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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

NASA reports discovery of signs of ancient life on Mars



Perseverance rover turned up biosignatures of what could be ancient microbial life on Mars.

More work is needed to bring stronger confirmation, but this is the best evidence yet of extraterrestrial life.
I think they will find signs of previous life on Mars. In the before times of the long long ago Mars was a very different planet.
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A conversation about unity.

Indeed, no one is disputing that. Anyone who claimed the disciples were perfect didn’t read the New Testament.

That said it should be pointed out that our Lord was using a rhetorical device there, since He was perfect - I periodically come across people who try to use that verse to disprove the Incarnation or the Trinity.

Whoops... you wont hear me doing that !!!
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Judge's 'promise' let career criminal walk free to butcher Ukrainian refugee after his MOM said he should be locked up

You tell me - should he have been jailed for 9+ months for the bogus phone call in January? Should he have been jailed for more than 12 years for the stuff he did when he was 22-23? What is it that you think should have been done other than "something"?
Yes, by the time he committed those crimes he had shown himself to be a very bad man. At that point he should have gotten 50 years.
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A conversation about unity.

I see, so the next time one of your friends or loved ones says, "please pray for me" you'll say "get away from me Satan!
Don't be daft.
Jesus tells us to pray. He even told us how, and what to pray. He didn't say, "ask Mary (or anyone else who has died) to pray for you."
When I pray for someone, I talk directly to God. I don't say "dear Mary, please pray for me."
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Judge's 'promise' let career criminal walk free to butcher Ukrainian refugee after his MOM said he should be locked up

Nobody has argued that. You guys just keep refusing to read our comments and engage with what we've written, instead, apparently, preferring to infer whatever most effectively fuels your sanctimony.
No we are hearing them loud and clear. A known mentally ill violent felon was NOT kept in prison and NOT sent to a mental health ward. He should not have been loose. We DON'T care how long ago he was set free.

You aee totally ignoring the facts yourself in your own sanctimonious statements. A young woman is DEAD, and you want to defend a justice system that set him free and kept him free.
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I hold a view similar to the Open View of God.

This is the point I am making: there are things that God has placed in our hands. He can not know what our choice will be until we make it.
He can and he does.

I'm sorry your view of God is so small.
This is why God has emotions; He reacts to our choice.
He said that his creation was very good even before he had commanded Adam not to eat the fruit. I.O.W he was very pleased with us before we had even done anything. Paul says that God chose us, in him (Jesus) before the creation of the world. He knew and loved us before he made us.
God is not a reflex or something that just reacts to stimuli.
Because ChatGPT can explain the science of time. Even you said:
ChatGPT is a man made thing and can "know" only what it has been programmed to "know".
That has nothing to do with God being the Alpha and Omega - One who knows, and sees, the beginning and the end.
What I am saying is similar to your view that He is outside of time.
As he is outside time and knows the beginning and the end, it shouldn't be too hard to realise that he knows all things. Therefore he has perfect foreknowledge.
Time is a reality. God must experience time to have a genuine relationship with man.
In Jesus, God came into our world, born as one of us.
But being outside of time, able to move forward and backward in time.
Where do you get the idea that God "moves backwards in time"?
Thus knowing what will happen.
So he does have perfect foreknowledge, then.
The following is just a thought: It is interesting that the scripture states that even the son does not know the hour of His own return.
He didn't know the hour when he was speaking to his disciples.
Paul says that when Jesus was born he "emptied himself". He did not hold onto all his divine power; he became one of us. Jesus was always God but was also 100% human.
Jesus, as the human-like hand of God, may wish to interact with man "in time", thus not be exposed to the same foreknowledge as the Father,
No, Jesus is, and was, the eternal Word; who was God and was with God in the beginning, John 1:1-3, John 17:5. All things were created through Jesus.
There are instances in the OT where people met an "angel of the Lord" and commentators believe that that was a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus. Eg when 3 men were thrown into a fiery pit, the next day the king saw 4 people and the 4th one "looked like a god."

Jesus is not "the human hand of God"; he always was, and is, God.
God knew us completely because he made us, Psalm 139. But in Jesus, God experienced time, suffering, pain, anxiety and humanity for himself.
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Poland Just Destroyed Russian Drones, Escalating Ukraine War-Better Step up Our Mission Works: Tomorrow is Not Promised; Missionary Thoughts on This?

