Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[MoreCoffee]

If you want to think about the second coming then think on these words:

But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 RSV)

But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 RSV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31 RSV)


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[Interplanner]

The Thess material was under the (5th decade AD) expectation that the end of the world would happen quite soon. We know this especially from how the 1st letter puts things. I'm not quite sure what to make of it since it was originally meant to be understood in connection with the scandalous use of the temple in the 1st century etc, the man of sin claiming to be God (as we know from Jesus, this meant a major sacrilege).

Likewise, Mt24B ('immediately after...') was to be the worldwide end of the world right after the catastrophe in Judea in 70AD, with the allowance that the end of the world would only be when the Father decides. And delayed due to the 4 options in Mk 13's parable of the attentive servants.

The day of judgement will transpire very quickly (2 Tim 4) and 2 Pet 3 mentions nothing happening in Israel or geo-political judgements on nations as we know them.

 

[Bro.T]

We will be taken [laqach] from earth below to heaven above, to the third heaven, to Mount Eden, to Paradise, right back to where Adam was set, and to where Adam was cast down to earth from. That is what the redemption of us is for, to be adopted by the Firstborn of the New Creation, and as His sons, to rule and reign with Him over the earth which He ransomed by his blood and will take His power unto Himself and reign over, forever and forever.
Adam was in Eden, ruling over earth and free coming and going, and Mount Eden is in the third heaven, above, and Adam was cast down to the earth below and forbidden access into Paradise in his defiled garments,;which garments are the body of flesh.
The flesh body made of clay is not possible to cleanse, and must be dissolved and regenerated once it is defiled and made unclean. That is the lesson of the Torah, in the Teaching of redemption, and going into the presence of the Glory in the New Man garments, all washed and made clean.
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...day-and-israels-time-for-restoration.7879917/

So you saying that Adam was in the third heaven and he was cast down to earth, and we are going to be taken up where Adam was. Is this what you are saying?

 

[Bro.T]

Matthew 24:
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

That verse is not saying we will be taken any where. It talks about the son of man appearing in the clouds with power and great glory and the angles gathering the elects.

 

[Bro.T]

One of the reasons for promoting the rapture in the late 20th century was the more irrational intellectual atmosphere of neo-orthodox liberal theology. But at the same time, many thought to be Bible-based were doing some things that were like the neos. In the case of the rapture, Trinity Broadcasting could not have launched without leveraging Lindsay's popularization of the rapture, and that explains a lot of why late 20th century Christian church's have this gaping escapism. There was supposed to be a debate with Lindsay and the owner of Trinity, vs a professor in NT background at a Bay Area university, but it was canceled by Lindsay.

As for the definition, there is definitely a quick transformation at death or the end of time in I Cor 15, but you are right, our first thought should be the deep, warm welcoming greeting, as if from a best old friend. This is ruined by pursuing too much of the sequential issues of the final day of judgement; the shorter our view of the span of these things, the more accurate. Nothing need happen over in Israel, either.

I think people waste to much time trying to come up them new ideas when it comes to the word of God, then to take a little time and read the Bible and pray for understanding. The Lord have bless man with so many gifts, we can almost accomplish anything as long as the Lord ok the situation. But when comes to the word of God, man blows the mission all the time. Why would a person want to go some place else anyway?

 

[Bro.T]

Lets take another look at John 14:1-3 1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 14:2 In
my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare
a place for you. 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you
unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Now if we look close at what jesus is saying
we can point out some things here. Jesus said in verse 3, "I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again"
Now we know Jesus ascended back to heaven, sitting on the right hand of the Father.

So, Lets go and see when Jesus left the earth to go to the third heaven to the Father in Acts 1: 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 1:10 And while they
looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus,
which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into
heaven.

Lets look at the middle of verse 3 John 14: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come
again, now lets answer this, Revelation 21: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 21:2 And I John saw the
holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for
her husband. 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God
is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

So, now...at this point we have Jesus and the Father and we have a new heaven and new earth, not the third heaven, but still the first heaven and new earth.

