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Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by tanzel, May 25, 2015.

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  1. ivebeenshown

    ivebeenshown Expert invisible poster and thread killer

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    Ok.

    Right, which in my mind indicates a degree of parallelism.

    By your logic, every mention of Christ's coming in the bible could be a distinct event.

    It does not make sense that God's wrath would be come more than once, or that the time to judge the dead could come four times as you claim (Revelation 6, Revelation 11, Revelation 20 two times.)

    Please explain how those are separate judgments, when Jesus plainly stated that the "harvest is the end of the world" and the sheep and the goats are divided when he comes in power and glory, which he also stated in response to a question about the end of the world.

    So just how many do you think there are?

    No comment.
     
  2. The Boxer

    The Boxer Fighting the good fight

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    Dave,

    Your post is waaaay too long for me man. I don't have the stamina I once had. I have been dealing ONLY with in2thelight's assertion that the prophecy about the throwing down of the stones of the buildings was not entirely fulfilled. Jesus was NOT speaking about every last stone. The foundational stones, for example, were NOT the subject of discussion. The disciples were not in awe over worthless limestone.

    They were in awe over the grandeur of the stones that ADORNED the temple. Those stones were made of marble and embedded with gold. Jesus said that every one of those stones would be thrown down. Therefore, the prophecy regarding the throwing down of the stones was ENTIRELY fulfilled. The Romans plundered every last one of them.

    However, the whole prophecy was fulfilled as well. Jesus' reference to the sun and moon and stars was TYPICAL language for the fall of the ancient Jewish polity. The exact same language was employed to speak of the fall of ancient Babylon. God said to Isaiah, "Take up this PROVERB against the king of Babylon," and then goes on to describe the fall of Babylon using TYPICAL speech from the sun and moon and stars.
     
  3. Jason Sanders

    Jason Sanders Member

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    ...Why would anyone who truly believes in the ministry of Christ be left behind over what is essentially a minor disagreement? And, for that matter, why would God take his church away from the Earth before the Tribulation, and yet leave the 144,000 to be persecuted until Christ returns? And why does any of that MATTER when the entire reason for our continued presence on Earth is is spread the Word of God to the four corners of the globe, to every nation and every tribe, so that ever tongue might proclaim Him Lord and every knee might bow before Him?

    Really, I'd like to know.
     
  4. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    Everyone who is a true believer in our Savior Jesus Christ will be raptured. I believe that ones end time view is not a qualification on if a person will be raptured or not. It says in Thes 4 : 16-18 that all the dead and alive' in Christ' will be raptured. It is not a works issue.

    As for the 144,000 , these are Jewish men who become believers in Christ who are sealed and saved after the 2 witnesses declare the gospel message. The are saved at the beginning of the tribulation and are protected by God. They are used by God to spread the gospel to an unbelieving world.
     
  5. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    The event Paul is describing in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the same one as in Matthew 24:31, where Jesus sends His angels to gather those remaining alive at His Return, after the Great Tribulation.
    In no way is it a removal to heaven, Jesus has just come down from there and this gathering is to where His is, in Jerusalem.

    Judging by the many and varied end times views, there will be very few who will have got it right, so we [I include myself] rely on the Lord's promise to remove our sins, Psalms 103:12-14 and to open our minds to the truth of His plans. Isaiah 32:3-4
     
  6. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    And if you compare Luke 17 and Matthew 24 side by side, you will see the context of the taken (hint: look for Noah).
     
  7. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    There is a "rapture" or mid-air gathering of the Church but for most people the rapture is synonymous with "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" - a secret taking away of the Church before the Tribulation. This is not biblical, though. Several verses are used out of context and this is what most of the American "experts" teach but I'm absolutely convinced it's wrong.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 describes the mid-air gathering with Christ as occurring at the coming of the Lord, and accompanied by a loud shout, the voice of the archangel (Michael?), and the trumpet call of God. The dead in Christ are raised first - the resurrection of the righteous. Those who are still alive will join them in the clouds.

    1 Corinthians 15 tells us this will be at the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets in Revelation, so--the 7th. Therefore, Christians will be here during the Tribulation, as Christ told us in Matthew 24 (note: the gathering of the elect is after the Tribulation). Paul said the same thing in 2 Thess 2.
     
  8. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    Likewise, Mt24B ('immediately after...') was to be the worldwide end of the world right after the catastrophe in Judea in 70AD

    The disciples asked about the temple and the end of the age. The things He described were not fulfilled in any large part in AD 70--they are end of the age.

