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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    As I read through a very ordinary AUTHORIZED King James Bible, while trying to decide between damnationism, annihilationism and universalism, I began to suspect bad translation. Reading more, I began to see a pattern of bias toward Damnationism. However, at times there would be an inconsistency, and a beam of light would shine out from a verse or a few verses. This allowed me to dig to the bottom, concerning "hell," both linguistically and theologically. We may find, when this aeon is over, that the corruption of Hell theology is all part of God's plan for the present age.
  2. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Dear Lazarus: There is a constant in my concept of Father's Plan. He is the Source, the Guide & the Goal of the all, the ta panta. I am in complete agreement that when this aeon is over the theology of hell's corruption will be swallowed up with all aspects of death & death's domain.

    In the final analysis, His mighty purpose in the Lord Jesus Christ prevails. The sooner we begin to be aligned into Him, the sooner our being can be opened to the ongoing wonder of our great God.

    The Inescapable Love of God -Thomas Talbott-

    “The corrective effects of kolasis aionios last forever. But as a means to an end, it will not last any longer than is necessary to produce the end for which it exists in the first place. When we finally weary of our own selfishness, petty jealousies, and lust for power; when we learn at last, perhaps through bitter experience, that these lead only to ruin and cannot bring enduring happiness, that nothing short of union with God and reconciliation with others will satisfy our own deepest yearnings; when we discover that the Hound of Heaven has finally closed off every alternative to such a union, we shall then, each of us, finally embrace the destiny that is ours.”
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

  5. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    Here is a chapter from my book, which shows part of the pattern of bias I mentioned.


    In this chapter, I am going to adjust my focus from the general text of the Bible to a single term, “sheol,” generally defined as the realm, state or abode of the dead, apart from the literal grave. The decision to do so grew from a seed of suspicion, when verses with “hell” kept turning up, though it (hell) was translated from “sheol,” which was also often rendered by the much less theologically-loaded “grave” or “pit.” Was this honest translation or was there a slant to which verses were translated one way or the other? I started in Strong’s Concordance, but it said, “SHEOL, See HELL.” Consulting the entry for “Hell,” I had before me all the verses containing the word “Hell” in the KJV, from Deuteronomy to the Revelation (see my comments on pages 10 and 11). Now as I said much earlier, “sheol” is translated in the KJV three ways: grave, pit or hell, so we have our categories, and we can ignore instances where any of these three are derived from other words, such as those meaning the literal grave.

    First, here is a list of the verses with “sheol” translated as “grave” or “pit” in the KJV:

    And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him. Genesis 37:35

    And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 42:38

    And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him, ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:29

    It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave. Genesis 44:31

    But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. Numbers 16:30

    They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. Numbers 16:33

    The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. I Samuel 2:6

    Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave in peace. I Kings 2:6

    Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood. I Kings 2:9

    As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. Job 7:9

    O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14:13

    If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. Job 17:13

    They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Job 21:13

    Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned. Job 24:19

    For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalm 6:5

    O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. Psalm 30:3

    Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. Psalm 31:17

    Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. Psalm 49:14-15

    For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. Psalm 88:3

    What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. Psalm 89:48

    Our bones are scattered at the grave's mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth. Psalm 141:7

    Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: Proverbs 1:12

    The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough. Proverbs 30:16

    Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10

    Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. Song of Solomon 8:6

    Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. Isaiah 14:11

    I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave: I am deprived of the residue of my years. Isaiah 38:10

    For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. Isaiah 38:18

    Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. Ezekiel 31:15

    I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. Hosea 13:14

    Now for a list of verses, with “sheol” translated as “hell” – about an equal number of verses:

    For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22

    The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me; II Samuel 22:6

    It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Job 11:8

    Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. Job 26:6

    The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. Psalm 9:17

    For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalm 16:10

    The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me. Psalm 18:5

    Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Psalm 55:15

    For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. Psalm 86:13

    The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. Psalm 116:3

    If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Psalm 139:8

    Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell. Proverbs 5:5

    Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Proverbs 7:27

    But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Proverbs 9:18

    Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men? Proverbs 15:11

    The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Proverbs 15:24

    Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. Proverbs 23:14

    Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied. Proverbs 27:20

    Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 5:14

    Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:9

    Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:15

    Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isaiah 28:15

    And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. Isaiah 28:18

    And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell. Isaiah 57:9

    I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. Ezekiel 31:16-17

    The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword. Ezekiel 32:21

    And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living. Ezekiel 32:27

    Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down: Amos 9:2

    And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. Jonah 2:2

    Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people: Habakkuk 2:5

    Observations – Overall, I can think of no good reason to separate “sheol” as the translators have. They could have let “sheol” stand transliterated, to let it be understood by context and usage. However, they let about half the instances fall to the literal “grave” or “pit,” and about half to “hell.” I suppose they needed some support for their Hell in the Old Testament, for besides sheol-to-hell, there is so very little to go their way.

    In comparing the camp of “grave/pit” and the camp of “hell,” I find a strong tendency (not consistent) for “sheol” to be rendered as “grave” or “pit” when the context places the instance in the real world. The verses in the “hell” camp mostly lack context to connect them to the real world, but this is, again, not consistent. In the “hell” list of this chapter are Isaiah 57:9, Ezekiel 31:16-17, and Ezekiel 32:27, which have real world contexts. It might be useful for better understanding, to read each verse and mentally insert “hell” for “grave/pit,” and vice versa. I think the reader will see what I am saying about context.

    Besides context, there are solid reasons why some verses were placed in one camp or another, mostly theological reasons. Consider I Samuel 2:6 – I’m sure the translators would have been happy to have rendered it as, “…he bringeth down to hell…”, but what would they have done with the following, “…and bringeth up.”? It would have violated the doctrine and belief that damnation is final and irreversible. We can see the same thing going on with Psalms 30:3, 49:14-15, 89:48 and Hosea 13:14, all quoted in the “grave/pit” list.

    We have the same problem in reverse, in the “hell” list. Psalm 16:10’s “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell…,” should have been given over to the “grave/pit” camp, thus avoiding the ban on exit from Hell. As it reads, the translators made a mistake, from their point of view. We se it again in Psalm 86:13, Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2.

    The translators did make a few other mistakes. In our “hell” list is Deuteronomy 32:22, which depicts hellfire burning in the real world, out of its proper bounds. Lastly, we have Jonah’s prayer from “out of the belly of Hell.” Well, no, that should read, “out of the belly of the fish.” Let’s not forget where the prophet really was, but the translators forgot the context.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  6. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Dear Lazarus: It is evident you have spent considerable time on this. Much thanks.

  7. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Is it not strange the long seasons that can elapse on the back-side of the desert? Year by year falls into the great abyss, and at the juncture where we can no longer speak, and the great struggle to do the will of God vanishes into weakness and death, the Bush appears pulsating with Deity. It is there at the asamuth of death and weakness the Living One speaks.

    "Take off your shoes from off your feet"

    Holy ground! The place where dust and Divinity meet! It is there in absolute weakness and inability, the Lord manifests Himself as the God who raises the dead. The road into the Tree of Life is by way of the flaming swords swirling in every direction. Those who reach for the Tree will suffer the loss of the hand, the fingers, the grasp of all they are! And as the process of the swirling swords rage upon these ones, great loss is inflicted, for nothing, no one, comes to the other side the same as it enters..NOTHING!...NOTHING!...NOTHING!

    The great stages of the Living One's glory must be in degrees of doxa. We are changed from one degree of glory to another and another! It requires a thought beginning in the mind of the caterpillar that ultimately leads to the building of a cocoon from which caterpillars become butterflies, and dust moves from the road of life into the Divine One, described as "the Living", the "I am", not the I was, the I AM.

    It is this Heavenly Road that grasps us, the Heavenly One, the Source leading to the Road, the sustaining Guide of the Road, and the Goal of the Road. All things lead to Him, through Him and for Him! And by Him all things consist.