 

[Bro.T]

If you want to think about the second coming then think on these words:

But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 RSV)

But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 RSV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31 RSV)
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Very good verses. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is right on point, but thats the saints, most people don't know who are the saints or how one become a saint. Lets go in Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Now lets understand...the saint are going to meet the Lord in the air, then what? Keep in mind the rest of the people are still on earth!

 

[BABerean2]

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Very good verses. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is right on point, but thats the saints, most people don't know who are the saints or how one become a saint. Lets go in Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Now lets understand...the saint are going to meet the Lord in the air, then what? Keep in mind the rest of the people are still on earth!

Here is a picture of the event that most miss, because it is written in plain sight, but has been redefined by "The Left Behind" movies and books.



Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The Book of Ephesians says the Church is "mystery".

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev. 1:20 says the candlesticks are the churches.
In Romans chapter 11, two Olive Trees were grafted together.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. If this is not a resurrection event, what is it?

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. This sounds like 1st Thess. chapter 4.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Game over, end of story, this world has become the kingdom of God and Christ.

We have to understand the symbols and use scripture to define them.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So you saying that Adam was in the third heaven and he was cast down to earth, and we are going to be taken up where Adam was. Is this what you are saying?

Yes, because that is what the Word of God does teach.
Adam was in Paradise, and was set there in the beginning and had daily fellowship with God the Word.
When Adam disobeyed, he lost sonship and fellowship and died spiritually, and the physical death followed by the corruption that entered at the fall, began to have dominion over him and his kingdom -which he sold by that sin; and Adam was divorced -as to his Adam spirit- from the Creator. The Hebrew word was used to signify divorce when he "driven out" of Paradise.
Zion above became a barren widow when Adam died, and all the sons/stones to multiply the sons of God for the building up of Zion above, and to "Plant the heavens" -as the Word says Israel was formed to do, then, died in Adam's loins that day as to being holy seed/sons [Hebrew ben] to be the stones [Hebrew eben] to build up Zion for the Glory to indwell.


In Christ, we will be the "bride" as to the spiritual and physical adoption into the Name of the New Man...
Paradise is in the third heaven. The heavens were stretched out from the earth, itself, on day 2 of creation week. the heavens that were stretched out between the divided waters of this globe all started right here, on this earth, and the third heaven is where Paradise is, and where Adam had freedom to come and go, back and forth, to and from.

This is all in the Word.

We are to go back to the place Adam got cast down from, Paradise, in the third heaven, and in our New Man garments [regenerated in flesh body and regenerated in spirit] and we will be glorified as sons of God, and will reign with the Firstborn Son, as His adopted sons, in heaven; and the plan God had from the beginning will go on, and on, and on...but not in the Adam name, but in the name of the "Bride of the Firstborn Son, whose name is not "Adam", but "Israel"....We have to be born anew in spirit and in body to enter into the presence on high....and that is what the Law teaches by the oracles given to the namesake people to rehearse until all are fulfilled; and how is taught in the clothing of the priests of Israel and in the sacrifice of the Day of Atonement, and in the furnishings of the temple and in the construction of it, and so on.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Adam was on Earth. In a garden prepared by God. Adam and his wife (Eve) were not in "the third heaven". The heavens were thought of thus:

1. The first heaven was the air (in Genesis chapter one this is called the heavens)
2. The second heaven was the stars
3. The third heaven was the dwelling place of God

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That verse is not saying we will be taken any where. It talks about the son of man appearing in the clouds with power and great glory and the angles gathering the elects.

That's because we are already with Him, and those elected to do so, from among the raptured saints, will, with holy angels, return at that time, with Christ, to do the work Jesus spoke of, but our residence will be in Eden, at that time, who were raptured pretrib, and those who are gleaned post trib also.

Those on earth are gathered in three groups by the angels:

1 the tares: evil plants among the Adam creation race, whether the disembodied demon souls who are the evil spirits who roam earth, tormenting and seducing and afflicting the sons of Adam until then, or the living tares created by the same sin as the first, of the last days, who have not been disembodied .
2 the goat Gentiles
3 the sheep Gentiles.

