Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[ivebeenshown]

I have never counted up to see how many. I named three. Although the Greek is translated here "end of the world" I think end of the age would be a better translation, for the world continues under new leadership: the Lord Jesus Christ.

But there is an 'end of the world', where the heavens and earth are dissolved, in the day of the Lord, according to Peter.

I have never really solved exactly when the Day starts: it will be either at the very moment John wrote "the day of His wrath has come" or it will be at the 7th seal that officially opens the 70th week, or perhaps with the first trumpet judgment. To be very exact, Joel wrote "before the great and terrible day of the Lord come." What we don't know is how long before? Certainly time progresses in chapter 6 and at the end of the chapter when people say that the DAY has come, it is after the signs in the sun and moon. It is after the sky rolls up and after the stars fall. All this means time is passing. Therefore when they say the day is come, who am I to doubt them? God and John saw fit to included what they said. However, if someone wants to argue that the Day starts with the 7th seal or the first trumpet, I would not argue.

I see.

Simply because it is not. Isn't that a good enough reason? Show me what you would call an "'overlap" and I will show it is not.

That is no reason at all. It is an arbitrary statement.

But here are some examples:

- Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 20:12-13, where the dead are judged. What apart from a strictly literal and chronological view of Revelation could support a view that there is more than one judgment of the dead, whether righteous or unrighteous?
- Revelation 6:14 and Revelation 20:11. How could heaven flee away or depart more than once? How could anything happen in the heavens (sun, moon, stars or otherwise) after such an event?

There are many others but I cannot type so well on my phone, so that must be for another time. My point, though, is that Revelation is written in a certain genre and that should really be taken into consideration when reading it. An unrealistic series of visions is not bound to being interpreted as one continuous series of events.

 

[BABerean2]

Show me what you would call an "'overlap" and I will show it is not.

Revelation 6 and Revelation16:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.



Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.



Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

………………………………..............................

A difference in details does not mean two events are not the same.

If it did, it would mean the women visited the empty tomb three times, because the different Gospel accounts contain different details.

Rev_6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (Day of the Lord in Joel 3:15)

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

An earthquake that moves every mountain and island out of it's place would shatter the Richter Scale.

It would be an earth shattering event.

Rev_8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

An angel of God casting fire from heaven upon the earth would be an earth shattering event.

Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.



Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Both of these references to an earthquake are near the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Rev_16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

This is the same earth shattering earthquake that we had in chapter 6.

The following verses show the connections between chapter 6 and the later chapters through the events on the Day of the Lord.

Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

(Connects the Day of the Lord to Rev. 6)

Joe_2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

(Connects the Day of the Lord to Rev. 6)

Joe_3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. (What valley?)

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

(the Day of the Lord)

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

(Connects in to 2nd Peter 3:10 and 1st Thess. chapter 5)
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[Psalm3704]

Those three parallel scriptures all go on to say: Take care that no-one misleads you......
Seems you and Dave haven't taken enough care!

Those three scriptures also addresses the end times and the second coming, nothing to do with 70 AD.

If you want "the" prophecy for 70 AD, read Luke 19:41-45. The Olivet Discourse has nothing to do with it.







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[Psalm3704]

I have never heard of such a notion.

Post #5107. More information there.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/why-do-people-believe-in-a-rapture.7889895/page-256







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[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 5171:

Because we get raptured to heaven.

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

iamlamad said in post 5171:

Read Isaiah 2 and discover even the great earthquake at the 6th seal IS INDEED a part of the Day of the Lord and so a part of His wrath.

Note that the day of the Lord in Isaiah 2:10-21 has to begin at the 2nd coming, not at the start of the tribulation. For during the 2nd half of the tribulation, it is Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") who will be exalted by the world (Revelation 13:4-18), not the Lord, contradicting "the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).

Also, during the 2nd half of the tribulation, the world will worship the ultimate idol, the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:14-15), contradicting that in that day "the idols he [the Lord] shall utterly abolish" (Isaiah 2:18).

