Why do people believe in a Rapture?

[Psalm3704]

Hi, welcome to CF's Endtimes and Prophecy Forum. Got two questions and a request to ask you.

1 Corinthians 15 tells us this will be at the last trumpet. There are seven trumpets in Revelation, so--the 7th. Therefore, Christians will be here during the Tribulation, as Christ told us in Matthew 24 (note: the gathering of the elect is after the Tribulation). Paul said the same thing in 2 Thess 2.

1st Question: Are you telling us the 7th trumpet sounds immediately after the tribulation: Matthew 24:29-31?

Request: Please show us where in 2nd Thess 2 or anywhere in the book of 2nd Thessalonians Paul was referring to the rapture.

Absolutely!

Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are both about the days of the Son of Man (Jesus), when He is revealed (Luke 17:22, 24, 26, 30) in His glory. It also called the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:27, 36, 37, 39, 42, 44).

2nd Question: Do you know the difference in the timeline between "Daniel's 70th Week" and "A Time of Jacob's Trouble?"

Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse paralleling Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is found in Luke 21, not Luke 17.

Basically I'm just asking if you know what Luke 17 is.



.

 

[Luke17:37]

I believe that these are two different events. In 1 Thes 4:16-18 Jesus catches up or gathers believers that are dead and alive' in Christ' to meet him in the air just like the text says. In the Matt 24:31, the angels do the gathering. this event will be after the tribulation and I believe that Jesus will be separating the sheep from the goats on the earth at this time. Look at Matt 25:32-46.

In Matthew 13, you find the parable of the tares and the parable of the dragnet. Both repeat these sentiments:
1) The righteous and wicked are growing in the same place
2) Let them grow together until the harvest
3) First, gather the wicked to be burned
4) Then, gather the righteous.

So, we who the Lord has mercifully saved will mingle with the wicked until their destruction. They aren't destroyed before the Tribulation.

There's no biblical reason for you to differentiate 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24. Jesus is going to do the commanding of his angels, therefore He gathers His elect, whether or not angels are involved.

Jesus' return is covered in Revelation 19 and in Revelation 20 it talks about the millennium where Jesus reigns while Satan is chained. Specifically in Revelation 20:4-6 it talks about the beheaded being raised to life and ruling with Christ during the 1,000 years. This is called the First Resurrection, and they are blessed for being part of it. It's at the end of the Tribulation, so there's no way 1 Thessalonians 4 could occur before the Tribulation... otherwise, it would be the second resurrection, since these beheaded are killed during the Tribulation because of the Word of God and because they don't take the mark of the beast. Since elsewhere (1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15) the resurrection of the righteous is described as the entire Church, I'm convinced it is--it's just that God probably has special jobs in His millennial kingdom for those who are beheaded during the Tribulation and that's why they are highlighted. It also places a marker on the timing of the first resurrection/rapture, as I explained. The resurrection of the wicked, and any righteous that die in the millennium, will not occur until after the millennium, Revelation 20:11-15. The sheep and goats separation is at the second resurrection, the final judgment after the millennial reign of Christ.
(Christians and non-Christians are obviously treated differently at the return of the Christ, too.)

You care about truth right? That's why you follow Jesus.
His Word is truth. The words of Scripture matter. God is not a God of confusion, but He wrote the parables because He wanted to teach the elect and keep the truth-haters in the dark (see 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11). I think end times teaching is like that. It's not super complicated, but there are lots of differing voices--how do you learn the truth? 1) You seek God honestly and wholeheartedly and ask Him for understanding. 2) You believe His Word (all of it, in its clearest context). 3) You read His Word.

I'm praying you are a lover of truth... even if it means the possibility of facing hard realities in your relationship with Christ. If so, please read on.

Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are both about the days of the Son of Man (Jesus), when He is revealed (Luke 17:22, 24, 26, 30) in His glory. It also called the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:27, 36, 37, 39, 42, 44).