Thank you for this very beautiful and well thought out answer!

Sometimes it seems that only sorrows can bring hardened hearts to break open and let in the light through the cracks
Thanks for the kind words. Yes, we can only pray that hearts are not hardened. Many are having their love grow cold but I think too that many will get right with God. I recently have been thinking about the process described in Romans 5:3-5 to get the love of God shed abroad in our hearts. It is not just having tribulation, but instead how one handles it. If one does not accept the process but instead gets bitter, it seems possible the progression works in reverse, that likely even hate can be shed in our hearts. I say this because lots of people have some serious tribulations but without embracing them correctly, there is no love at the end.
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On a Missionary Journey

We read in Acts 13:2 that the Holy Spirit set apart Barnabas and Saul (Paul) for the work to which he had called them. And so Paul and Barnabas began their missionary journey together, going from one city to another, proclaiming the word of God to the people. But they faced much persecution on their journey, yet they remained faithful to God and to their calling.

“In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks. But the Jews who disbelieved stirred up the minds of the Gentiles and embittered them against the brethren. Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; and some sided with the Jews, and some with the apostles. And when an attempt was made by both the Gentiles and the Jews with their rulers, to mistreat and to stone them, they became aware of it and fled to the cities of Lycaonia, Lystra and Derbe, and the surrounding region; and there they continued to preach the gospel.” (Acts 14:1-7 NASB1995)

I have always loved this story. Why? Here they were serving the Lord, doing what God had called them to do, preaching the truth of the gospel of Christ to the people. But then they faced opposition in the form of the Jews, who disbelieved in Christ, stirring up the minds of the Gentiles, embittering them against the two missionaries, Paul and Barnabas. But then it says, “Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord…” And this is what I love about it! They did not let the opposition stand in the way of them continuing to preach the truth of the gospel.

For Satan just loves to pull us down through opposition and false accusations against our character which produce persecution against us. If he can get us to be attacked and to have people turn against us, especially people who once supported and encouraged us, then he has accomplished his goal of attempting to silence us. And if we give in, and so we give up, and so we retreat, then he has won that battle and accomplished his purpose. So, we must not let him get the best of us, but we must resist him, and trust God.

Now the people were divided, and some sided with the Jews, and some with the apostles. And we should expect that not everyone is going to be on the same side with us, not even all who profess faith in Jesus Christ. But this is provided that we are on the side of Christ and in agreement with his teachings. Yet not everyone is going to agree with what we are teaching, for not everyone is united with Christ in thought and word and deed. And there are many varied interpretations of what the Scriptures teach, as well.

And sometimes, but not always, when we are faced with opposition, particularly very strong opposition, the Lord may lead us to leave that place and to go somewhere else where our words, which come from him, will be received by the people, and where we will be allowed to continue to share the truth of the gospel of Christ with the people. For the goal is to keep giving out the Word of the Lord to the people, and so we need to be where we have that opportunity to do so. But that won’t be for forever.

But what is most critical here is that we make certain that the gospel message we are sharing is the same one taught by Jesus and by his New Testament apostles, as studied in their appropriate and full context. For many liars and deceivers exist who call themselves “Christians” and “ministers of the gospel” who are teaching Satan’s lies to the people. And many people are following the lies, while on their way to hell, on the promise of forgiveness of all sins and of heaven as their eternal destiny.

But Jesus Christ taught that to come to him we must deny self, take up our cross daily (die daily to sin), and follow (obey) him. For if we hold on to living in sin and for self, we will lose our lives for eternity. But if we deny self, die daily to sin, by the Spirit, and we walk in obedience to our Lord and to his commands, in his power, then we have eternal life with God. For not everyone who calls him “Lord” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one DOING (obeying) the will of God (see Luke 9:23-26; Matthew 7:21-23).

