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Lets have an open discussion on Heaven.

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I look at the martyrs under the altar as metaphorical as far as the imagery but I extrapolate that there are probably quite a few martyrs in heaven anyway. So maybe just a teaching about the special place that the martyrs have in God’s heart?

Well obviously, all martyrs are saved by virtue of being martyred, but at the same time, that does not mean their body was taken up into heaven. In some cases it might well have been, but in most cases, we have relics of their body, many of which are partially incorrupt, for example, the head of St. John the Baptist, and the whole idea is that God will rise them up at the Resurrection. The fact that the Theotokos, St. Elias and St. Moses were taken up bodily into Heaven is an exception, for extraordinary reasons - in the case of St. Elias and St. Moses, it appears to be largely so that they could attest to the deity and Messianic identity of Christ our God at the Transfiguration, whereas in the case of the Theotokos, the Orthodox believe she was taken up bodily because she, by virtue of giving birth to God the Son, and being the means by which Christ became incarnate, putting on our human nature to restore and glorify it, was physically closer and had a more intimate relationship with God than anyone else, for surely the most intimate relationship a man can have is with his mother - and God the Son and Word, the second person of the Trinity, who is fully God, in becoming man took on a human mother. Thus we say she was taken up bodily for this reason.

But none of this should be regarded as in any respect deprecating the glorious martyrs, such as St. Stephen the Protomartyr, St. Ignatius of Antioch, and many thousands and indeed millions of others, who won their salvaiton by confessing Christ before men at the cost of their own lives. Indeed there were so many martyrs following the Diocletian persecution that the early church required that all new altars of all the new churches being built after Christianity became legal in the Roman Empire, and became the state religion in Armenia, Edessa, Georgia and Ethiopia, contain the relics of martyrs or be built atop the grave of a martyr, a practice which continues in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, where the relics of a saint are always included in the Holy Table of the altar in a reliquary, and in the Eastern Orthodox church are sewn into the Antimension, the sacred altar cloth which is itself an altar and can be used to celebrate the liturgy even if a consecrated Holy Table is not available.
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Average consumer now carries $6,329 in credit card debt. 'People are stretched,' expert says

How to address the lean cows.
I see the bounty in the world that we live in currently, being exposed to the wake of the current domestic and geopolitical turbulence, clearly. I see the life cycle of fiat currencies running their courses; and the one that currently dominates the world economy, is hanging over our heads like the sword of Damocles. What do you not see clearly? I'm here to help.
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

What are natural consequences?
if I am told to not eat the cookie or I’ll be punished, And I do so I’m put in time out that is a constructed consequence. If I’m told not to drink poison, and I do dying would be a natural consequence from drinking the poison.
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No kings ... including Jesus?

I read the article several times but still couldn't grasp the author's point.

I am a born-again Christian, and Jesus is my only king—the King of kings, one day every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess to him. However, I don't expect Jesus to be an earthly king, as expecting that would be un-biblical.

Based on my observations over the past few days following the “no king” protest, it appears that individuals on the right have frequently used or referenced the phrase “Jesus is the King.” This phrase does not seem to be directed at sharing the Gospel or bring others to Christ; rather, it appears that the term “Jesus is King” is being invoked to make a political statement.

Christians should use their faith in daily life, but it should honor God rather than serve as a political statement.
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

It says what man esteems

Rom. 14: 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

When did man replace God? When did faith come by man or faith void the law Rom3:31 When can man remove God’s sanctification and blessing, verse please We are told we can’t Num 23:20

The covenant was ratified at the death of Jesus. Paul came after Jesus ratified His covenant. Had there been a change to one of God’s commandments Jesus would need to die all over again, but His sacrifice was once and for all Heb10:10. It’s one reason we need to be careful with Paul writings 2Peter3:16. Paul did not come to destroy God’s times and laws, that is not the spirit that comes from God He warned us about Dan7:25

The Curse of the Law was broken on the Cross.

Gal 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us..."
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

The crux of the issue is judgment. Those who preach keeping Sabbath continually judges this who do not. Those who do not keep Sabbath, just want to be left alone.