So the people hiding in the rocks at the 2nd coming (Isaiah 2:19-21) has to be a separate instance from the people hiding in the rocks at one point during only the 1st stage of the tribulation (Revelation 6:15-16). It's not like people can hide in rocks only one time. Some people did it way back in 1 Samuel 13:6, for example. And Hosea 10:8b refers to the fall of Samaria in 722 BC (Hosea 10:7-8). And Luke 23:30 can include reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 23:28-30). So Revelation 6:16 can be just one more instance, years before the 2nd coming in Isaiah 2:10-21, where "the glory of his majesty" is the same as in Matthew 24:30, at the 2nd coming.

So the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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iamlamad said in post 5174:

For all those left behind - CERTAINLY those that were not watching and not believing He could come any day . . .

Do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which will be the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

iamlamad said in post 5174:

For all those left behind - CERTAINLY those that were not watching and not believing He could come any day . . .

Note that in the Bible, when we are told to "watch" for Christ's 2nd coming (Mark 13:35-37), the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" doesn't mean to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus to return, for if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before he returns (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

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iamlamad said in post 5187:

The sheep and goat judgment will be one judgment. The wheat and tares parable will be another judgment, but these will be for different people. The very many deaths at the battle of armageddon will be yet another judgment. Of course the white throne judgment will be another.

Note that the sheep and goat judgment, the wheat and tares judgment, and the white throne judgment will all be the same judgment.

For regarding the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect, and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 won't occur at the 2nd coming, but at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

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iamlamad said in post 5192:

Paul's "last trump" will be the last trumpet of the church age.

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

iamlamad said in post 5192:

Paul's "last trump" will be the last trumpet of the church age.

Actually, the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) will be the trumpet which will sound after the tribulation (Matthew 24:31).

 

[Bible2+]

ivebeenshown said in post 5203:

Paul said that when Jesus is revealed from heaven in power and glory and comes with his angels, he will deliver the punishment of everlasting destruction.

Note that the "everlasting destruction" of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 can include unsaved people alive at the 2nd coming being sent both (first) to Hades at their death at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:21), and then (later) to the lake of fire, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:4-15). For there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21:

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, while currently he is walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), while currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there is no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning first on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), while there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving, unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), while by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the physical resurrection of the church will occur at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety only to physical resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

ivebeenshown said in post 5203:

And when Jesus answered the question at the mount of Olives, the question was 'what is the sign of your coming and the end of the world?'

"... what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3).

In Matthew 24:3, the original Greek word (aion: G0165) translated as "world" can be translated as "age" (Ephesians 2:7, Colossians 1:26).

Note that while the apostles of the church asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).

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ivebeenshown said in post 5205:

But there is an 'end of the world', where the heavens and earth are dissolved, in the day of the Lord, according to Peter.

Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

ivebeenshown said in post 5205:

Revelation is written in a certain genre and that should really be taken into consideration when reading it. An unrealistic series of visions is not bound to being interpreted as one continuous series of events.

By unrealistic, do you mean merely symbolic?

If so, regarding what some call "the apocalyptic genre", note that Revelation itself, as a whole, can be almost entirely literal, because, as scripture, it is not bound by any man-made ideas regarding any made-made categories for writings in general. Revelation, like other scripture, was written by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16), meaning that it wasn't written by the will of man, but written by a holy man as he was moved by the Holy Spirit to write it (cf. 2 Peter 1:21), so that the words of Revelation are what the Holy Spirit himself spoke (cf. Acts 1:16, Acts 28:25b). And nothing about these words requires that Revelation can't be almost entirely literal.

Indeed, Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Revelation 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 5206:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Regarding earthquakes in Revelation, note that a 2nd woe/6th trumpet earthquake (Revelation 11:13-14, cf. Revelation 9:12-13) will destroy 1/10 of Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8,13) and kill 7,000 people (Revelation 11:13), right after the 2 witnesses are resuscitated and taken up to heaven (Revelation 11:11-13). And there will be a subsequent earthquake after the 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15,19). And then there will be yet another earthquake after the 7th vial is poured out (Revelation 16:17-20). Between the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial, the first 6 vials will occur in order (Revelation 16). Before all of these earthquakes, one will occur after the 7th seal is unsealed (Revelation 8:1,5) and before the 1st trumpet sounds (Revelation 8:7). There will also be another, even-earlier earthquake after the 6th seal is unsealed (Revelation 6:12).