The tares are gathered for the purpose of the cleansing of the earth from all evil, and thrown into the Lake of Fire, where they, themselves will be tormented forever by the satans who are created evil angels to do what the satans do: tempt, test, seduce, torment and afflict the sons of Adam and the holy Watcher angels who fell.

The goat Gentiles are thrown into the Lake of Fire, as also the beast and the false prophet are.

The sheep Gentiles enter into the kingdom of God come on earth, and live the thousand years, as Adam was created to do, before they are transformed at the end to the glory bodies and also arise to Eden, and "plant the heavens" as sons of God made to be the temple not made with hands for the Glory to indwell.

Then the heavens and earth are elementally dissolved and regenerated in a flash, just like our bodies will be if we are alive and remaining when the gathering together unto the LORD in the air comes, pre-trib.
Then the creation will go on forever, but Adam will be no more multiplying and planting the heavens with sons of God for the Glory to indwell, but the New Name, the Firstborn, the Redeemer/Kinsman of the Adam will go on forever; and that name is "Israel" [Isaiah 49; Genesis 32; Hosea 12, etc...], not "Adam" [Genesis 5:2]

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Adam was on Earth. In a garden prepared by God. Adam and his wife (Eve) were not in "the third heaven". The heavens were thought of thus:

1. The first heaven was the air (in Genesis chapter one this is called the heavens)
2. The second heaven was the stars
3. The third heaven was the dwelling place of God

The air is called the face of heaven, in Genesis 1 -check the Hebrew.
Paradise is God's Garden, and it is in the third heaven, where the Tree of Life is: Paul went there, to the third heaven, where Paradise is.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
and Jesus says Paradise is where the Tree of Life is
Rev 2:7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

God the Word who came incarnate in new creation flesh as Redeemer/Kinsman never left heaven as Christ the Living Spirit, and told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him "today, in Paradise": The soul of the ransomed thief from the cross went immediately into the presence of Christ in the third heaven, into Paradise.
For that reason, also, Jesus said that He was present in heaven [the Living Word/Christ the Living Spirit] and on earth [in flesh of new creation], in John 3 13, when he declared no man had ascended [to sit on the throne of God in heaven] but He who was in heaven, the Son of Man.

Enoch saw Him in mystery hidden, with God, as God, sitting on the throne in heaven, and who was to come. That book is canon in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and it explains much to us about so many things said and taught about Christ, Himself, seen by Enoch as the Son of Man in heaven and God the very Word/Oath of God, who is come as Salvation to all who believe in His name:
Jhn 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Mount Eden is the Holy Mount of God where Paradise is, and where Adam was cast down from and driven out [divorced from/cut off from], by the cherub who guarded him in Paradise -check the Hebrew and Douay Rheims, Ezekiel 28: the cherub guarded the Adam] it is not Satan who was in Mount Eden above who got cast down, but Adam; and the spirit of Adam is addressed in the person of the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28.
"walked among the stones of fire" -the temple of God in the heavens, separate from the Paradise of God, open to Adam going in and out of, like the holy angels do [as Enoch saw them in chapter 71, I think it is], and like we will do when we ascend in our glorified bodies:
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

 

[Bro.T]

That's because we are already with Him, and those elected to do so, from among the raptured saints, will, with holy angels, return at that time, with Christ, to do the work Jesus spoke of, but our residence will be in Eden, at that time, who were raptured pretrib, and those who are gleaned post trib also.

Those on earth are gathered in three groups by the angels:

1 the tares: evil plants among the Adam creation race, whether the disembodied demon souls who are the evil spirits who roam earth, tormenting and seducing and afflicting the sons of Adam until then, or the living tares created by the same sin as the first, of the last days, who have not been disembodied .
2 the goat Gentiles
3 the sheep Gentiles.

The tares are gathered for the purpose of the cleansing of the earth from all evil, and thrown into the Lake of Fire, where they, themselves will be tormented forever by the satans who are created evil angels to do what the satans do: tempt, test, seduce, torment and afflict the sons of Adam and the holy Watcher angels who fell.

The goat Gentiles are thrown into the Lake of Fire, as also the beast and the false prophet are.