Paul made a very strong plea to Christians not to cause stumbling blocks over this matter. I encourage everyone to read Romans 14.
Blessings
even though Jesus said that we should pay more attention to the weightier matters of the law most Sabbatarians make Sabbath as the weightiest matter of the law when, in fact it’s not mentioned in the list Jesus gave.
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Lets have an open discussion on Heaven.

Early in the Church the Chiliast view was close, in time, to John the Revelator.

Indeed, but as the Second Ecumenical Synod pointed out, “a thousand years” can basically mean “a very long time”, and the idea of Chiliasm also requires one to reject the idea of Christ presently being King, which I for one am not prepared to do. “For He shall reign forever and ever” - eternity extends into the past as well as the future, it should be noted.

I suspect the increase in Chiliasm in part resulted from the increased liberalism in the mainline Protestant denominations driving many people over to non-denominational churches and other churches that were influenced more by the premillenial dispensationalism of John Nelson Darby and by other figures outside of the mainstream of liturgical Christian thought. In the Methodist Church and several other mainline churches, an entire liturgical season used to exist, called Kingdomtide, which consisted of the second half of those Sundays following Pentecost (known as Whitsuntide or the season of Pentecost, the latter title being confusing, since historically the period between Pascha and Pentecost Sunday, also known as Whitsunday, was called the Pentecost), except for those Sundays following the Epiphany, which became Epiphanytide. I really like this division of the church year - indeed Methodist clergy would wear white vestments from Easter until Pentecost, red vestments from Pentecost until the start of Kingdomtide, and then switch to Green, then to violet for Advent, then to White until after the Epiphany, and then to green again until the violet of Lent.

Though this doesn't make the Jewish People "good" overall, I do see evidence that Israel has tried to act in a more civilized "Christian" way with respect to the Middle East conflicts. I think it likely that Israel will return as a "nation of God" at Christ's coming. But no matter....

That’s a separate issue; one can be amillenial and support the State of Israel or premillenial and oppose them. I myself am rejoicing in the recent peace plan having been accomplished and desire peace, and a safe land for the Jews, and also for the Christians in the Middle East.

However, I would note that a very large number of Jews from antiquity did convert to Christianity, so the idea that Israel did not convert is true only if we look at the entire Jewish population. Enough converted, including the vast majority of the Ethiopian Jews (the Beta Israel), with the minority of Jews having to flee the country for Israel following the martyrdom of Emperor Haile Selassie at the hands of the Derg Communist Regime, which then, like many Communist regimes, began an anti-Semitic pogrom to take attention away from its immediate failures to provide those things which it promised.

Additionally, most of the Jews of India, who settled there following the establishment of commerce between Greece and India via two routes, overland through Syria and Mesopotamia to Basra, overland via the Persian Empire and Pakistan, a more dangerous and slower route due to Greco-Persian and later Roman-Sassianian conflicts, and a southerly route from what is now Aqaba on the Red Sea or another Red Sea port down to Socotra in Yemen, which historically was home to a Christian population until they were martyred entirely in the 12th or 13th century AD in the genocide of Tamerlane, to Kerala, which in any case was the main center of Jewish and later Christian activity in India.

However, the Jewish population dwindled to the point where only one synagogue remains, and with most of the Kochin Jews of Kerala migrating to Israel (the most noted family of which were the Sassoons, of whom the hairstylist Vidal Sassoon was a scion), this synagogue is mainly a museum as there is seldom a minyan (the quorum of ten Jews who have completed the Bar Mitzvah required for orthodox Rabinnical Jewish congregational prayer).

In addition to the Indian church being comprised of both descendants of Jews (some of whom are endogamous descendants of a shipwreck in the fourth century, who have their own parishes, in order to maintain their own baptismal records and marriage records, but who are full members of the various Mar Thoma denominations in the Malabar Coast, such as the Syro Malabar Catholic Church and the Syriac Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox), a substantial number of Antiochian Orthodox, Alexandrian Greek Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic, Melkite Greek Catholic, Chaldean Catholic and members of the Assyrian Church of the East are of Jewish descent - one will find Jewish last names and see ethnic features which connect this population with other groups descended from the Jews of antiquity, for example, the red-headed Syriac Orthodox Archbishop of Mosul, who I greatly admire. One will also see names which are derived from Jewish names, such as Zakka from Zacchaeus and Khoury, which means Kohen.