BABerean2 said in post 5206:

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Note that in Revelation 16:20 the original Greek word (pheugo, G5343) translated as "fled away" can refer to a movement of only a few feet (Acts 27:30), which can happen to islands in a great earthquake (Revelation 16:18b).

Also, in Revelation 16:20 the original Greek word (heurisko, G2147) translated as "found" can be translated as "saw" (Matthew 2:11, Textus Receptus) or "perceived" (Acts 23:29), and so can refer to the peaks of every mountain range being so damaged by the future, unprecedented earthquake of Revelation 16:18b that the mountain ranges will no longer look like what they look like today.

 

[iamlamad]

But there is an 'end of the world', where the heavens and earth are dissolved, in the day of the Lord, according to Peter.

I see.

That is no reason at all. It is an arbitrary statement.

But here are some examples:

- Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 20:12-13, where the dead are judged. What apart from a strictly literal and chronological view of Revelation could support a view that there is more than one judgment of the dead, whether righteous or unrighteous?
- Revelation 6:14 and Revelation 20:11. How could heaven flee away or depart more than once? How could anything happen in the heavens (sun, moon, stars or otherwise) after such an event?

There are many others but I cannot type so well on my phone, so that must be for another time. My point, though, is that Revelation is written in a certain genre and that should really be taken into consideration when reading it. An unrealistic series of visions is not bound to being interpreted as one continuous series of events.

Revelation 11:18 is a prophecy or foretelling of future events. Another example is the several times it is written "Babylon is fallen, is fallen." It is prophecy until it comes to pass. Do you understand why it is said twice each time? I don't. I cannot call a prophecy as an overlap. One guy said "back-peddling." I just don't believe it. Probably the worst are those that think the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel events.

Maybe arbitrary but still true. You just don't know it yet. You tell me: when the goats are proved goats, are they not judged at that moment then are cast into everlasting fire? I call that being judged.

Heaven may be in layers. It is just possible that when all is removed we find heaven is close enough to see. I know of a little girl that went to heaven at 4 1/2 years old, and when she came back to earth, she could just look up and SEE heaven. Perhaps it was a continuous vision, or perhaps she really was seeing into heaven. Her pastor ask her how she could play when whenever she looked up she could see heaven. She said, "I just don't look up." You see, know on really knows what it means for "heaven" to roll up as a scroll. It is certainly NOT the stars being rolled up.

It is written as it is written. John (and God giving the vision) was extremely careful to write in a chronological manner. Except for parentheses and prophesies, everything in one chapter will happen after events in a previous chapter and before the events in a later chapter. That is just the way it was written. You may not believe it now, but when these events begin, they will happen in the very order they are written.

 

[Postvieww]

Revelation 6 and Revelation16:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.



Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.



Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

………………………………..............................

A difference in details does not mean two events are not the same.

If it did, it would mean the women visited the empty tomb three times, because the different Gospel accounts contain different details.

Rev_6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (Day of the Lord in Joel 3:15)

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

An earthquake that moves every mountain and island out of it's place would shatter the Richter Scale.

It would be an earth shattering event.

Rev_8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

An angel of God casting fire from heaven upon the earth would be an earth shattering event.

Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.



Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Both of these references to an earthquake are near the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

Rev_16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

This is the same earth shattering earthquake that we had in chapter 6.

The following verses show the connections between chapter 6 and the later chapters through the events on the Day of the Lord.

Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

(Connects the Day of the Lord to Rev. 6)

Joe_2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

(Connects the Day of the Lord to Rev. 6)

Joe_3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. (What valley?)

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

(the Day of the Lord)

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

(Connects in to 2nd Peter 3:10 and 1st Thess. chapter 5)
.

Amen, Amen, Amen. Why is it these simple facts are so hard for many to see in the scriptures. Could it be many have so heavily invested themselves in their own man made theories that simply stated facts are not to be tolerated because they shed light on darkness. Food for thought : which side of this issue spends more time telling everyone what simply worded scriptures do not mean .