    The end (Jesus return and the resurrection and gathering) doesn't come until after the Antichrist is revealed and the great apostasy takes place (when many turn away from the faith). See 2 Thessalonians 2 and Matthew 24. Also see 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15.
     
  9. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Luke 21:5 ¶And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
    6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Mark 13:1 ¶And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!
    2 And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Matthew 24:1 ¶And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
    2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Note that Luke 21:5-6, like its parallel passages, can refer to the stones of the entire 2nd temple complex, including its Wailing Wall.

    In Luke 21:5, the original Greek word (kalos: G2570) translated as "goodly" (in reference to the temple's stones) can mean "beautiful" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). At the time of Jesus' 1st coming, even the huge stones of the temple's Wailing Wall could have been quite beautiful, polished to an amazing, gleaming perfection. Compare the disciples' exclamation: "see what manner of stones ... are here!" (Mark 13:1).

    In Luke 21:5, the original Greek word (anathema: G0334) translated as "gifts" can refer to "a votive offering" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), which would include prayers, for they can be offered (Hebrews 5:7). And the Greek word is derived from another Greek word (anatithemai: G0394), which can mean to "communicate" (Galatians 2:2). Even today, Jews (and sometimes Christians) stick pieces of paper with prayer requests between the stones of the temple's Wailing Wall, hoping that this will help them to communicate with God. At the time of Jesus' 1st coming, the Jews could have also placed, as gifts to the temple, beautiful plaques of silver and gold inscribed with prayers, high up on the wall.

    Matthew 24:34 indeed refers to the fulfillment of "all these things". But note that this includes not only all the events of the tribulation, but also Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church which must occur "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean that the tribulation, 2nd coming, and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' 1st coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

    Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34; cf. Matthew 21:19,43, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

    This doesn't require that the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's 1st year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

    Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b; 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    -

    The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his 1st coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

    But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

    *******

    Note that Matthew 24:29 can refer literally to clouds blocking the light from the sun and moon. And it can refer to what we still today call "falling stars", i.e. meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and be seen before they land on the earth. So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the 1st heaven, the sky/atmosphere. Also, "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal, fallen-angelic "powers" who currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

    And Matthew 24:30 refers to Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when he himself will appear in the clouds: "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). And this won't occur until immediately after the never-fulfilled tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). Matthew 24:30 will occur at the same time as the never-fulfilled Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:31.

    The "sign of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:30a), if it isn't the sign of the Cross, can be the appearance of Jesus himself (Luke 11:29-30) in the sky at his never-fulfilled 2nd coming, when "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30b). Before he lands on the earth (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12), he could circle the globe in the sky so that everyone will be able to see his 2nd coming with their own eyes, as Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:27,30b require. Or most people could see his 2nd coming via a live, breaking-news video feed to their smartphone, computer, or television. This is also the whole point of Matthew 24:23-31: If Jesus' 2nd coming isn't obvious to everyone at the same time, then it is not really Jesus. Another test is that the church's physical resurrection, and then its gathering together (rapture) to hold a meeting in the sky with the returned Jesus, have to occur at the 2nd coming of the real Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    To properly understand the timing of Isaiah 13:10, it must be read in its context (Isaiah 13:1-22).

    The city of Babylon referred to in Isaiah 13 (verses 1,19) isn't the ancient city of Babylon, just as it isn't the symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" of Revelation. Instead, it is only the present-day, literal city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will transform into his world capital during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    For the 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) had not come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires which had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

    Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

    The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system which Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

    Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

    -

    In Isaiah 13:3, the "sanctified ones" who "rejoice in [YHWH's] highness" are the obedient people in the church in Revelation 19:7-8, after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be, in Isaiah 13:4-5, the "host of the battle" from "heaven", when they physically descend from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus as he wages war against the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:14-21). So in Isaiah 13:6,9, the "day of the Lord" is the same as the future, 2nd-coming day of the Lord (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

    Isaiah 13:10 refers to the same, future, 2nd-coming time as Matthew 24:29-31.

    Isaiah 13:11 refers to Jesus' defeat of the world's armies at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Isaiah 13:16 refers not to what Jesus or the church will do, but to what some unsaved "Medes" (Isaiah 13:17-18) will do to the inhabitants of the city of Babylon at the time of Jesus' 2nd coming. By "Medes" is meant the native inhabitants of that part of the Middle East which in ancient times was called "Media" and is now in northwestern Iran.