    It has taken me over 75 years to go a journey that could be accomplished in 11 days, but dust and Divinity must meet; the goal is not all the story, the path is of equal value in the I AM! Each of us are on different stages of our Father's drawing hand, some so wrapped up in themselves they cannot see the bush that is aflame and is not devoured. It is just a common bush for many, but

    "Earth's crammed with heaven, and every common bush afire with God; and only he who sees takes off his shoes. -Eliz. Barrett Browning-

  8. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Restoration (The Feast of Tabernacles)

    “The feast of tabernacles means the feast of in-gathering. It takes an eight day period to bring in the fullness of the in-gathering. Eight is the number of new beginnings in scripture or full restoration

    1 Corinthians 15 is the last chapter in the Bible. The fifteenth chapter clearly shows how great the totality of the feast of tabernacles will be.

    ‘As in Adam all die (every preacher will agree that all people are in Adam but few believe that the word all mean all in the second part of the verse) so in Christ all shall be made alive.’ Jesus is going to gather all together in Himself.

    He will have everyone in His nature.

    Everything that occurs, occurs in the plan and order of God. In 1 Corinthians 15 God shows that there are different orders. The highest order is Jesus Christ.

    Everything will, in time, be brought into Jesus Christ. All shall be gathered into Him. When this is done then Jesus, the Son, will turn all over to the Father. It is then we find that time ends, for God becomes All in all (verse 28). -Chas. Weller-

    God All & in all
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    1 Cor. 15:24, 28

    24 “Then THE END will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

    28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.”

    Some selected quotes on the distinction between time and eternity, from Charles H. Pridgeon’s, Is Hell Eternal or Will God’s Plan Fail? (1920):

    All time will one day be converted into eternity. Time is allied to motion; eternity to rest. Time is made up of successive moments. The quality of eternity is its simultaneousness.

    Eternity is the opposite of time. It signifies a new state of things, a different condition; it denotes timelessness, that is, the absence of time.

    Many think that the past is irrevocable. It is to us, but not to our God. There is no such thing as time succession to Him. He can deal with our past or our future as easily as our present, for it is all alike present to Him. He means to teach us that since He calls Himself the “I AM,” He dwells in an eternal now, although this may be difficult for us to apprehend. There is enough of the ruins of our original state left in us to get some light from this astounding fact of God’s eternity. This is what He means to tell us when the Word says that “with whom is no variableness, neither shadow which is caused by turning” (James 1:17, literal rendering). There is no temporal movement in God, no transitoriness, no shadows. He is a glorious, bright, unchanging Reality.

    The verse in 2 Peter 3:8 is meant to teach us the same truth:

    “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” It takes just such a temporal expression to convey the idea to us that time conditions do not prevail in God’s absolute domain.

    It is clearly taught in the Scriptures that the ages have not only a beginning but also an end. We have already shown even if the ages or time continued forever that that would not be eternity. The use of the plural “ages” shows that some end before another or others begin.

    If one has seen the absolute difference between time and eternity, he will understand that making time endless, we do not get eternity, for eternity means the absence of time, viz., timelessness.

    Eternity in its absolute sense only obtains when time ceases. An old writer puts the matter clearly:

    “Whatever suffers the condition of time, even tho it never began to be, and should never cease to be, yet it can not be called eternal. For it does not comprehend and the embrace whole at once; it has lost yesterday, and has not yet gained tomorrow.”

    There is no word in the Bible, nor in the nature of the case can there be, for a “forever” or an “eternity” of time, because time ends when God becomes “all in all” and then only is there the full eternity.

    The scientific world has been somewhat startled by the theory of relativity which Dr. Einstein has recently promulgated. It is largely acknowledged that by this theory alone can many of the new problems of light and electro-dynamics find solution. Without making any pronouncement on this subject, the author may be permitted to point out an analogy which may apply to his own field. He is convinced that the consistent recognition of the difference between time and eternity will accomplish for Biblical problems all that the new theory promises to do for natural science.