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 6 and Revelation16:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

How silly is this? is God not allowed to have TWO earthquakes? You make me laugh! If one earthquake is "such as was not since men were on the earth," how can a previous even be considered as the same? Do you really read these verses?


Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Again a silly answer. If a mountain were moved, I could still climb it. If a mountain sank into the earth and could not be found, no one could evermore climb it. Have you not yet understood that the judgments in Revelation are PROGRESSIVE and as time passes and men refuse to repent - judgment gets WORSE?

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Your theories are getting worse! John did not tell us that the mountains DID fall on them and kill them - only that they wanted that to happen. All that is telling is that people from EVERY WALK OF LIFE were involved in both instances. You absolutely amaze me in your inability to understand these simple things. Especially when you have been taught over and over but just ignore.

A difference in details does not mean two events are not the same.
This is certainly true in some cases. I think the Ezekiel 38-39 war will be the battle of Armageddon. Others don't, but think they come earlier. Of course, the opposite is true many times also, they are NOT the same. It seems you have no understanding at all of TIME PASSING in Revelation. If two events sound the same but come at different times, they certainly cannot be the same event.

If it did, it would mean the women visited the empty tomb three times, because the different Gospel accounts contain different details.
More silliness. We understand what events are the same and what are different by STUDY and meditation.

Rev_6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; (Day of the Lord in Joel 3:15)

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

An earthquake that moves every mountain and island out of it's place would shatter the Richter Scale.

It would be an earth shattering event.
So? Is God not allowed to have an earth shattering event? But, perhaps you don't understand. Did you know that a great earthquake can SHIFT the poles of the earth, and the axis upon which the earths turns, and this effectively moves every mountain and every island out of its place? The earthquake that caused the great tsunami in Japan did just that.

Rev_8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

An angel of God casting fire from heaven upon the earth would be an earth shattering event.
God is an earth shattering God. Eventually He will DESTROY the current heaven and earth.

Rev_11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
We can be sure the earthquake was not in the temple!

Both of these references to an earthquake are near the time of the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
And you totally miss the intent of the author. 11:4-13 are written as a PARENTHESES so are not in John's chronology. It may appear to a beginning reader or someone who has not studied that the earthquake is just before the 7th trumpet, but in reality it will be 1260 days later, for in those few verses John has taken us all the way down the last half of the week to finish their testimony, see their death and then their resurrection. If you notice, there is a great earthquake at the 7th vial. This is another look at that SAME earthquake. It happens 1260 days plus 3 1/2 days after the Two Witnesses begin their testimony.

Rev_16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

This is the same earth shattering earthquake that we had in chapter 6.
Ha ha! How CAN IT BE? read the description again. You are just skimming over it and not understanding the words. You really need to remove your preconceived glasses and throw them away.

The following verses show the connections between chapter 6 and the later chapters through the events on the Day of the Lord.

Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

(Connects the Day of the Lord to Rev. 6)

Joe_2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

(Connects the Day of the Lord to Rev. 6)
WRONG! How do we see the moon? Does it generate any light so we can see it? Of course not. We can see the moon ONLY when the light from the sun reflects off of it and comes to the earth. Therefore, when the sun is darkened, as if God just turned off the switch, the moon disappears. It too is darkened so we cannot see it. On the other hand, a blood moon is EASY to see. These are TWO SEPARATE signs and they come at TWO DIFFERENT times and they are for TWO DIFFERENT purposes. Again you are just not reading these things with understanding.

Joe_3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. (What valley?)
DECISION. Is that not exactly what it says? Where will the battle of Armageddon be fought? Will it not be in the valley of Megiddo? Joel is making reference to the battle of Armageddon. I think Joel is saying they should all think this through more thoroughly: do they REALLY wish to fight God?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(the Day of the Lord)
Does this really mean that the ENTIRE day of the Lord will be the burning up of earth - or the great battle of Armageddon? Of course not! If the DAY began at the 6th seal where John tells us it will, and then continues on through the entire 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, wouldn't then the battle be fought IN the day of the Lord? Maybe you don't understand that this will be a VERY LONG day!


Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(Connects in to 2nd Peter 3:10 and 1st Thess. chapter 5)
.

No, since He will be coming TWICE MORE. And BOTH TIMES He will come as a thief.

 

[BABerean2]

Food for thought : which side of this issue spends more time telling everyone what simply worded scriptures do not mean .

It would be the side that promotes the doctrine John Darby brought to America, less than 200 years ago.

YouTube and forums like this are having an impact, because the truth is now available for all to see.

How many evangelical church bodies have told those sitting in the pews that the doctrine they are teaching was brought to America by John Darby ? What are they afraid of?

How many Christian TV shows on TBN or the other Christian networks have exposed this truth, instead of pushing John Darby's doctrine?


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
.

 

[Douggg]

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

Now where in Revelation 20 are you getting that there are 7 years of this present earth following Satan's last rebellion? In Revelation 20, all of them who surround Israel and Jerusalem - are destroyed by fire

It doesn't match Bible2. In Ezekiel 39, Gog/Magog, pre-trib, a sixth of Gog's army are turned back.

 

[iamlamad]

It would be the side that promotes the doctrine John Darby brought to America, less than 200 years ago.

YouTube and forums like this are having an impact, because the truth is now available for all to see.

How many evangelical church bodies have told those sitting in the pews that the doctrine they are teaching was brought to America by John Darby ? What are they afraid of?

How many Christian TV shows on TBN or the other Christian networks have exposed this truth, instead of pushing John Darby's doctrine?


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
.

What side finds to very remotely connected things and then says, "prove by scripture they are not the same thing" - all the while NEVER proving they ARE the same.

 

[iamlamad]

In case you missed it: over 250 pages and nothing has been solved.

 

[Jack Terrence]

He was talking about every stone, every building, everywhere,: "ALL these things"

NO he was NOT speaking about every stone. He was speaking about the stones that the disciples were talking about. They marveled at the grandeur of the stones that ADORNED the buildings. So Jesus says, "All these things [you marvel at]...." The disciples weren't marveling at the worthless stones.

"All these things" refers to all that the disciples SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED. Language requires no more than that.

It sure is funny how you guys will depart from your principles when they work against you. Jesus said, "All these things shall come upon THIS generation."

You have been disproven.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Revelation 11:18 is a prophecy or foretelling of future events. Another example is the several times it is written "Babylon is fallen, is fallen." It is prophecy until it comes to pass. Do you understand why it is said twice each time? I don't. I cannot call a prophecy as an overlap.

But why interpret it as prophecy and not as the same point in time being portrayed in multiple visions?

One guy said "back-peddling." I just don't believe it. Probably the worst are those that think the seals, trumpets and vials are all parallel events.

No comment.

Maybe arbitrary but still true. You just don't know it yet.

You tell me: when the goats are proved goats, are they not judged at that moment then are cast into everlasting fire? I call that being judged.

Of course I call that being judged. Jesus said that happens when he comes in power and glory. The sheep get their reward and the goats get their punishment at the same event according to what he said.

Heaven may be in layers. It is just possible that when all is removed we find heaven is close enough to see. I know of a little girl that went to heaven at 4 1/2 years old, and when she came back to earth, she could just look up and SEE heaven. Perhaps it was a continuous vision, or perhaps she really was seeing into heaven. Her pastor ask her how she could play when whenever she looked up she could see heaven. She said, "I just don't look up." You see, know on really knows what it means for "heaven" to roll up as a scroll. It is certainly NOT the stars being rolled up.

No comment.

It is written as it is written. John (and God giving the vision) was extremely careful to write in a chronological manner. Except for parentheses and prophesies, everything in one chapter will happen after events in a previous chapter and before the events in a later chapter. That is just the way it was written. You may not believe it now, but when these events begin, they will happen in the very order they are written.

Again, John may have written down the visions in the order he saw them, but that does not necessitate that the contents of the visions must be exclusive from each other on the overall timeline or that the events therein must occur in the same order that John saw the visions containing them.