The sheep Gentiles enter into the kingdom of God come on earth, and live the thousand years, as Adam was created to do, before they are transformed at the end to the glory bodies and also arise to Eden, and "plant the heavens" as sons of God made to be the temple not made with hands for the Glory to indwell.

Then the heavens and earth are elementally dissolved and regenerated in a flash, just like our bodies will be if we are alive and remaining when the gathering together unto the LORD in the air comes, pre-trib.
Then the creation will go on forever, but Adam will be no more multiplying and planting the heavens with sons of God for the Glory to indwell, but the New Name, the Firstborn, the Redeemer/Kinsman of the Adam will go on forever; and that name is "Israel" [Isaiah 49; Genesis 32; Hosea 12, etc...], not "Adam" [Genesis 5:2]

Just as a person freely accepted Jesus in they life, they can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of a persons life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. People are being taught that once you are quote “saved” that you can never fall to the spiritually lost condition. This is not true and totally unbiblical; this teaching is a damnable heresy brought in by man. The Lord's elects (saints) are those who keep the faith and commandments of the Lord. Lets go into Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. This include the Lord's sabbath day on the seventh day of the week (Saturday) and the Lord's Holy and High days. Even then one could stop keeping the Lord's laws, before the Lord make his second coming.

 

[Bro.T]

The air is called the face of heaven, in Genesis 1 -check the Hebrew.
Paradise is God's Garden, and it is in the third heaven, where the Tree of Life is: Paul went there, to the third heaven, where Paradise is.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
and Jesus says Paradise is where the Tree of Life is
Rev 2:7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

God the Word who came incarnate in new creation flesh as Redeemer/Kinsman never left heaven as Christ the Living Spirit, and told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him "today, in Paradise": The soul of the ransomed thief from the cross went immediately into the presence of Christ in the third heaven, into Paradise.
For that reason, also, Jesus said that He was present in heaven [the Living Word/Christ the Living Spirit] and on earth [in flesh of new creation], in John 3 13, when he declared no man had ascended [to sit on the throne of God in heaven] but He who was in heaven, the Son of Man.

Enoch saw Him in mystery hidden, with God, as God, sitting on the throne in heaven, and who was to come. That book is canon in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and it explains much to us about so many things said and taught about Christ, Himself, seen by Enoch as the Son of Man in heaven and God the very Word/Oath of God, who is come as Salvation to all who believe in His name:
Jhn 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Mount Eden is the Holy Mount of God where Paradise is, and where Adam was cast down from and driven out [divorced from/cut off from], by the cherub who guarded him in Paradise -check the Hebrew and Douay Rheims, Ezekiel 28: the cherub guarded the Adam] it is not Satan who was in Mount Eden above who got cast down, but Adam; and the spirit of Adam is addressed in the person of the King of Tyre in Ezekiel 28.
"walked among the stones of fire" -the temple of God in the heavens, separate from the Paradise of God, open to Adam going in and out of, like the holy angels do [as Enoch saw them in chapter 71, I think it is], and like we will do when we ascend in our glorified bodies:
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

I understand your form of thinking and I see a few errors. I agree that Jesus is in the third heaven and Paul did see a vision, but of course did say, "whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth." Lets take a look at the thief on the cross situation. Most people miss understand this situation all the time. Lets carefully look at this ...let go into Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Now if we look closely with spiritual eyes and understanding we know that something is wrong with situation. The common is in the wrong place, Lets place the common in the right place and see how it should read...43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. Those that have knowledge knows that Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights, so with understanding we see the error right a way. Lets go into Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So Jesus and the thieves went to the grave when they died. Now, Jesus rose from the grave after three day and three nights, and still didn't go to the third heaven yet. Lets go into St. John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Now...Jesus still on Earth (first heaven) and talking to Mary, and where is the thief? Still in the grave into this day! We can read any where Jesus told the thief, I'll meet you up there in a few days, hod tight till I get there...Lol. Jesus says with his own mouth in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. But people look over the 42 second verse in in Luke. Lets read it again. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Remember me when thou comes into thy kingdom. Thats after Jesus second coming, brothers and sisters. Lets go into Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. This is Jesus Kingdom or paradise the thief ask Jesus to remember him in.