So, concerning that day (the day of Jesus return), look at what Jesus said in Luke 17:

Luke 17:31-37
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

I was preconditioned to believe that Jesus was talking about a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church when I would get to verses 34-36. One day when I was reading it, I stopped at verse 37. I could not understand what Jesus was talking about. It seemed like He changed the subject or went into some mysterious allegory. I thought, "Eagles (or vultures) eating the bodies of Christians sounds dishonorable" (it is, by the way... see 2 Samuel 2:4–7, Deuteronomy 21:22–23, 2 Kings 9:10, Revelation 11:7-10, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Amos 2:1, 1 Kings 21:24, Jeremiah 7:30-34 (v 33.), Ezekiel 39:1-6 (v.4), Ezekiel 39:17-20). "Also, doesn't it say that we will not all die, but we will all be changed (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54)? Why would bodies of Christians be left anyway?"
These things bothered me, and so I sought the Lord with all my heart, begging for understanding of what Jesus meant by "where the carcasses are, there the vultures will gather." The Lord answered my prayer!

Within a week, I realized this phrase was also found in Matthew 24, so I examined them together, hoping for some insight.

Matthew 24:23-28
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Jesus is comparing the false returns of Christ with the genuine marks of Christ's return. As everyone sees lightning that flashes from east to west, so everyone will see His return, so it would not be missed or limited to people who exist in a certain geographical or spatial location (e.g., desert, inner room). Jesus repeats this in Luke also, in the passage below.

Jesus warns people not to believe proclamations that He has returned. (Matthew 24:23, 26). These profuse warnings are also given in Luke (17:23):

Luke 17:20-24
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

That's pretty straightforward, right? So, next we'll look at a biblical example Jesus tells us is like the return of Christ--the days of Noah.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Matthew 28:36-44
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

In these passages are the key to understanding the identity of the carcasses, who are taken. Did you see it? Here it is again.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The taken in the context of the flood were the wicked, who were killed/destroyed when the floodwaters came.

So, reading Luke 17 again:

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

When one person is taken and the other is left, you know where the person who's left is. The disciples question, "Where, Lord?" was not about the left, but the taken. Now we understand that Jesus was saying that they would die and vultures would eat their carcasses. So these passages are not about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church--it's about the two true signs of His return:
1) It will be visible to everyone; and,
2) People will die, and vultures will feast on their carcasses.

This is also exactly how it is described in Revelation at Jesus' return:

Revelation 19:17-18
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

Revelation 19:21
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The revelation described here was the catalyst for my questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I dug into the Word until I became convinced there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Jesus will resurrect the dead in Christ and gather or rapture His church at the end of the Tribulation, also known as the return of Christ.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

May God bless you.

 

[iamlamad]

Ok.

Right, which in my mind indicates a degree of parallelism.

By your logic, every mention of Christ's coming in the bible could be a distinct event.

It does not make sense that God's wrath would be come more than once, or that the time to judge the dead could come four times as you claim (Revelation 6, Revelation 11, Revelation 20 two times.)

Please explain how those are separate judgments, when Jesus plainly stated that the "harvest is the end of the world" and the sheep and the goats are divided when he comes in power and glory, which he also stated in response to a question about the end of the world.

So just how many do you think there are?

No comment.

Good observation.

Actually John has 6 different parallel paths going at the same time. But what can a writer do if several things are happening at once? He cannot wrote all 6 at the same time!

Here are the parallels:
1. 42 months of trampling
2. 1260 days of testifying
3. 1260 days of fleeing / protection
4. 3.5 years of feeding and protection
5. 42 months of authority
6. John's main narrative timeline.

I believe John (and God showing the vision) showed us these 5 parallels of the last half of the week in the exact order the countdown will begin. In other words, the countdown for the trampling will begin before the countdown for the authority. I understand that all these are parallel paths to the end of the week. However, John only gives us in depth information on two of the first five parallel paths and that is for the Two witnesses, and the 42 months for the Beast. I consider much of chapter 13 as a parenthesis. Why? Because the start of chapter 14 is still close to the midpoint, not the end of the week. If we ignore these parentheses John's chronology is just straight through the week. However, most readers miss all of the parentheses so have very wild theories on John's chronology.

I am convinced that Jesus will come twice more.

It does not make sense that God's wrath would be come more than once

Why would you think that? God's wrath begins at the beginning of the week and continues on through the week. And Jesus is angry when He comes. So I see just ONE but continued. It takes a while to subdue anger when the cause for the anger continues: people refuse to repent.