    In Isaiah 13:17, the "Medes" aren't the ancient Medes who conquered the ancient city of Babylon (Daniel 5:28,31). For the ancient Medes didn't make the ancient city of Babylon uninhabited (Isaiah 13:19-22) when they defeated it, but instead kept it as a thriving city which continued on for centuries.

    In Isaiah 13:19-22, the total and eternal destruction of the city of Babylon has never been fulfilled. For Saddam Hussein rebuilt the city of Babylon (using bricks he inscribed with "built by Saddam Hussein, son of Nebuchadnezzar"). And after his defeat, U.S. forces built a military base in Babylon. And in the future, the Antichrist will transform the city of Babylon into his world capital. Isaiah 13:19-22 won't be fulfilled until this city is destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming.
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that 2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments. For Jesus will finally-judge only the church immediately at his future appearing (2nd coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27, Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48), while the unsaved won't be finally-judged until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). And the great white throne judgment can be thought of as the 3rd and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus' kingdom, the 1st stage being Jesus' post-2nd-coming, 1,000-year reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the 2nd stage being after the 1,000 years, when the Gog/Magog rebellion, its defeat, and then an at-least 7-year aftermath will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Ezekiel 39:9b).

    Note that premillennialism was the teaching of the early church (see Papias) subsequent to John the apostle's writing-down of the book of Revelation, based on the clear prophecy of Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, which shows that the millennium will occur after Jesus' 2nd coming. Amillennialism was an error that didn't crop up until later. The scriptural truth of premillennialism was recovered in relatively modern times when a significant part of the church became interested again in eschatology, and believers could search the scriptures for themselves and see that premillennialism is true, as opposed to during the centuries when the amillennial RCC hierarchy kept the scriptures from believers and simply told them what to believe.

    Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and he won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The 144,000 will indeed all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4). And so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    Note that the 2 witnesses may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8). For the original Greek word (martus: G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same original Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

    Note that the 2 witnesses won't appear until the 2nd half of the tribulation. For they will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

    Also, the 2 witnesses could be literally Moses and Elijah. For the 2 men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4, the 2 "olive trees" refer back to the 2 men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

    Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues which the 2 witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues which Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14).

    Elijah never died, but was taken physically into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael the archangel retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' recently-dead body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated by God back to mortal life, like, for example, how Lazarus' recently-dead body was resuscitated by God back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on what you have said above, these men are part of the New Blood Covenant predicted in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and pronounced by Christ Himself at Matthew 26:28. This covenant is "now" in effect at Hebrews 8:6.
    These men have been grafted into the Olive Tree covenant at Romans 11:27, which is the New Blood Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.




    Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

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  13. tanzel

    tanzel Bible Christian

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    I'm not sure what you getting at, if you can explain, do so. Please write the whole verses and scriptures as I do.
     
  14. Luke17:37

    Luke17:37 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely!

    Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are both about the days of the Son of Man (Jesus), when He is revealed (Luke 17:22, 24, 26, 30) in His glory. It also called the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:27, 36, 37, 39, 42, 44).

    So, concerning that day (the day of Jesus return), look at what Jesus said in Luke 17:

    Luke 17:31-37
    31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
    37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
    So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    I was preconditioned to believe that Jesus was talking about a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church when I would get to verses 34-36. One day when I was reading it, I stopped at verse 37. I could not understand what Jesus was talking about. It seemed like He changed the subject or went into some mysterious allegory. Eagles (or vultures) eating the bodies of Christians sounds dishonorable (it is, by the way... see 2 Samuel 2:4–7, Deuteronomy 21:22–23, 2 Kings 9:10, Revelation 11:7-10, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Amos 2:1, 1 Kings 21:24, Jeremiah 7:30-34 (v 33.), Ezekiel 39:1-6 (v.4), Ezekiel 39:17-20). Also, doesn't it say that, we will not all die, but we will all be changed (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54)? Why would bodies of Christians be left anyway? These things bothered me, and so I sought the Lord with all my heart, begging for understanding of what Jesus meant by "where the carcasses are, there the vultures will gather." The Lord answered my prayer!

    Within a week, I realized this phrase was also found in Matthew 24, so I examined them together, hoping for some insight.