Gospel:[Matthew 7:13-14,21-23; Luke 9:23-26; John 10:27-30; Acts 26:18; Romans 2:5-10; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:1-14; 1 Corinthians 10:1-22; Galatians 5:16-24; Ephesians 2:8-10; Ephesians 4:17-32; Ephesians 5:3-6; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 3:1-19; Hebrews 12:1-2; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 1:1-10; 1 John 2:3-6; 1 John 3:4-10; Revelation 2:1-29; Revelation 3:1-22]

As the Deer

By Martin J. Nystrom
Based off Psalm 42:1


As the deer panteth for the water
So my soul longeth after You
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship You

You alone are my strength, my shield
To You alone may my spirit yield
You alone are my heart's desire
And I long to worship You

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On a Missionary Journey
An Original Work / September 11, 2025
Christ’s Free Servant, Sue J Love
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Liberal media accused of covering up Ukrainian girl's brutal murder in Dem-led city as video explodes online

I never made the claim that is was. I’m saying it’s a possible motive.
We have now learned that he said "I got that white girl, I got that white girl."

So.it sure sounds like a race component.
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I hold a view similar to the Open View of God.

He has given us genuine free choices.
He didn't make Adam eat the fruit.
He hasn't dictated every moment of our lives. The Bible doesn't tell us where we should live, what jobs we should have, where we should go to church, whether we should get married and have children, and so on. God doesn't plan those things; he lets us choose.
This is the point I am making: there are things that God has placed in our hands. He can not know what our choice will be until we make it. This is why God has emotions; He reacts to our choice.

Because of our free choices, God can say:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Why are you looking at chatgpt rather than Scripture?
Because ChatGPT can explain the science of time. Even you said:

He is outside time and sees all things. He is the Alpha and the Omega.

What I am saying is similar to your view that He is outside of time. But I see it this way:

Time is a reality. God must experience time to have a genuine relationship with man. But being outside of time, able to move forward and backward in time. Thus knowing what will happen. Scientifically creating time in such a way.

The following is just a thought: It is interesting that the scripture states that even the son does not know the hour of His own return. Jesus, as the human-like hand of God, may wish to interact with man "in time", thus not be exposed to the same foreknowledge as the Father, so He can experience the emotion of His bride, the church. The Father's foreknowledge may be perfect. He can share with the Son, what He wills.
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A conversation about unity.

1 Tim implies the existence of an office of overseer or bishop. This may be a nit, but it doesn't speak of this as requirements for ordination, since it doesn't speak of ordination at that point. Of course it's reasonable to think that the laying of hands or ordination mentioned in 5:22 applies to them, particularly in the Presbyerian tradition, which assumes the the episcopos in 3:2 is the same thing as the elder in 5:22. More seriously, we don't know what the implications were of laying on of hands / ordination, nor are we sure how close the concept of bishop and elder are to later church offices. Typical church histories imply that responsibilities developed over a period of time.

Indeed, it is clear that the offices of Presbyter and Bishop diverged between the mid 1st century and the time of St. Ignatius of Antioch, who outlines the hierarchy we have at present. I suspect this division was due to the repose of the Apostles, with the archpresbyters assuming the title episkopoi, but it could have gone the other way.

Practically speaking, the Presbyterians reinvented the bare minimum function of tne episcopal office in the form of the Moderators of your assemblies - that function being the traditional Episcopal function, but I am sympathetic to why the trauma of the Western church caused you to wish to jettison the monarchial bishops. In the East we love our bishops, but the laity can usually with some difficulty force out a noxious bishop or override their decisions (this has happened - it is rare, but the classic example of the laity overriding the decisions of the hierarchy was the rejection of the Council of Florence, which was approved by both the Eastern Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic hierarchies, with the exception on the EO side of St. Mark of Ephesus - I can’t recall exactly how things occurred in the Armenian church, but it was along these approximate lines.
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BUSTED - 12 False theories refuted:

The animal sacrifices are among the commandments of God; During the millennial period, Gods peoples will be keeping the commandments of God. Therefore, there will be animal sacrifices in the millennial kingdom.
In my view, during the Millennial kingdom they will make atonement sacrifices as commanded by Moses. You argue that atonement sacrifices are not necessary anymore, which is a problem for my view, in many peoples opinion.