It would seem to me that you have already decided that things must occur in a certain order, and thus you interpret that there must be multiple judgments, multiple comings of Christ, multiple bodily resurrections... the Church has not historically agreed with you though. The most historic belief of the Church is that Christ will return once to judge the living and the dead and to create the new heaven and earth. Your beliefs and the statements you make seem very modern and novel, as far as I can tell.

 

[keras]

In case you missed it: over 250 pages and nothing has been solved.

We have discussed the end times prophesies for years, with barely any consensus. There is no doubt that God has confused our minds and made it virtually impossible for anyone to gain a complete understanding of His plans. Isaiah 29:9-14
The Lord says: Only when My people see what I have done for them, will they sanctify My Name. Then those who have erred will understand and those who argued will learn the truth. Isaiah 29:23-24
So: Wait for the Day, the Day the Lord will judge and punish the nations, Isaiah 34:1-5, Psalms 110:5-6, Revelation 6:12-17
The Lord has restrained Himself for a long time, Isaiah 42:14, there is coming a Day when the Lord will take action, Isaiah 42:15, Isaiah 63:1-6, then He will lead His people and those who couldn't figure out the prophesies, will at last understand. Isaiah 42:16-18
Read the wonderful words of Isaiah 49:8-13

 

[Dave Watchman]

Praise the Lord someone else understands this too!

Mark 13:1-2, Matthew 24:1-2 and Luke 21:5-6 are not parallel verses. Three different prophetic scriptures at three different locations, at three different time with three different audiences.

I wonder as well why more people can't see this.

Luke 21 (KJV)

And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.​

If Jesus has to "look up" to see a poor widow, He must be sitting down. ( Unless the poor widow is 6'4" tall.) The "treasury" consists of containers that are on the periphery of the women's court which is at ground level of the first section of the inner court of the Temple. So in verses 5 and 6, they are looking at the "stones" of the Temple from the inside of the building.

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.​

Now notice in Matthew 24, Jesus "went out" and is "departing the Temple". He is walking away from the Temple looking at the "stones" from the outside. To this day the trip from the Temple mount, down the Kidron valley and up to the mount called Olivet would be about a 22 minute walk for a fit person. So it had to be after this trip that "He sat upon the mount of Olives".

Matthew 24(KJV)

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
​

Re: distance (walk or taxi) between mount of olives and temple
"By foot to the closest gate up to the Temple Mount about 25 minutes. The only way to go by taxi part of the way is to go up to Mt Olives by taxi and ask him to wait and drive you down to Lions Gate and from there walk about 5-7 minutes to the closest gate accessible to Moslems. There are no taxis just hanging around on Mt Olives.

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowTopi..._and_temple-Jerusalem_Jerusalem_District.html

This is a view from David’s palace looking down into the Kidron Valley. The Mount of Olives and its three summits can be seen to the right running along the Kidron Valley. The southeast corner of the Temple Mount can be seen on the left edge of the photo.

 

[iamlamad]

But why interpret it as prophecy and not as the same point in time being portrayed in multiple visions?

No comment.

Of course I call that being judged. Jesus said that happens when he comes in power and glory. The sheep get their reward and the goats get their punishment at the same event according to what he said.

No comment.

Again, John may have written down the visions in the order he saw them, but that does not necessitate that the contents of the visions must be exclusive from each other on the overall timeline or that the events therein must occur in the same order that John saw the visions containing them.

It would seem to me that you have already decided that things must occur in a certain order, and thus you interpret that there must be multiple judgments, multiple comings of Christ, multiple bodily resurrections... the Church has not historically agreed with you though. The most historic belief of the Church is that Christ will return once to judge the living and the dead and to create the new heaven and earth. Your beliefs and the statements you make seem very modern and novel, as far as I can tell.

Do we not consider this verse as being fulfilled in the verse of mention?
6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

I could post a similar verse for each of the seals, each of the trumpets and each of the vials. In each of these verses we find that the event takes place right where John wrote of it. We know this because no where else in the book do we read of any of the seals or any of the trumpets or any of the vials being opened, trumpeted, or poured out.