You are missing something! The sheep and goat judgment are for those ALIVE.
The parable of the tares will be for those ALIVE.

If these are cast straight into the lake of fire, they will be judged only once. if they are cast into hell, they will be judged twice. Is there a verse saying people can only be judged once? Do you believe what John wrote of the white throne judgment for all who are in hell today?

 

[iamlamad]

...Why would anyone who truly believes in the ministry of Christ be left behind over what is essentially a minor disagreement? And, for that matter, why would God take his church away from the Earth before the Tribulation, and yet leave the 144,000 to be persecuted until Christ returns? And why does any of that MATTER when the entire reason for our continued presence on Earth is is spread the Word of God to the four corners of the globe, to every nation and every tribe, so that ever tongue might proclaim Him Lord and every knee might bow before Him?

Really, I'd like to know.

You have missed it in a couple of places. It is my guess that the 144,000 missed the rapture simply because they did not yet believe that Jesus was their Messiah at that point. But after the rapture, they got very wise quickly and believed. Perhaps they were allowed to SEE the raptured church leaving? They are sealed for their protection from the trumpet judgments and are raptured to heaven around the midpoint of the week. They are are protected from His wrath while here, and then removed.

I will agree God's will for us now is to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in spreading the gospel. But His will for those left behind is to be overcome. I did not write it, Daniel and John did. Perhaps those left behind will spread the gospel before they lose their head. John does not tell us - not even for the 144,000. Did you notice that the angels in Rev. 14 DO take the gospel to every perhaps in their own language?

Now, why would some who believe be left behind? First Jesus made it plain that lukewarm believers will be left behind. Either we SELL OUT to Him or we will be left behind. He is not coming for lukewarm believers. He warned us many times to be watching. He never said exactly what would happen for those that fail to watch. However, I know that we get NOTHING from heaven without faith. Therefore I think those who cannot believe in His pretrib coming simply will not have faith to be raptured. How can they if they don't believe in it?

Then we have the five foolish virgins. They HAD oil in their lamps, so if the oil is to represent the Holy Spirit, which I believe it does, the foolish virgins were left because of a SHORTAGE of the Holy Spirit. The bible speaks of the Holy Spirit WITHIN as our spirit is the "candle" of the Lord. The all had the Holy Spirit within, I believe. But the bible also speaks of the Holy Spirit UPON as in the anointing - called in Acts the baptism with the Holy Spirit. MUCH of the church world ignores that part of the bible. It is very possible then that those 5 foolish virgins rejected being filled with the Holy Spirit to get their "extra" oil.

 

[iamlamad]

Everyone who is a true believer in our Savior Jesus Christ will be raptured. I believe that ones end time view is not a qualification on if a person will be raptured or not. It says in Thes 4 : 16-18 that all the dead and alive' in Christ' will be raptured. It is not a works issue.

As for the 144,000 , these are Jewish men who become believers in Christ who are sealed and saved after the 2 witnesses declare the gospel message. The are saved at the beginning of the tribulation and are protected by God. They are used by God to spread the gospel to an unbelieving world.

is obedience a "works" issue?

 

[iamlamad]

And if you compare Luke 17 and Matthew 24 side by side, you will see the context of the taken (hint: look for Noah).

And yet, when Paul's rapture takes place, some will be TAKEN by the Holy Spirit and Jesus. John 14 tells us where they will be taken.

 

[iamlamad]

Absolutely!

Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are both about the days of the Son of Man (Jesus), when He is revealed (Luke 17:22, 24, 26, 30) in His glory. It also called the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:27, 36, 37, 39, 42, 44).

So, concerning that day (the day of Jesus return), look at what Jesus said in Luke 17:

Luke 17:31-37
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

I was preconditioned to believe that Jesus was talking about a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church when I would get to verses 34-36. One day when I was reading it, I stopped at verse 37. I could not understand what Jesus was talking about. It seemed like He changed the subject or went into some mysterious allegory. Eagles (or vultures) eating the bodies of Christians sounds dishonorable (it is, by the way... see 2 Samuel 2:4–7, Deuteronomy 21:22–23, 2 Kings 9:10, Revelation 11:7-10, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Amos 2:1, 1 Kings 21:24, Jeremiah 7:30-34 (v 33.), Ezekiel 39:1-6 (v.4), Ezekiel 39:17-20). Also, doesn't it say that, we will not all die, but we will all be changed (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54)? Why would bodies of Christians be left anyway? These things bothered me, and so I sought the Lord with all my heart, begging for understanding of what Jesus meant by "where the carcasses are, there the vultures will gather." The Lord answered my prayer!