So while it is true that not all Jews converted, a great many did. And there are other Christians of partial Jewish descent in virtually all of the Orthodox churches and other churches of the Mediterranean, and elsewhere. Also even now, Jews convert to Christianity; one notable example being the British actor David Suchet, who became a devout Anglican, but who is descended from Jews from the Baltic region of Eastern Europe.
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Love codified in the Ten Commandments

You’re free to do whatever you wish.
And as the born again by the Holy Spirit of God, the focus will be on Jesus' new command of the New Covenant: "love one another as I have loved you" (Jn 13:33-34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: "do no harm."
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BUSTED - 12 False theories refuted:

I expect this:

Jesus is not revealed to all the world, as yet, so this must be before the Return.
The Son of Man will return at an hour when you do not expect him, Matthew 24:44.

You do not expect him to return before certain things have taken place.
Just saying
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Lets have an open discussion on Heaven.

Well the thing about those martyrs, is that since no prophecy is of any private exposition, according to 2 Peter 1:20, we don’t know to what extent Revelation is speaking about Heaven, or the World to Come, and to what extent it is typological or metaphorical and to what extent it is literal, except insofar as the early church did at the Council of Constantinople intend to exclude Chiliasm, after the fourth century fathers realized that such an interpretation was a misreading (in contrast to some 2nd century fathers such as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons who believed in it - but church fathers are individually not infallible, for example, there exists a very minor disagreement between St. Athanasius and St. Basil the Great over the pastoral care of military veterans, with most people likely supporting St. Athanasius, but some pacifists would likely support St. Basil, and since the issue is not formally resolved, it remains in the realm of theologoumemna (or what the Lutherans might call Adiaphora). Or on a more serious note, where a church father made actual errors, Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian expressed support for Apokatastasis.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I look at the martyrs under the altar as metaphorical as far as the imagery but I extrapolate that there are probably quite a few martyrs in heaven anyway. So maybe just a teaching about the special place that the martyrs have in God’s heart?
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The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

No immediate consequences to breaking the Sabbath. This can be said for the first four commandments that concern loving God. There is a reason why there are not immediate consequences for not loving God. Each and every one of us has a choice to make; whether we will follow God or not. The wages of sin is still death. Whether or not you receive judgment immediately or later is beside the point. If one thinks about it, there are no immediate consequences for any of the commandments if you're not caught.
  • Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
  • 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
  • John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
  • 1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Also...
  • 2 Peter 3:3-7 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
  • 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
No one knows how to observe the Sabbath. Scripture tells us how to keep the Sabbath.

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
  • Commanded to remember: Remember the Sabbath day...
  • Commanded to keep it holy: ...to keep it holy.
Notice the care taken to tell us to remember to keep it holy.
  • Remembrance; of keeping it, but also of creation (below).
  • Holy is how to keep it.
  • Commanded to work six days: Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work...
  • Commanded to keep the seventh day: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. (spoken with authority, as if commandments weren't already authoritative)
  • Why? Creation: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day...
  • As a result of which: The Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
  • "Turn away your foot," can be translated as
    • Do not travel
    • Return to the Sabbath
  • Do not do your own pleasure
  • Delight in the Sabbath
  • Honor Him
  • Not doing your own ways
  • Not finding your own pleasure
  • Not speaking your own words
Conclusion

The Sabbath: There is a long list of scripture supporting the keeping of the Sabbath (posted countless times on this forum), and only a couple verses that could possibly be taken out of context as negating the Sabbath. The supporting scripture for the Sabbath stands in stark contrast. I think I'll stick with the overwhelming evidence for the Sabbath. God did not change the Sabbath day, nor did He command us to stop observing it. Just as He never commanded us to go ahead and kill or commit adultery or lie.

Consequences: Scripture makes it plain that consequences are pending.

Keeping the Sabbath: The Bible gives easy guidelines for keeping the Sabbath, as I've shown.

