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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Agreed. The last scripture you posted says it all.

    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
     
  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Agreed.
    Let's look at those texts.

    John 3:18
    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

    Mark 16:16
    Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Agreed.
    You raise a great point. We are transformed by our relationship with God. We become a new being in Him. This transformation is described as spiritual life, and stands in stark contrast to the state of spiritual death we were found in.
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Agreed.
    We are given a choice in this life.
    A choice to change our position in fallen humanity.
    An opportunity to choose eternal life in the here and now.

    This all becomes meaningless in the Universalist view.
    As if the choice had already been made for us.
    As if we are not a part of fallen humanity.
    As if the choice of eternal life in the here and now was a moot point.

    Why go into all the world to preach the gospel if everyone is already saved?
     
  5. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That's good. And let's add verse 20 to this passage.

    2 Corinthians 5:18-20
    All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
     
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint: There are indeed great gulfs. For lost sheep who the Master Shepherd has saved from destruction there is great rejoicing. Hearing His word and believing are both flowing from the Father who opens deaf ears and blind eyes. He also grants repentance, it does NOT originate within us!

    Our God is the God whose unlimited avenues of operation reach to the lowest hell!

    From Him the all, through Him the all, to Him the all
     
  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    PastorMark Post

    The main problem I see with the theodicy of the Greater Good is that it is a logical philosophical answer to a purely emotional question.

    People who turn away from God because of the problem of evil are burdened and tormented by the world as they see it. They are in a crisis in that they have to imagine an all powerful God who cares for all that we care about and knows when a single hair falls from our head yet by the state of things appears supremely aloof and unconcerned. I'm not saying this is true I'm just describing their dilemma.

    The idea of God allowing evil for a greater good is cold and hollow for these folks I think. BUT…lets look at the problem of evil in the light of the hope of Universalism.

    I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Rom 8:18

    If we expand that based on universalist theology suddenly we can offer a God who promises to give us all a beautiful forever with him.

    This is where I think Job is useful. Had he known that everything would be restored to him twice over would he have made so many dark existential conclusions?

    You say yea but he lost his kids! How does having more kids compensate for that pain? Well he has the hope that he will see them again in heaven.

    Hope is the salve that heals the wounds cut into our souls by the great mysteries of life and existence. We may not ever be able to explain why evil and suffering are allowed on this side of the grave. But having the hope of the great reconciliation of all things back to God makes it bearable.
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Good point.
    And there is only one name - given under heaven - by which we must be saved. (under heaven by that one name)

    Acts 4:12
    Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Right.
    With belief come s a positional change in our relationship with God.
    Fallen humanity has the opportunity in this life to receive salvation in the here and now.

    Universalism is a concept with an emotional basis. It doesn't hold up biblically.
    As someone pointed out earlier. Universalists believe that eternal is not eternal and punishment is not punishment. Thus that claim that there is no eternal punishment.

    Galatians 1:6-7
    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 11:4
    For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Why not stand and fight. The Bible is on our side. All they have in emotionalism to stand on.
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint: If you are here to fight with the Bible on your side, you will never engage poor old F.L. If however, you desire an expansion of your present grasp of the Holy, we will attempt to move in that direction.

    It has been a mere 62 years since the Master of Reconciliation touched my poor young life for the first time. As has already been posted, salvation is in the present progressive tense. It is awesome the depths of so great salvation!
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  12. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    That is exactly what I tried to tell Steve to 'not do' before sending him here. But he proved immediately that he is here to win. And he tries to do so with what man has taught, instead of seeking to learn what the Spirit would willingly teach, to anyone who is of a contrite heart. But after one PM post I 'felt' no future in entertaining him one on one. I thought you might do better' Fine Linen....sorry. But your first "spiritual judgment" after 'one post' from him, matched mine. :holy: So here WE are.

    But maybe it will hopefully breathe new life here, in your favorite thread. :) After all he's rang the bell of every other 'anti' with his myriad onslaught of posts, before even hearing a first response from lowly and lonely you. ;) The first thought I had seeing all his posts was that it looked a bit like emotional 'fear' to me. Because 'fear always rests in the strength of numbers.

    Indeed his very first post here was to agree with another when he said;
    I once had a pastor, upon finding out I was a UR/Uni believer, declare to me in disbelief...three years after we started coming; "How can you believe God will save everyone, you've brought more people into this church than almost anyone else." That totally baffled him. I told him it was because he didn't obviously did not understand Ultimate Reconciliation. And guess what? He never asked one question as to why I did.

    Listen to the confession of the quote above. Is he even saved? I thank God my life in him isn't a farce only because I believe in eternal hell as he testifies. But then, I don't serve God out of fear of eternal hell any more than I stay married out of fear of divorce. I serve Him because He FIRST loved me and he also "predestined, called, drew and ordained me to believe." IOW it was Him and His work for me to be saved in this age and not the ages to come. And I love Him back in return by doing what he calls all to do.

    Why 'do anything, but sin like hell' indeed? Since "out of the heart the mouth speaks" this quote doesn't speak well IMO. For what's in his heart is obviously not of God OR one pursuing salvation from the suicide of sin in THIS WORLD WE LIVE IN. For me, the whole purpose of being saved this side of glory was preached by Peter on the foundation day of the church.

    ACT 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

    How sad, this brother, and apparently agreeing Steve, both think that they are suffering because they aren't allowed to sin as they confess they would really like to.

    When I was 'truly' saved, I realized that I'd have been a Christian even if there wasn't any ETERNAL HELL, because my life in Christ was better than my life of sin in the world. Too bad most of Christianity doesn't experience the LIFE of Christ fully as I apparently do. They appear to be bound to give lip service motivated by the emotion of FEAR OF ETERNAL HELL.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Hillsage: I am presently engaged in a new post regarding a PastorMark who has presented amazing posts on a wee site.