Within a week, I realized this phrase was also found in Matthew 24, so I examined them together, hoping for some insight.

Matthew 24:23-28
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Jesus is comparing the false returns of Christ with the genuine marks of Christ's return. As everyone sees lightning that flashes from east to west, so everyone will see His return, so it would not be missed or limited to people who exist in a certain geographical or spatial location (e.g., desert, inner room). Jesus repeats this in Luke also, in the passage below.

Jesus warns people not to believe proclamations that He has returned. (Matthew 24:23, 26). These profuse warnings are also given in Luke (17:23):

Luke 17:20-24
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

That's pretty straightforward, right? So, next we'll look at a biblical example Jesus tells us is like His return--the days of Noah.

Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

Matthew 28:36-44
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

In these passages are the key to understanding the identity of the carcasses, who are taken. Did you see it? Here it is again.

Luke 17:26-27
26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Matthew 24:38-39
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The taken in the context of the flood were the wicked, who were killed/destroyed when the floodwaters came.

So, reading Luke 17 again:

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

When one person is taken and the other is left, you know where the person who's left is. The disciples question, "Where, Lord?" was not about the left, but the taken. Now we understand that Jesus was saying that they would die and vultures would eat their carcasses. So these passages are not about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church--it's about the two true signs of His return:
1) It will be visible to everyone; and,
2) People will die, and vultures will feast on their carcasses.

This is also exactly how it is described in Revelation at Jesus' return:

Revelation 19:17-18
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

Revelation 19:21
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The revelation described here was the catalyst for my questioning the pre-tribulation rapture. I dug into the Word until I became convinced there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. Jesus will resurrect the dead in Christ and gather or rapture His church at the end of the Tribulation, also known as the return of Christ.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

May God bless you.

It is a good thing then, that Paul's rapture will take place around 7 years before this coming you describe as after the trib of those days.

 

[iamlamad]

Interestingly the pre-tribulation rapture promotors (Lamad and Short Timer) do not believe that Jesus will Judge the Church at His Coming AFTER the Tribulation even if you have proved your point with these verses.

Bible2, the copy / paste expert, gets some things right, but misses it completely on the pretrib rapture - denying it completely. He completely misses the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.

By the way, NO ONE has ever proved the truth as being false with bible verses taken in their context. How could anyone prove against TRUTH? Oh, don't miss this: MANY here THINK they prove it to their own satisfaction. When the pretrib rapture happens, many left behind will wonder what happened.

 

[Luke17:37]

Hi, welcome to CF's Endtimes and Prophecy Forum. Got two questions and a request to ask you.
.

1st Question: Are you telling us the 7th trumpet sounds immediately after the tribulation: Matthew 24:29-31?
.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Similar to 1 Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians describes the event Christians typically call the rapture. The last trumpet in the Revelation is the seventh trumpet. And this is what is proclaimed:

Revelation 11:17
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. (PAST TENSE)
18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great, (PRESENT TENSE)
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Incidentally, my theory (unless I live long enough to see something else, I'll stick with it) is that the trumpets and bowls are tied together and are not sequential. I believe Jesus returns after the seventh trumpet and seventh bowl.
7th Trumpet:
"...And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail." (11:19)
Seventh Bowl:
Revelation 16:17-18
"17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth... 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

Request: Please show us where in 2nd Thess 2 or anywhere in the book of 2nd Thessalonians Paul was referring to the rapture.
.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away [apostasia] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The gathering of the elect to the Lord is the same as the resurrection/rapture. It's also the same as the second coming of Christ. Paul refers to both together as, "that day."

Matthew 24:31
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2nd Question: Do you know the difference in the timeline between "Daniel's 70th Week" and "A Time of Jacob's Trouble?"
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Yes.

I won't debate questions of semantics. It's a waste of 000s and 111s.

Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse paralleling Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is found in Luke 21, not Luke 17.

Basically I'm just asking if you know what Luke 17 is.
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Do you realize how condescending your question comes across, Psalm3704? This might be our first and last conversation.

Yes, Luke 21 is about the Tribulation (similar to the details in Matthew 24), but so is Luke 17. Roughly the same content in Matthew 24 is found in Luke 17 and Luke 21 combined. Check it out for yourself.

 

[iamlamad]

Do you consider the vision of Margaret McDonald as being a move of the Holy Spirit ?
Remember that she is saying that the Coming of Jesus will not be seen by the natural eyes,which is contrary to what the Scriptures say.

Hmm. I was SURE I read that "every eye shall see Him." Typical pretrib thought is that the rapture will be invisible. I cannot find that in the scripture. Perhaps people on earth will see the Bride leave.

As far as you are concerned with your two coming of Jesus yet to come... well, one can ask from what spirit you and Short Timer get your source of inspiration ???

Our doctrine comes from simply understanding the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit, when He had Paul and John write. Most church folks would not recognize the Holy spirit if He came down the center aisle with a red hat on.

Matthew 24
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Does this not SOUND visible?

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
This is probably the aftermath of the parable of the tares.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

this is a DIFFERENT gathering. God is allowed to have more than one.

 

[iamlamad]

I believe that these are two different events. In 1 Thes 4:16-18 Jesus catches up or gathers believers that are dead and alive' in Christ' to meet him in the air just like the text says. In the Matt 24:31, the angels do the gathering. this event will be after the tribulation and I believe that Jesus will be separating the sheep from the goats on the earth at this time. Look at Matt 25:32-46.

Good point! Every human MUST be gathering for this judgment.

 

[Luke17:37]

It is a good thing then, that Paul's rapture will take place around 7 years before this coming you describe as after the trib of those days.

Absolutely not. Read it again.

 

[iamlamad]

When does 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 take place? ....the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.....This is the Return for Jesus' Millennial reign. Thinking this happens at any earlier time, is incorrect and wrongly interpreted by those who adhere to a pre-trib rapture.

You make a bold statement but you cannot back this up with scripture rightly divided. It is only a poor theory. If you study 1 Thes. 5 Paul tells us the timing, and it will not fit your theory.

The sequence according to prophecy is: Jesus will appear over the armies gathered at Armageddon. Revelation 16:14 He will destroy them by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21 He will chain up Satan. Revelation 20:2 Then He will go to Jerusalem where the souls of all the martyr's, that He brought with Him from under the Altar, Revelation 6:9-11,
Sorry, but those under the alter are mostly GENTILE Christians are and CHURCH AGE martyrs that were told they most wait for the final church age martyr, which will be the martyr JUST BEFORE Paul's pretrib rapture. The next martyr will be a 70th week of Day of the Lord martyr.


will be resurrected. Revelation 20:4b He sends out His angels to gather all His living people from every corner of the world. Matthew 24:31. The main group will be those who were taken to a place of safety on earth.

This is pure human reasoning with no scriptural backing. It is very likely these gathered here are being gathered for the sheep and goat judgment.

Revelation 12:14
The cleansing and then the re-dedication of the Temple will take 30 days. Daniel 12:11
His righteous people will all join with Him for the Wedding Feast, Revelation 19:6-9, that may last for 75 days. Daniel 12:12

Pure fiction! The marriage and supper will take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends.


The Lord will become King over all the earth.....Jerusalem will be inhabited , never again to be destroyed. Zechariah 14:9-11

This much is true.

 

[iamlamad]

Absolutely not. Read it again.

Been there and done that. I know what you wrote and simply find it fiction. There is a lot of fiction on this thread.
Paul TOLD US the timing of his rapture. It fits perfectly at the 6th seal in Revelation and NO WHERE ELSE....especially after the trib. According to Paul, HIS pretrib coming and the dead in Christ rising will be the trigger for the DAY and for His wrath. That is at the 6th seal.

As a clincher, John then records seeing the raptured church in chapter 7, around the throne. How much more proof do you need?

 

[Luke17:37]

It is a good thing then, that Paul's rapture will take place around 7 years before this coming you describe as after the trib of those days.