What makes more sense? That God gave Ten commandments and all of them are still binding, or that God gave nine and one is no longer binding? That's a rhetorical question. The answer is obvious.
But you have not given explained how to keep it. The Pharisees claimed to keep it and accused of Jesus of being a Sabbath breaker. It’s an easy thing to do by claim but do you buy things on the Sabbath? Do you eat out on the Sabbath? Is it OK to swim on the Sabbath? Or do we simply let everyone’s conscience be their guide and thus Sabbath keeping is more of a platitude than a concrete concept Or do we simply let everyone’s conscience be their guide and thus Sabbath keeping is more of a platitude than a concrete concept.
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Let's Track the Economy (with objective empirical data?)

US consumer confidence slips to six-month low; worries over job availability rising

The Conference Board survey on Tuesday also confirmed what economists describe as a K-shaped economy, with confidence declining among consumers making an annual income of less than $75,000, but consumers earning more than $200,000 a year more upbeat. Economists argue that high-income households are keeping the economy afloat through robust consumer spending.

[Speaking of that K shape]

Average New Vehicle Price in the U.S. Breaks Through the $50,000 Barrier

Expensive EVs and luxury vehicles, among other factors, have driven up the average transaction price to $50,080 as of September 2025.

According to Kelley Blue Book, luxury vehicles and EVs are largely to blame for the higher prices. EVs made up 11.6 percent of the new vehicle market in the U.S. in September, an all-time high. Yet in September, the electric vehicle ATP was $58,124, a 3.5 percent increase from August.

As for luxury vehicles, there were more than 60 models with ATPs above $75,000. These high-priced models saw 94,000 sales last month, roughly 7.4 percent of the overall market; for contrast, last September, these expensive models made up 6.0 percent of overall sales.

[It's not so much that prices are rising as that the poors are not buying cars as much.]

Americans in ‘Crisis Mode’ as Consumer Stress Hits Five-Year High

The report says that bankruptcy inquiries surged 17 percent in the third quarter of the year, continuing an upward trend that began in late 2021. This helped to push the Consumer Stress Legal Index up 4.4 percent between June and September, capping off seven consecutive months of increases and reaching its highest level since March 2020.

Despite robust gross domestic product growth in the second quarter and early signs of an especially impressive corporate earnings season, there are concerns that the majority of Americans are missing out on the benefits of any economic expansion that may be occurring. Surveys charting consumer confidence continue to register declines, revealing widespread pessimism among households about their financial outlook and the economy as a whole.

While the official reading from the Labor Department on jobs growth in September has been delayed due to the ongoing government shutdown, private market data has pointed to another weak month for hiring in the U.S.
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I can't handle it, is there any way to avert this mentality?

I don't know if you are averse to people PMing you but I'm not sure the rest of the story is something I want to broadcast. :sigh:
Pm is good if you want to talk openly and privately
If it can help, I would be happy to share my story and hear yours
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Even if (more likely "when") Momdani becomes NYC Mayor studies show the richest New Yorkers will stay

Perhaps not Tulsa - but certainly not NY


Since 2019, over 150 financial firms—including major investment banks and asset managers—have relocated their headquarters from New York City to lower-cost states like Florida and Texas. The shift represents nearly $1 trillion in assets under management moving out of the city.

Key Firms That Have Left NYC

While many firms have not publicly disclosed their moves, reports highlight a broad trend among financial institutions:
  • Citadel: The hedge fund giant moved its headquarters from Chicago to Miami, but also shifted significant operations from NYC to Florida.
  • Carl Icahn’s Icahn Enterprises: Relocated to Florida, citing tax advantages.
  • AllianceBernstein: Moved its headquarters to Nashville, Tennessee.
  • Virtu Financial: Shifted some operations to Florida.
  • Moelis & Company: Opened a major office in Florida, expanding beyond NYC.

Why Are Firms Leaving?
Several factors are driving this exodus:
  • High taxes: New York’s corporate and personal tax rates are among the highest in the country.
  • Cost of living: NYC’s expensive housing and operational costs make other states more attractive.
  • Remote work flexibility: The pandemic normalized remote and hybrid work, allowing firms to decentralize.
  • Crime and quality of life concerns: Some executives cite safety and lifestyle issues as reasons for relocating.
Meanwhile, JP Morgan just moved into a brand new skyscraper in midtown. "Certainly not NY" indeed, lol. Whatever you say.
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B flat B♭

Of course they can, and have done many times.