 

[Bro.T]

Adam was on Earth. In a garden prepared by God. Adam and his wife (Eve) were not in "the third heaven". The heavens were thought of thus:

1. The first heaven was the air (in Genesis chapter one this is called the heavens)
2. The second heaven was the stars
3. The third heaven was the dwelling place of God

I agree with you except for the first heaven is the Earth. I learn this through the Lord prayer...lets take a look in Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. That heaven we just read is the third heaven, because Jesus just said, "our Father which art in Heaven," and when thy kingdom come in earth, thy it will be done, like the third heaven, where the Father and Jesus is at.

Now the second heaven is where the stars, moon, sun, and clouds, are.

 

[Bro.T]

Here is a picture of the event that most miss, because it is written in plain sight, but has been redefined by "The Left Behind" movies and books.



Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. The Book of Ephesians says the Church is "mystery".

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev. 1:20 says the candlesticks are the churches.
In Romans chapter 11, two Olive Trees were grafted together.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. If this is not a resurrection event, what is it?

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. This sounds like 1st Thess. chapter 4.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Game over, end of story, this world has become the kingdom of God and Christ.

We have to understand the symbols and use scripture to define them.

Thats cool and you are right. The two witnesses are apart of the saints as well...good verses. I want people to understand what happen to those who are not saints. who will not come up in the first resurrection! That my point.

 

[BABerean2]

Thats cool and you are right. The two witnesses are apart of the saints as well...good verses. I want people to understand what happen to those who are not saints. who will not come up in the first resurrection! That my point.

When we are given symbols like the candle sticks and the olive trees, we all know it is symbolic language and not literal.
In this case, the answer is almost always in scripture to tell us the meaning of the symbol.

However, in the Book of Revelation it is sometimes difficult to know what is literal and what is symbolic.
When this occurs, we usually have to assume the literal interpretation first and check it to see if it produces a conflict with the other scriptures.

The key is looking at the text and making a valid attempt at throwing off all manmade interpretations, which is very difficult.
I do not know if any of us are totally capable of doing this.

The most difficult thing is to admit, "Hey, I was wrong about that.".

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I understand your form of thinking and I see a few errors. I agree that Jesus is in the third heaven and Paul did see a vision, but of course did say, "whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth." Lets take a look at the thief on the cross situation. Most people miss understand this situation all the time.....

the New Man creation human being body that Christ come incarnate in, was in the grave three days and three nights, while His soul was in Sheol, but You miss what Jesus said, and what Paul said:
Paul said Paradise is in the third heaven, and one[himself, probably], was raptured to there [whether in body or out of the body, or in spirit, only, he did not know], but he was "raptured/Caught up/Taken to Paradise in the third heaven".

Jesus said the Tree of Life is in the midst of the Paradise of God...

Jesus said, in John 3, that the Son of Man is come down from heaven [in flesh of new creation in which He is incarnate forever], and in heaven, at the same time.

Enoch saw Him there, in heaven, sitting on the throne as the Son of Man in heaven, who was with God, hidden in God, and who was God the Word, and who was to come".
So Paradise is in the third heaven. The tree of Life is in the midst of it.

Jesus is the Son of Man on the throne there, in heaven, as Christ the Living Spirit and God the Word, who is now incarnate/come in flesh of new creation as Redeemer/Kinsman [Isaiah 59], to the brother Adam creation flesh, but not less than the Living Spirit/God the Word, who created all things ,and, in John 3, still in heaven as one equal Person in the Triune YHWH, while still the Son of Man come in flesh on earth.
In Rev we see Him as the Lamb approaching the One on the throne, and they two are one. In the End of Rev They have one face and sit on one Throne, and are "God and the Lamb"...check it out.