A good thing?
Well, God and I don't always agree on what's good. I equate good with comfortable--in my flesh--but He equates it with the saving of souls. So, while I'd love to die in my sleep or be ushered to the clouds, He might send someone to remove my head and maximize the spread of the gospel with my last words (of the Holy Spirit) and my blood. Ultimately, God's my king. I'll follow Him no matter where He leads.

Paul doesn't rapture anyone, and nowhere does he describe a secret rapture of the church. The resurrection/rapture is consistently presented as after the Tribulation, in one way or another, but I'm probably wasting my breath, because it doesn't seem like you are open.

Are you afraid of losing your head? I don't like to think about it either. That's why I won't watch the ISIS beheading videos.

We don't get to choose God's plan. He wrote it before the world was made. I'm seeing all the mental gymnastics you have been going through in your posts to try to convince others (and yourself?) that there is a solid biblical basis for pre-tribulation rapture. I'm only on here because I am 100% convinced that the Church needs to be ready to overcome in the Tribulation. I would hate the Church if I was too busy or afraid to share.

One more thing. There are three back-to-back parables in Matthew 24-25, and they all highlight the perceived lateness (in the eyes of man) of Jesus' return. The only difference between the wise and foolish virgins is that the foolish assumed the bridegroom would come by a certain "early" time relative to his actual schedule. They didn't have enough oil (Holy Spirit) to endure the wait. They are unprepared and their lamps go out. Please, don't be one of them. Don't assume. There are no second chances. When the door is shut, it's shut for good (like Noah's Ark).

If you want to wrestle with God about why you were born in this generation or ask Him why He might allow His Church to go through such pain, wrestle "all night" if you have to. Pray. But, follow Him! He is worthy.

 

[Luke17:37]

Been there and done that. I know what you wrote and simply find it fiction. There is a lot of fiction on this thread.
Paul TOLD US the timing of his rapture. It fits perfectly at the 6th seal in Revelation and NO WHERE ELSE....especially after the trib. According to Paul, HIS pretrib coming and the dead in Christ rising will be the trigger for the DAY and for His wrath. That is at the 6th seal.

As a clincher, John then records seeing the raptured church in chapter 7, around the throne. How much more proof do you need?

The saints around the throne in Chapter 7 are the same as the martyrs in Chapter 6 who were clothed with white robes.

There is nothing else I will say then. I am not taking anything out of context. You won't see what you won't see. We all have choices. Bye iamlamad.

 

[Riberra]

Do you consider the vision of Margaret McDonald as being a move of the Holy Spirit ?
Remember that SHE is saying that the Coming of Jesus will not be seen by the natural eye,which is contrary to what the Scriptures say.

Hmm. I was SURE I read that "every eye shall see Him." Typical pretrib thought is that the rapture will be invisible. I cannot find that in the scripture. Perhaps people on earth will see the Bride leave.

[This is Margaret Macdonald's handwritten account of her 1830 Pre-Trib revelation, as included in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald of Port-Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. The italicized portions represent her account as it appears in shorter form in Norton's The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp 15-18.]

"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me.(1) I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.' I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed,

Source
http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html

I repeat my question,

-Do you still consider the vision of Margaret McDonald as being a move of the Holy Spirit ?
-Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit will say to someone in a vision that the Coming of Jesus will not be seen by everyone still alive on Earth.?

Jesus Himself said that every eyes will see His coming...

Matthew 24:29-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Bible2+]

Luke17:37 said in post 5234:

I dug into the Word until I became convinced there is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church.

That's right.

For nothing in the Bible teaches or requires one. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

--

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post 5239:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Regarding John 5:28-29, note that it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

 

[Bible2+]

iamlamad said in post 5244:

Then we have the five foolish virgins.

Regarding the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13), note that it shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

iamlamad said in post 5244:

- called in Acts the baptism with the Holy Spirit. MUCH of the church world ignores that part of the bible.

That's right.

For besides getting water baptized, believers can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). And they usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment they become believers. That is why Paul the apostle asked some believers: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

Believers usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism won't result in speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8,9,10,11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many believers haven't yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they haven't yet asked for it, under the principle of "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many believers haven't yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Believers can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.