AI Overview

You can fly over Antarctica, but it's not common for regular airlines due to a lack of infrastructure like landing strips and refueling stations, as well as significant logistical challenges. It's not a simple matter of illegality, but rather a question of practicality and safety in a remote and harsh environment.

  • Lack of infrastructure:
    Antarctica has very limited infrastructure, with virtually no commercial airports or refueling stops available for long-haul flights.

  • Safety concerns:
    The extreme weather conditions and vast, remote terrain make any emergency landings extremely dangerous and difficult to execute.

  • Logistical challenges:
    The remoteness means that getting aid or a replacement aircraft to a stranded plane would be a major and complex operation.
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No kings ... including Jesus?

True but the law is showing that he does not follow the law very well. His actions show that he believes that he is his own law. He shows disdain for Congress and the Courts. He acts as he wants to be an autocrat.
We have a remedy for law breakers. . .take them to Court, convict them of law breaking, and administer punishment.

Where are the convictions of these law breakers?

The inaction of the objectors shows their claims to be nothing more than sounding brass and tinkling cymbal; i.e., noise.
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Attitudes towards Tertullian and Origen

Are their early writings still influential?

The safe writings of Origen are those collected by the Cappadocians, in the Philocalia, with a C, as I noted in my prior post, but in the event you find it too long, I thought I would make that point. Also if anyone ever finds an intact copy of the Hexapla, that would be a very useful historical artifact; it is very sad we have apparently no surviving copies of the first ever parallel scripture reference text.
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BUSTED - 12 False theories refuted:

I expect this:
Isaiah 24:18b-23 The windows of the sky above are opened and earth’s foundations shake, it is convulsed and reels wildly. The earth lurches like a drunkard because the sins of its inhabitants weigh heavily upon it.
On that Day the Lord will punish in heaven the host of heaven and on earth, the rulers of the earth. They are put in a prison, punished over many years.
The moon will grow pale and the sun will hide its face in shame, for the Lord reigns on Mount Zion, in Jerusalem. He is revealed in His glory to the elders of His people.
Revelation 14:1
Jesus is not revealed to all the world, as yet, so this must be before the Return.
This passage describes the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. On that Day – the rulers and the sinners on earth will be punished. The sun and moon are darkened because of fires and volcanic eruptions caused by a CME sunstrike, that will affect the whole world. But note that in Isaiah 30:26, it is the Day that He saves His people, now we see that He reveals His glory to the leaders of Righteous Israel, who gather into the Land soon after this judgement. 2 Thessalonians 1:10

Isaiah 25:1-5 Lord, you are my God, I shall praise Your Name, for You have done great things, long planned and sure. You have turned cities into heaps of ruin and made destruction over the land. For this many a cruel nation now treat You with awe. You have subdued the ruthless enemy, their war cries die away.
Truly You have been a refuge for the poor and needy in their distress,
their shelter from the tempest and shade from the heat.

This next prophesied event: the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, will not destroy all of His enemies and sinners, but they will know that punishment has come upon them for their misdeeds. The poor and needy, is a metaphor for His people, Christian Israelites, until they are brought back and settled into all of the Holy Land. They are promised protection from the heat flash and storms of this CME that the Lord will use to punish His enemies.

Isaiah 25:9 On that Day, the people will say: See – this is our God, we have waited for Him and He will deliver us. This is the God for whom we have waited, let us rejoice and exult in His deliverance.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice with Him, you heavens, all bow down before Y’hovah. For He will avenge the blood of His people and take vengeance on is enemies. He will punish those who hate Him and cleanse His peoples Land.
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Attitudes towards Tertullian and Origen

Tertullian was both a heretic and a schismatic, in that the group he joined that was in schism, the Montanists, were clearly heretical, and the heretical nature of their beliefs was documented by St. Epiphanios of Cyprus (who was also no fan of Origen; indeed St. Epiphanios along with St. Jerome were among the main opponents of Origen in the fourth century, with the Cappadocians on the other hand compiling the Philocalia, a selection of the useful and profitable writings of Origen).