    “The term relativity refers to time and space; according to Galileo and Newton, time and space were absolute entities and the moving systems of the universe were dependent on this absolute time and space. On this conception was built the science of mechanics. The resulting formulas sufficed for all motions of a slow nature; it was found, however, that they would not conform to the rapid notions apparent in electro-dynamics.”

    …We also know from Heb. 1:8, in the original, of the close connection of “the age of the ages” and the Millennium. It reads in the literal Greek, ''But to the Son (He says) Thy throne O God, (is) for the Age of the Age." In this verse it implies that the grandest age of all springs forth from the millennial age, which is often spoken of as the age for Israel as a nation. Hence we think of these two ages and only two as the supreme ages in God’s economy. As far as God’s revelation of the ages is concerned these two ages are The Ages par excellence that lie in the future. Eternity in its absolute sense does not emerge till after these two ages are ended. This idiomatic use of two ages being called supreme, by styling them "the ages of the ages,” is paralleled in more than one place in Scripture.

    …A similar construction is found in Lev. 21:22. With this key the two future ages are found to be the most glorious ages of all. The theory of “ages tumbling on ages” or an infinite series of ages is purely imaginary. These are the two definite, final ages and always have the definite article before them. Time comes to an end when the ages end and eternity, with God “all in all,” becomes an accomplished reality.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    Dear Paidion: The chapter under consideration is not so much about time ending, but an entire new dimension of zao life beginning in the Son as death is swallowed up in one gigantic gulp of triumph.

  11. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

    In regards to space-time, I am fond of restating Genesis 1:1 like so:

    In the beginning [time]

    God [Spirit]

    created [energy]

    the heaven [space]

    and the earth. [matter]

    I also note that there is no mention of any creation of Hell. Woot!
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    I came not to judge the world, but to save the world -John 12:47

    “When I first began to believe in the reconciliation of the world, I fell on my knees and put my head on the floor and cried tears of joy. The revelation came to me in a flash, like lightning and immediately I received it as truth.

    God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. 2 Cor.5:19.

    All will be judged then reconciled back to God so that He will be All in all.

    God is a consuming fire and will burn out all the dross from everyone." -Virgene Andrews-
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    God does NOT run a heavenly casino of chance!

    Chance= sunkuria

    Literally a meeting together with, a coincidence of circumstances.

    A happening.

    The word signifies a concurrence of events rather than chance.

    From tunchano= to happen.

    “He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth.”

    Everything= ta panta= the all
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    No more let sins and sorrows grow,
    nor thorns infest the ground;
    he comes to make his blessings flow
    far as the curse is found,
    far as the curse is found,
    far as, far as the curse is found. -Isaac Watts-

    Curse= katanathema=

    By metonymy: accursed thing put to the thing announced.

    "The leaves of the Tree are for healing the nations. Never again will anything be cursed. The Throne of God and of the Lamb is at the center. His servants will offer God service—worshiping, they’ll look on his face, their foreheads mirroring God. Never again will there be any night. No one will need lamplight or sunlight. The shining of God, the Master, is all the light anyone needs. And they will rule with him age after age after age." -The Message-
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  17. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    "This resurrection life you received from God is not a timid, grave-tending life. It’s adventurously expectant, greeting God with a childlike “What’s next, Papa?” God’s Spirit touches our spirits and confirms who we really are. We know who he is, and we know who we are: Father and children. And we know we are going to get what’s coming to us—an unbelievable inheritance! We go through exactly what Christ goes through. If we go through the hard times with him, then we’re certainly going to go through the good times with him!

    That’s why I don’t think there’s any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what’s coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens." -The Message-

    The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free...
  19. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    "Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world."

    "Takes away"= airo=

    To take upon one's self/ to bear.

    To bear away what has been raised/ carry off.

    To move from its place.

    To take off or away what is attached to anything.

    To remove. To carry off or away with one.

    To appropriate what is taken.

    To take away from another what is his or what is committed to him/ to take by force.

    plan b=

    There is no plan b!

    The inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race.

    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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