    I stand amazed that our glorious God continues to call out an elect segment to bear the glory of the One whose ways are past finding out. If Saint Steve wants to begin a trip into the vast layers of the unspoken outer laminar spheres of the Father's glory perhaps a seal or two can be broken.

    I will attempt to get back to your post a little later. These are mighty days, the call of the Heavenlies continues for those who have ears to hear.

    Out of 12>>>3>>>out of 3>>>1

    Who leaned on the Master's breast.
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    PastorMark post

    The main problem I see with the theodicy of the Greater Good is that it is a logical philosophical answer to a purely emotional question.

    People who turn away from God because of the problem of evil are burdened and tormented by the world as they see it. They are in a crisis in that they have to imagine an all powerful God who cares for all that we care about and knows when a single hair falls from our head yet by the state of things appears supremely aloof and unconcerned.

    I'm not saying this is true I'm just describing their dilemma.

    The idea of God allowing evil for a greater good is cold and hollow for these folks I think. BUT…lets look at the problem of evil in the light of the hope of Universalism.

    I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Rom 8:18

    If we expand that based on universalist theology suddenly we can offer a God who promises to give us all a beautiful forever with him.

    This is where I think Job is useful. Had he known that everything would be restored to him twice over would he have made so many dark existential conclusions?

    You say yea but he lost his kids! How does having more kids compensate for that pain? Well he has the hope that he will see them again in heaven.

    Hope is the salve that heals the wounds cut into our souls by the great mysteries of life and existence. We may not ever be able to explain why evil and suffering are allowed on this side of the grave. But having the hope of the great reconciliation of all things back to God makes it bearable.

    https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/The Evangelical Universalist Forum
     
  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Hillsage: I grew up in the largest Protestant Church in Canada. At the ripe age of 12 I sat listening to the results of the sports venues and other things from the minister. I ached inside. At the ripe age of 15 I heard the glorious news that God loved me and wanted me for Himself. I could not get to the altar fast enough! He the mighty Deliverer started a process in that wee Gospel Church that ended agony and emptiness that only He can address.

    There are those who are trying to avoid hell, for me, it has always been avoiding empty.

    Come unto Me & I will give you rest
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Seriously?
    It seems that it is man who has taught that "eternal" is not eternal and "punishment" is not punishment. Thus watering down the clear warnings of eternal separation from God in the afterlife. Preferring instead "a trip into the vast layers of the unspoken outer laminar spheres of the Father's glory." (hocus pocus)

    And just to be clear, I have never suffered from a personal fear of hell for myself, but have instead been concerned with the very real threat of a Christless eternity for the lost. In fact I was called under that very circumstance. Thinking it good that others should "go forward" to receive Christ, the Father asked me, "If you think it is good for them, why haven't you done it?" A very captivating thought for an eight year old boy. I wasted no time to get down front and receive Him personally.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint: There is indeed punishment that flows from Abba. If, however, you place aidios before punishment you are very mistaken. You will also find there is no such thing as "eternal separation".

    The Father of all fathers indeed punishes, but it is NOT an end in itself but leading to change and transformation, NOT mindless torture.

    Your word for today= ta panta

    From Him ta panta, thru Him ta panta, in Him ta panta

    Greek-English Lexicon Of The New Testament by William F. Arndt & Wilbur Gingrich

    ta; pavnta.

    In the abs. sense of the whole of creation all things, the universe

    (Pla., Ep. 6 p. 323d tw'n pavntwn qeov"; hymn to Selene in EAbel, Orphica [1885] 294, 36 eij" se; ta; pavnta teleuta' [s. 2ad above]; Herm. Wr. 13, 17 t. ktivsanta ta; pavnta; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 208, Rer. Div. Her. 36, Somn. 1, 241; PGM 1, 212 kuvrie tw'n pavntwn; 4, 3077) Ro 11:36 (Musaeus in Diog. L. 1, 3 ejx eJno;" ta; pavnta givnesqai kai; eij" taujto;n ajnaluvesqai. Cf. Norden, Agn. Th. 240-50); 1 Cor 8:6a, b; 15:28a, b; Eph 3:9; 4:10b; Phil 3:21; Col 1:16a, b, 17>b (HHegermann, D. Vorstellung vom Schöpfungsmittler etc., TU 82, '61, 88ff); Hb 1:3; 2:10a, b; Rv 4:11; 1 Cl 34:2; PK 2 p. 13 (four times).

    —In the relative sense, indicated by the context, everything (Kupr. I p. 42 no. 29 ta;" stoa;" kai; ta; ejn aujtai'" pavnta; PGiess. 2, 14 [II bc] in a bill: ta; p.='everything taken together') ejn parabolai'" ta; pavnta givnetai everything (=all the preaching) is in parables Mk 4:11. Cf. Ac 17:25b; Ro 8:32b.

    Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming

    "And God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself, making peace through His blood, which was shed upon the Cross--to reconcile to Himself through Him, I say, things on earth and things in Heaven."
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Why would you question someone's salvation?
    In fact, what is salvation from the perspective of Universalism?
    The saved are no special class of people if everyone will ultimately be saved, right?

    I don't think that poster was saying life is a farce for him. (note the word "If")
    I think he was saying that life is a farce if what you are proclaiming is true.
    The poster can correct me if I have misread them.

    @PaulCyp1 said:
    If God is going to save all people, what is the purpose of this farce we call life on Earth?
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That's a pretty heavy-handed conclusion/accusation to lay on the two of us, simply for questioning your point of view. Seems more like a kneejerk reaction to falsely accuse the opposition.
     
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