Yet we can find other places in the book where:
"thy wrath has come," (Came at the 6th seal)
"the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (after the 1000 years)
"give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints" (Start of Rev. 20)
"destroy them which destroy the earth." (ongoing from this point, and started at the great earthquake seal 6)

the events therein must occur in the same order that John saw the visions containing them.
They are written in an order. You must prove the order is wrong if you think it is wrong. Good luck with that for I am sure they are in the very order these things will take place.

It would seem to me that you have already decided that things must occur in a certain order
Yes, of course the VERY WAY IT IS WRITTEN. It makes perfect sense as it is written. Why then rearrange a perfect book?

multiple judgments
They are very plainly written, as in for example, the sheep and goat judgment and the parable of the tares judgment.

multiple comings of Christ
I go by what is written. I cannot in good conscience find that what Paul wrote about the rapture fits anywhere else in Rev. but at the 6th seal. I cannot in good conscience believe that God would beat up His beloved. I cannot in good conscience ignore the verses telling of of an escape. I simply cannot in good conscience put all the scriptures of His coming into one coming.

the Church has not historically agreed with you though
The church went through the dark ages when they knew almost nothing of the Word. But God has been steadily revealing truth for many years. The church in general knows FAR MORE now that say 100 years ago. Some however cling tightly to things of the past.

It is sad, but those who got in on Luther's enlightenment clung so tightly to his revelations that they missed most of the moves of God since that date. We still have died in the wool Lutherans that ignored the move of the Holy Spirit in dead churches in the 60's and 70's.
There were some that immediately accepted the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Azusa St around 1900. Several denominations came from that move of God. Yet, when the Holy Spirit came again in the 60's with fresh oil from the Holy Spirit, most of those denominations had NOTHING to do with the fresh move of the Holy Spirit.

Before Azusa St revival, there was a great Methodist revival with George Whitefield and John and Charles Wesley. Millions came to be born again. Yet these same people camped SO FIRMLY on John Wesley's doctrine many though the Azusa St. Revival in California was of the devil and very few got in on it.

Camping out on a move of God and ignoring the next move seems to be habit. Therefore I don't worry about what people believed a hundred years ago. I want to be so in tune with the Holy Spirit that I WON'T MISS His next move.

 

[Dave Watchman]

NO he was NOT speaking about every stone. He was speaking about the stones that the disciples were talking about. They marveled at the grandeur of the stones that ADORNED the buildings. So Jesus says, "All these things [you marvel at]...." The disciples weren't marveling at the worthless stones.

"All these things" refers to all that the disciples SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED. Language requires no more than that.

It sure is funny how you guys will depart from your principles when they work against you. Jesus said, "All these things shall come upon THIS generation."

It can be confusing but the one thing that you can be sure of is that the "generation" from chapter 23 is not the same "generation" from chapter 24. He's not talking about the "scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites" during the Olivet discourse. He's talking about the signs of His coming, and of the end of the world.

Luke 21 was almost going to be the Olivet but for some reason Jesus stops at verse 12 "but before all this" and begins to speak about the disciples immediate future. I don't know why He interrupted the Olivet material but that in itself serves as proof to "all these things" encompassing much more than just a handful of 1st century structures.

Luke 21 was written in a day of the Lord style prophetic architecture where the chapter starts off with the first 1/3 speaking of end times, then at verse 12 switching to 1st century and then at verse 25 returning back to the subject of end times.

The way to read this is:

wars and commotions, be not terrified:
for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
(WW1)

Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
(WW2)

great earthquakes shall be in divers places,
and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights
and great signs shall there be from heaven.
(End Time Tribulation)
​

Then at Verse 12: "But before all these" He stops talking about the end of the world and begins speaking to the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem. The phrase: "But before all these" serves as a line of demarcation that separates the future time of trouble from the 1st century persecution:

they shall lay their hands on you,
and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues,
and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.​

And then at verse 25 He switches back to end times like in the style of Isaiah 13 where the day of the lord prophecy switches from near to far and back again. .

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.

and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
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You have been disproven.

How?