    Matthew 24:23-28
    23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
    26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
    27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

    Jesus is comparing the false returns of Christ with the genuine marks of Christ's return. As everyone sees lightning that flashes from east to west, so everyone will see His return, so it would not be missed or limited to people who exist in a certain geographical or spatial location (e.g., desert, inner room). Jesus repeats this in Luke also, in the passage below.

    Jesus warns people not to believe proclamations that He has returned. (Matthew 24:23, 26). These profuse warnings are also given in Luke (17:23):

    Luke 17:20-24
    20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
    22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

    That's pretty straightforward, right? So, next we'll look at a biblical example Jesus tells us is like His return--the days of Noah.

    Luke 17:26-30
    26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

    Matthew 28:36-44
    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

    In these passages are the key to understanding the identity of the carcasses, who are taken. Did you see it? Here it is again.

    Luke 17:26-27
    26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

    Matthew 24:38-39
    38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

    The taken in the context of the flood were the wicked, who were killed/destroyed when the floodwaters came.

    So, reading Luke 17 again:

    Luke 17:34-37
    34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
    37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
    So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

    When one person is taken and the other is left, you know where the person who's left is. The disciples question, "Where, Lord?" was not about the left, but the taken. Now we understand that Jesus was saying that they would die and vultures would eat their carcasses. So these passages are not about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church--it's about the two true signs of His return:
    1) It will be visible to everyone; and,
    2) People will die, and vultures will feast on their carcasses.

    This is also exactly how it is described in Revelation at Jesus' return:

    Revelation 19:17-18
    17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

    Revelation 19:21
    21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

    The revelation described here was the catalyst for my questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I dug into the Word until I became convinced there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Jesus will resurrect the dead in Christ and gather or rapture His church at the end of the Tribulation, also known as the return of Christ.

    Matthew 24:29-31
    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    May God bless you.
     
  15. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly the pre-tribulation rapture promotors (Lamad and Short Timer) do not believe that Jesus will Judge the Church at His Coming AFTER the Tribulation even if you have proved your point with these verses.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  16. Riberra

    Riberra Well-Known Member

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    Do you consider the vision of Margaret McDonald as being a move of the Holy Spirit ?
    Remember that she is saying that the Coming of Jesus will not be seen by the natural eyes,which is contrary to what the Scriptures say.

    As far as you are concerned with your two coming of Jesus yet to come... well, one can ask from what spirit you and Short Timer get your source of inspiration ???

    Matthew 24
    23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    25 Behold, I have told you before.

    26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  17. bibletruth469

    bibletruth469 Joyful

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    I believe that these are two different events. In 1 Thes 4:16-18 Jesus catches up or gathers believers that are dead and alive' in Christ' to meet him in the air just like the text says. In the Matt 24:31, the angels do the gathering. this event will be after the tribulation and I believe that Jesus will be separating the sheep from the goats on the earth at this time. Look at Matt 25:32-46.
     
  18. keras

    keras Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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    When does 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 take place? ....the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.....This is the Return for Jesus' Millennial reign. Thinking this happens at any earlier time, is incorrect and wrongly interpreted by those who adhere to a pre-trib rapture.
    The sequence according to prophecy is: Jesus will appear over the armies gathered at Armageddon. Revelation 16:14 He will destroy them by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21 He will chain up Satan. Revelation 20:2 Then He will go to Jerusalem where the souls of all the martyr's, that He brought with Him from under the Altar, Revelation 6:9-11, will be resurrected. Revelation 20:4b He sends out His angels to gather all His living people from every corner of the world. Matthew 24:31. The main group will be those who were taken to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14
    The cleansing and then the re-dedication of the Temple will take 30 days. Daniel 12:11
    His righteous people will all join with Him for the Wedding Feast, Revelation 19:6-9, that may last for 75 days. Daniel 12:12
    The Lord will become King over all the earth.....Jerusalem will be inhabited , never again to be destroyed. Zechariah 14:9-11
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



    Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


    Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


    Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
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  20. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    Boy, I've asked myself that same question many times too wondering why some people can't see this.

    One thought that crossed my mind from reading the posts from someone you're in debate with is maybe they don't read everything to see the whole picture? I noticed he only commented on Luke's version in Luke 21:5-6 and not take into consideration what Mark 13:1-2 and Matthew 24:1-2 are saying. And I'm sure there are other reasons too I don't know about.

    Thanks for all that commentary on the long journey from the temple to the Mount of Olives. I have spoken to others about this before when trying to put all the pieces together.




    .
     
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