So when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "today, you will be with me in Paradise", that was the absolute Truth, spoken by Him who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Jesus said "John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

He was seen by Enoch, sitting on the throne there, which was made for the Son of Man, and to which no human ever has ascended to sit upon, but the Son of Man [in whose image Adam is made] always sat upon i,t in mystery, hidden, and was to come as our Salvation.
He is come. The Mystery is revealed: God is come in flesh to ransom us back who were made in His own physical image [to come: Romans 5:14: Genesis 1:28]
Enoch and Elijah both were "raptured/taken away to, caught up to" Eden, but Enoch, only, in his transfigured flesh body.

Elijah is not transfigured and is returning with Moses, who was raptured also in his resurrected flesh but not transfigured. Both Elijah and Moses were present to see the incarnation and the life, death, and resurrection of the LORD incarnate. They were on the mount speaking with Him about His upcoming death in Jerusalem, and they, as witnesses to the LORD'S incarnation and Life...will return to preach Him, representing the Law and the Prophets, in the first three and a half years of Daniel's last seven year week.

Enoch was transfigured and he rules with the Watcher angels, and is the human being seen in glory in Rev, as one of the seven messengers of the LORD who came out of the temple with a bowl of wrath in the tribulation, to pour out on earth, and who was showing John the things to come, but "who told John he was a brethren [human being] and a fellow prophet".

Adam was set in Paradise and cast out and down to earth and divorced/cut off from the Living Spirit and could not enter the third heaven anymore, so that he would not eat of the Tree of Life in Paradise in the third heaven, in Mount Eden, the Holy Mount of God, where Paradise is;
and live forever in that defiled flesh body and not be able to ever be transfigured to glory, in regenerated flesh, which is the redemption promised in Genesis 3:15.
.

 

[BABerean2]

Elijah is not transfigured and is returning with Moses, who was raptured also in his resurrected flesh but not transfigured

Did Moses die in the Old Testament?

Is there any specific text that describes his bodily resurrection?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Did Moses die in the Old Testament?

Is there any specific text that describes his bodily resurrection?

Yes, Moses died, but he was resurrected in his own body and was with Elijah in his own body on the Mount of Transfiguration.
He was taken into heaven to be there, with Elijah, until he returns with Elijah to preach in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years.
Satan could not have his flesh for corruption [Jude], for the fact that God was to raise him, in the same, and use him in the same, before he dies the second time in that flesh in the streets of Jerusalem, and is then resurrected in his regenerated flesh with Elijah, 3 1/2 days after they are killed.
The particular writing that details the resurrection and assumption of Moses I do not think we have, but Jude alluded to it. -it may be around, but I am not familiar with it; only with the fact that the ancients did know it, and wrote about it. Jude alludes to it; and there Moses is, talking with Jesus and being the living witness who will return with Elijah to preach what they saw with their own eyes, to the namesake people of the New Man name.


The fact that he appeared speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, with Elijah, is also corroboration of it.
Moses represents the Witness of the Law to Christ and Elijah represents the Witness of the Prophets to Christ, and they preach it in Jerusalem to Israel, after the rapture of the Church.

But as to Moses' death: it is a sign and great warning to all to not crucify Christ, the Rock, twice.
First Moses struck the Rock that typed Christ in the wilderness, for life giving water.
After walking backslidden in the wilderness and thirsting, they came back to the Rock. Moses was instructed to "speak to the Rock" for water, but Moses, in anger, struck it, and so interfered with the sign of bringing the sacrifice of words of our lips in repentance and confession of our backsliding after we have fallen away, but never to "crucify Christ twice", as if we were not saved by His once for all Atonement, once, for all.

Only if we deny that the blood of Jesus saved us when we first believed, and turn to another way other than His once for all Atonement, can we never crucify Him again for sin; but if we fall into error and sin -but do not deny who He is in His Person and what His work is, as God, the Savior of the world, then when we come to our senses we return not by crucifying Him/Striking the Rock, again, but we bring words and return to Him for Life Giving Water.
Moses did a bad thing when he did not obey, because everything he was told to do was a sign of the Person and work of Christ who was to come in flesh. But Moses death also was a sign of the greater eternal death that will overtake those who deny the first Strike is the once for all Atonement....and so, Moses was raised to finish his witness to the children of Israel, after the church is taken out of the midst of the world, in the rapture, and God turns to the restoration of Israel, and saves the Remnant....