The specific error that led Tertullian to embrace Montanism was his belief that those who sinned after baptism could not be forgiven, if memory serves. But Montanism went beyond that, in that Montanus claimed to be the Paraclete (ironic that the man who coined the word Trinitas would join a sect the leader of which appropriated one of the primary titles of God the Holy Spirit). This is of course a real tragedy.

Now, on the main thrust of this thread, the following is an intellectual analysis only, for I am not disagreeing with anything anyone has said on this issue - in particular, I am not disagreeing with the posts made by @ArmyMatt - although I do regard Tertullian as a heretic in addition to a schismatic, based on the writings of St. Epiphanios of Salamis in the Panarion, but I don’t know that ArmyMatt would disagree with that asessment, and also being a schismatic is a major problem and if I recall, one early church father, I think it was St. Clement, declared schism to be worse than heresy, although on the other hand we have to be careful to not use such an argument as a justification for an Pietist toleration of theological error; Pietism and its Anglican cousin, Latitduinarianism, and the Broad Church movement within Anglicanism and the Episcopal Church, USA, and the other mainline Protestant churches, caused so much damage, and ultimately led to these churches being taken over by heretical elements and in some cases going from broad churches that tolerated heterodoxy to narrow churches that do not tolerate anything resembling traditional Christianity - many clergy with the UMC, ELCA, UCC, and ECUSA have made statements that are … extremely doctrinally questionable, to put it mildly. Indeed, herchurch, officially Ebeneezer Lutheran Church in San Francisco, is beyond heretical - its difficult to see how selling a “mother goddess rosary” and worshiping a mother goddess and a feminized trinity is anything other than the practice of a different religion (indeed, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware made the point in The Orthodox Way that the idea of worshipping a Mother and Daughter instead of a Father and Son would be entirely incompatible with the Orthodox faith).

Tertullian and Origen were respected members of the fourth century church, but Tertullian left and joined a heretical schismatic sect, whereas Origen on the other hand died in the peace of the church, and was greatly respected and admired by many, and indeed still is. Now Metropolitan Kallistos Ware claimed Origen was anathematized for his belief in Apokatastasis but that St. Gregory of Nyssa wasn’t, perhaps because St. Gregory was St. Basil’s younger brother; if this is true, it would be most unfortunate, but the real problem with Origen is in some of his other writings, since we have also found works of St. Isaac the Syrian, who, like other members of the Church of the East at the time, adopted a view that Hell was temporary (see also The Book of the Bee by Mar Solomon of Basra).

The real problematic teachings of Origen rather are the speculations he engaged in, such as his speculation about reincarnation or metempsychosis, which was criticized by St. Epiphanios.

However, many Orthodox Christians are uncomfortable with the anathemas against Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia, since Origen died in the peace of the church, and anathematizing him, and Theodore of Mopsuestia, who was the best friend of St. John Chrysostom, on the belief that would facilitate reunion with the Oriental Orthodox (which perhaps it would have had it not been for the subsequent violent persecution of them supposedly initiated by Justinian, the same man who wrote the Three Chapters which were then certified by the Second Council of Constantinople), because there existed a school of thought that Nestorius was enabled in his heresy by some of the more unusual ideas of Theodore of Mopsuestia - the difference of course being that Theodore of Mopsuestia did not use violence to persecute people who used the term Theotokos, but apparently he did object to the term, whereas St. John Chrysostom supported it. However, both men died in the peace of the church, whereas Nestorius was an heresiarch, and Tertullian was a member of a heretical schismatic sect.

Thus, like with Roman Catholics, there are Orthodox Christians who are uncomfortable with the anathema against Origen, or some aspects of the Three Chapters, while agreeing with the theological work of the Fifth Ecumenical Synod, namely its rejection of all forms of Monergism (such as Universalism, Pelagianism and, by extension, contemporary Calvinism). There were also other heretics such as Diodore of Tarsus, and those who arguably delayed the removal of Nestorius, such as John of Antioch, who were not anathematized, and many other important church fathers who made errors, such as those in the first century who supported Chiliasm, which was officially rejected by the Second Ecumenical Synod in Constantinople, who we still venerate, such as St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus, because individually, church fathers are not infallible. So there are Orthodox who are uncomfortable with the idea of a post-mortem anathema.

