well) remains: faith does not originate independently but is God-given and effectual.

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Regardless of the lexical argument in this verse, the experience still ends up being chronological, even though it may seem simultaneous, for these reasons:
1. According to 1 Cor. 2:14-16, a person must first be spiritual (i.e. made spiritual by God) in order to understand the gospel enough to believe and obey it.
2. Eph. 2:5 implies that "dead in sin" means unbelieving state of mind (and heart), that God regenerates the person in that spiritually dead state, resulting in spiritual life, and ability to believe the gospel preached.
3. No one can decide to believe something they don't believe. They must first be convinced of the truth of the narrative before they will ever choose to believe it. Therefore, being convinced of the gospel, they are simply choosing to believe what they already believe, since they have been persuaded. The persuasion comes first (God regenerating), then the faith comes after (choosing to believe and obey).

Again, since the gospel is spiritually discerned, the only way a person can believe it is if God regenerates them by the indwelling Holy Spirit and enables them to believe in their heart, which they do because God has revealed it to them. God is the one who creates the spiritual ears to hear the gospel and believe.

With this understanding, not only is "has been born of God" logically the cause of "believes," but it is also chronologically prior. It may be true that chronology can't be extracted from the lexical argument of 1 Jn. 5:1, but contextually and hermeneutically, it can't be otherwise.

Fantine said:

One million doesn't buy much house.

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They should move out also:



Great Restaurants - good communities and 43% less expensive in cost of living.

SabbathBlessings said:

Still doesn't delete what Jesus said plainly.

God wrote a new covenant established on better promises Heb8:6 no Scripture says it is established on all brand new laws,

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Jesus called it "new" (Jn 13:34-35).

Clare73 said:

It has everything to do with an example of counterfeit faith which you deny. . .counterfeit faith is also the faith that falls away from the belief one once had. True saving faith does not fall away (2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14). . .only counterfeit faith falls away.

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You deny all I show you clare73, and I can correct all you are able to ever speak about, as long as the Lord gives me the answers to answer you with.


True saving faith remains true, or it does fall away, that is why both chapters you quote here speak of believing in the promises of God because BY FAITH THEY STAND.

Again we desire to be clothed upon and NOT FOUND NAKED, that is the earnest/CONVICTION of the Spirit, THAT WE WALK BY FAITH.



2 Corinthians 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight



The gospel of our salvation, we believe, to be sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, the earnest/CONVICTIO of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession.

Apostle Paul hearing of their faith says he always prays for them that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, MAY GIVE UNTO THEM THE SPURT OF WISDOM AND REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM, FOR THEIR EYES TO BE ENLIGHTENED.


Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints

Postvieww said:

Legalized prostitution, defund the police, shut down prisons, raise taxes by nine billion dollars, freeze the rent, free busing, government run grocery stores. Caught lying about his aunt being afraid to ride the subway, raising money for pro Hamas organization, threatened to arrest leader of Israel. How is this communist con man good for NY? Login to view embedded media

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His name isn’t Cuomo or Sliwa.

Abraham1st said:

Yes read it again with me clare73, or anyone struggling to understand clare73.

The emphasis and purpose here are FALSE PROPHETS. (THEY OF COURSE HAVE NO FAITH WHATSOEVER AND NEVER HAD ANY.)

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Precisely. . .counterfeit faith is no faith (Mt 7:22-23), it's counterfeit, not real.