To that, I made two arguments. First, as Paul said, it was never possible for atonement sacrifices to take away sins. It wasn't possible then, and so it won't be possible in the future. Therefore, any future atonement sacrifices will not be insulting to the cross or Jesus Christ. Second, while the original purpose of the atonement sacrifices was reconciliation with God, the atonement sacrifices will serve a different purpose in the millennial kingdom.
I do believe that the atonement sacrifices will be offered for atonement. In order to understand this, we need to abandon our erroneous view of the sacrifices. Christians tend to think of the sacrifices in economic terms, which is foreign to Moses. According to the penal-substitution theory of the atonement, if one commits a sin, which is understood as a debt to divine justice, one owes God a lamb, a goat, or a bull until the debt is paid. This model, this interpretation of the sacrifices is not Biblical.

What is the actual purpose of the atonement sacrifice? If one were to offer God a lamb as payment for sins, then it would no longer be called "a sacrifice." When we pay our electric bill, for instance, we are not making an offering to the power company; we are providing money to the power company in exchange for the delivery of electricity. The sacrifice of a lamb is an offering to God to signify contrition and to appeal for reconciliation, not a financial compensation. The Lord, through Moses, gave those living under the original covenant the means whereby the penitent might give expression to righteous sentiments.

The atonement sacrifice was offered to give outward expression to a (supposed) inward attitude toward the situation. The atonement sacrifice speaks to the issue of sin, in a visible way, agreeing with God's opinion of the situation. If a man wants to seek reconciliation with God, he must act as if he agrees with God's opinion on the matter. God doesn't need sacrifices, sometimes he doesn't want then, and he says he hates them. But he is willing to offer reconciliation to a man (or woman) who make an offering in genuine and sincere contrition.

The Lord didn't institute the sacrifices for his own sake, he instituted them for the sake of his people. His people need and want a means to give expression to righteous sentiment. A man doesn't need to offer a lamb to find reconciliation with God; but the man offers the lamb in order to give heart-felt expression to his opinion concerning his sin. He tells God, "I agree with you Lord. What I did was wrong, evil, and deserves your wrath. Please accept my apology and restore me to your favor."

Even Christians, who already know that reconciliation with God came through the blood of Christ, get on their knees and pray for forgiveness when they sin. Some Christians seek a tangible way to give expression to their heart-felt contrition, perhaps confessing sins to a priest, or perhaps giving to charity, or what-have-you. The point is, those who are weak in faith both need and want ritualistic forms of heart-felt attitudes toward God. Mankind invented religion for that purpose. The Lord, through Moses, gave his people certain religious forms, done properly, so that his people might have a tangible way to express righteous sentiments.

The essential and highest purpose of the Millennial kingdom is to bring about the sanctification of God's name on earth. In order to understand the form of that period, we must first understand the problem.

To begin, let's review Paul's argument in Romans chapter 2, where he brings the Jews under condemnation of sin. In chapter one, he brings the entire world under sin, but Paul knows the opinion of his fellow Jews, especially those who teach the people. Such men wrongly believe that teaching the Bible is impressive to God and worthy of his favor. Paul will argue against that perspective, that teaching the Bible does not give anyone special favor with God.
But, without explaining the entire chapter I want to focus on this section, particularly the last verse.

Romans 2:17-24
But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.
How was God's name blasphemed among the Gentiles? Paul asserts that one can find this doctrine in the prophets somewhere. Here are two -examples. -
Ezekiel 36:20-38
Ezekiel briefly recounts Israel's history and why her exile is the basis for Gentile blaspheme. And to this end, I want to focus on the first half of that argument here.

Ezekiel 36:16-21
Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity. Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols. Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them. When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord; yet they have come out of His land.’ But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
From the Lord's point of view, he exiled his people for the cause of disobedience and especially for idolatry. He scattered his people among the nations on purpose. But from the Gentile's point of view, God was weak and ineffective as a leader and unable to keep a people for himself. Other Gods conquered Yahweh, defeated him and took his people away from him. As they say, "These are the people of the Lord; yet they have come out of His land."

The ancient peoples did not believe in a monotheistic, single God. They were polytheists, believing that many gods exist and that the gods fight with each other for supremacy. The victor was known as "god almighty." According to the ancients, the god who ruled supreme was "god almighty," the god who ruled over all the others.
But no one god ruled the entire world. Each god had his own area of influence; each god had his own land. The first god may fight with a second god and take the people of the second god has spoil. From this perspective, the ancient peoples concluded that Yahweh, who had control over "his land", defeated the gods of Egypt and took a people for himself and brought them to his land. But later, another god defeated Yahweh and took them away from his land to other lands. In the mind of the Gentiles, this was proof that Yahweh was not god almighty. He can be defeated.