Conversely, in the case of Origen, I wouldn’t say he should be venerated either, and we can definitely say the Origenist sect as documented by St. Epiphanios in the fourth century was causing severe problems, and indeed, in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, it is because of his apparent support of the Origenists that Lucifer of Cagliari is only locally venerated by the Sardinians, but has never been regarded (to my knowledge) as a saint elsewhere in the church (and nowadays that would be rather awkward since many people believe Lucifer is the proper name of the devil, when it is rather a Latinized Hellenic translation of the phrase “Day star” in the Old Testament used to refer to the Morning Star in the context of Nebuchadnezzar, and typologically, the devil as well, because both are fallen, but there was a second century martyr named Lucifer who is properly regarded as a glorified saint, and who happened to have what would prove to be a very unfortunate name. These associations are very powerful and it creates a bit of a conundrum with regards to how to ensure that the martyr by that name, and certain other early Christians who had that name, are properly venerated, before that name became associated with the devil, without appearing to in any respect venerate the devil regardless of what name is in use, because obviously we don’t want to do that.

Additionally, the Universalists in the Orthodox Church who are openly defying the Fifth Ecumenical Council, such as Dr. David Bentley Hart, should be rebuked on the basis of that council’s decisions, and in a sense, even though it might be uncomfortable, the anathema against Origen is at the very least theologically edifying, since Origen was a major proponent of full monergist Universalist apokatastasis (which was also according to some believed in by Diodore of Tarsus).

This last bit, the association between proto-Nestorians and Monergism, and indeed post-Nestorian members of the Church of the East and Apokatastasis, I would argue should not come as a surprise, in that Monergism seems to be a requirement of true Nestorianism, in that the Nestorians, in saying that Christ consists of two persons united by a single will, are engaged in a Monothelite and Monergist system wherein it is this single divine will that provides Christological unity, which is obviously so problematic as to compromise the doctrine of the Incarnation completely.

If we embrace the Christology of St. Cyril of Alexandria and of the hymn Ho Monogenes, which was reflected also at the Council of Chalcedon, this undermines both monergism and monothelitism, since obviously if Christ our True God is fully God and fully man without change, confusion, separation or division, then with regards to His will he must be fully divine and fully human, and Monothelitism introduces confusion, and indeed it was disagreement over this issue that caused the schism between the Syriac Orthodox and the Maronites, who it is widely believed embraced Monothelitism, and also between the Copts and those Egyptians who embraced Monothelitism before it was properly rejected by the Sixth Ecumenical Council, which also anathematized Pope Honorius I under a post-mortem condition similar to the anathema of Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia.

Thus, I would expect more Roman Catholics might be uncomfortable with these post-mortem anathemas than Orthodox, because of the idea of a Pope being anathematized contradicting the extreme Ultra-montanism that we have.

Thus - with regards to Origen, I would say only those writings of his contained in the Philocalia with a C, compiled by the Cappadocians, not to be confused with the later Philokalia, a compilation of texts on monasticism, mystical theology and hesychasm by the 18th century church fathers St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite and St. Macarius of Corinth, should be used, or the Hexapla, if we are ever lucky enough to find an intact copy of it - the Hexapla being the first known parallel Bible and one of the books of antiquity the loss of which seems most unfortunate in terms of outlining textual variants with the Old Testament. But we should remind people why he was anathematized, and more importantly, whether they agree with that anathema or not, why they should not embrace Universalism, because it is a form of monergism, and the Fifth Ecumenical Synod in Constantinople plainly declared Monergism was an error, and the fact that some saints we venerate such as St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac the Syrian subscribed to the idea of Monergism does not make it theologically correct.

Lastly, please pray for me as I have been recovering from severe food poisoning, and I am praying for all of you, my brethren.
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Karl Barth's doctrine of repentance


Karl Barth, one of the major theologians of the 20th century.

I have read some of his work, but I have not read Church Dogmatics, so I am not knowledgeable enough to reply to the OP's query.
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