The Lord tells Ezekiel that he allowed his people to be taken. It wasn't that another, stronger god defeated Yahweh and took his people away. He allowed the other nations to take his people away because they defiled his land. He sent them into exile because of disobedience and idolatry.

But the nations where they went understood history quite differently. They believed that another, stronger god defeated Yahweh, who was not able to keep a people, not able to protect a people, not able to teach a people, not able to provide a place where people can live peacefully in service to Yahweh.
While this was NOT true, this blaspheme was always left unchallenged. This lie persists because God has not yet proven otherwise. And this lie will remain unchallenged until God proves himself. It isn't enough to destroy the earth with a big whoosh and bring about the NHNE, because the lie must be proved in history while this world still exists.

Jesus taught his disciples to pray "Our father, make your name holy . . ." As Christians, We await the day when Yahweh proves himself among the nations. And he will offer proof while history is running its course.

The Lord tells Ezekiel that he intends to prove himself among the nations, demonstrating the truth and giving evidence, by experience, that Yahweh is truly God Almighty. In order to prove himself among the nations, he will bring his people back from exile, circumcise their hearts, have them keep and obey his commandments, and protect them from their enemies. And that last part is very important. In order to sanctify his name, vindicate himself from the charge that he is weak and ineffective against the other gods, he will bring the chief of all the so-called gods, Satan, against his people one last time, and this time Yahweh will defeat him.

Since disobedience of his commandments was one of two reasons why God allowed his people to be taken, then obedience of his commandments will mark the time when God is proving himself among the nations. Not only will his people keep all of his commandments, they will do so willingly because he has circumcised their hearts.
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Restoring Reverence for God.

To be honest, I can't see why there is this reflexive reference back to old traditions.

1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:17

Also the Orthodox Church is growing 18% annually, and other traditional churches report similar growth.

Old styles of music may have emerged with the limited technology of the time, or with different social circumstances. The modern world should have its own forms of worship

Why? The Bible hasn’t changed, most of our music consists of Scripture such as the Psalms, and God also hasn’t changed, neither has the Gospel. The sins of today are exactly the same sins people were committing 2,000 years ago. Indeed our society has only recently caught up with the technology of the later Roman and Byzantine Empire before the spread of Islam and the Dark Ages and Turkocratia (and some Byzantine technologies like Greek Fire we can only approximate).
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US students' reading and math scores at historic lows: 'Devastating trend'


I don't know, I think this says otherwise. Yes those 18-29 year olds may come out of college "all smart and cocky" in their newly founded liberal ways and lean more Democrat but once they meet the real world and get their heads out of their rear ends, they turn Republican. Both parties have their "not so smart" fan clubs which are there because they can't stand one thing or another in the opposing party but really have no clue as to why they hold that position.

The problem with students not learning these days is all about distractions: social media, video gaming, sports. Make these kids only watch Scooby Doo on Saturdays, play Monopoly, Battleship, Scrabble or Clue or run around outside or riding their bicycles the rest of the day and back to the books for studying (like we did when we were kids). No cell phones, no PlayStations and no professional sports for youngsters. Just have fun with the neighbor kids doing simple things.

When they are in school (especially elementary school) strict guidelines on how to act, what needs to be learned ad smoking only in the bathrooms (sorry, just kidding about that last statement :wave:). Seriously, the students need to learn order at a young age (because a lot of times, they don't get it at home like they should) so when they reach the upper grades, they don't act like wild animals (like a lot of them do now and disrupt the class for all).
Am I missing or misreading something? If I click on your link and go down to "Partisanship by education", both the two-way and four-way comparison support that higher educational achievements correlate to democratic leanings. The big shifts occur for finishing a college education.
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Restoring Reverence for God.

I don't care for that at all--seems too self-serving for Catholic self-interest in protecting their Middle Eastern peoples.

How is it self serving for Christian churches to advocate for their members, who were innocent of the Islamist terror attacks?
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Restoring Reverence for God.

Well, he is no Benedict, but no Francis either. I and many conservative Lutherans are watching him with a guarded sense of approval thus far. But he is not our Bishop, but he is a Bishop that we could work with, as was Benedict.

Indeed, I am praying that is the case.
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