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Featured The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Wrong! Saint Stephen. "God IS the Saviour of ALL mankind>>>

    especially

    those who believe /trust in Him."

    Please note

    Especially= malista

    Malista is NOT monon or monos!
     
  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Eternal separation.

    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
    He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
    9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might
     
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Saint Steven: Apollumi is the word linked with olethros destruction, and in fact rests on it. In either case it can be demonstrated that both have salvation encapsulated within the operation. In the case of the individual turned over to Satan (no indication he was a believer) but surely an attendee in Corinth for olethros destruction, salvation is most assuredly in the final chapter, and his spirit being “saved” in the day of the Lord.

    Loss? Definitely, but salvation of his spirit.

    Apollumi is rooted in olethros and is used in numerous passages of the New Covenant: again salvation is linked with this word.

    Let us listen carefully to the Master of the Reconciliation…

    "If you save your life, you will apollumi it. But if you apollumi your life for My sake you will save it."
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  4. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint:

    Olethron Aionion
    eternal destruction
    -Dr.Marvin Vincent-

    'Aion
    , transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: "The period which includes the whole time of one's life is called the aeon of each one." Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one's life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160).

    It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not "a stationary and mechanical value" (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities. There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow's life, another of an oak's life.

    The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

    It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21.

    Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3.

    The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time.

    Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

    It does not mean something endless or everlasting.

    To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject's life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. "The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum."

    In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons.

    A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, 'o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8).

    The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

    The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time.

    Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

    They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios.

    Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

    Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

    Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God's relations to time.

    God's eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact.

    The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

    There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

    That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it.

    Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of "the everlasting power and divinity of God." In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context.

    He has said that "the mystery" has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation.

    To the same effect is the title 'o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

    The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

    Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon.

    I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking.

    In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father's commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

    Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: "In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration.

    'Eternal life' is that which St. Paul speaks of as'e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and 'e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order."

    Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality.

    Its character is ethical rather than mathematical. The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing.

    In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. '

    Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

    In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

    If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish.

    Peter says "the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, "they shall perish" (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal.

    "They shall be changed" (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, "the Son of man came to save that which was lost" (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, "He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it," Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

    In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

    It is "destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power," at his second coming, in the new aeon.

    In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ.

    Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ's coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined.

    In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.
     
  5. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint Steven: how are you regarding Hebrew? You are surely aware that there are over 20 distinct words for destruction. Would you be able to tell us how many of those words link destruction with being bought to change & transformation?
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Romans 1:22
    Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
     
  7. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    You know me well enough to know that 'seriously' is how I take all that I believe to be the truth.
    I believe his very next post went from a (hocus pocus) or 'invisible nothing substantive' from you as a rebuttal, to his very enlightening rebuttal of the Greek lexicon of Arndt and Gingrich. IOW presto something besides 'unsubstantiated' opinion brother.

    And yet here you are wasting no time jumping in the box of orthodoxy to defend that very FEAR base doctrine, and pretty boldly. I said you should come here to ask questions if you really wanted to know why ETERNAL HELL is the very doctrine of EMOTION that you so quickly judged me/us of having in your first PM to me. We merely prove we are believing as the church did for 500 years before the Great Apostasy of Rome took over.

    "The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
    by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
    German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

    "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other
    theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So, not only do you claim that "eternal" is not eternal and "punishment" is not punishment, you also claim that the Bible does not say what it means, nor mean what it says. IOW, you are saying that the Bible only means what you claim it says. Thus making us dependent on you to discover the truth. Right?
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Fear based?
    I provided the scripture. That makes it biblically based. The emotionally driven position is no match.
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint: I suggest you take some time off from posting and explore aidios and aionios. From there you can perhaps examine the Father of all fathers purpose and outcome of punishment.
     
  11. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The primary definition of the koine kolazo= correction

    "Punish kolazo primarily denotes "to curtail, prune, dock" (from kolos, "docked"); then, "to check, restrain, punish;" it is used in the Middle Voice in Acts 4:21

    The original word kolasis, supposed to teach the doctrine of endless punishment, was frequently applied, as lexicographers inform us, to the pruning of trees. In this sense, its application here is full of significance. It shows at once the important object of punishment, viz.: to improve and benefit man. For what purpose are trees pruned? Not to injure them, certainly; but to improve them. Such being clearly the object of punishment, under the government of an all-wise and benevolent God, hence this term kolasis was appropriately employed in the text.

    Lexicographers define kolasis thus: "Punishment, chastisement, correction, the pruning of trees."

    This "everlasting punishment" (aionios kolasis) is designed for some wise and benevolent purpose, not absolutely to injure, but ultimately to benefit and improve those chastened.
     
  12. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    Because that's what happens here in the CONTROVERSIAL thread. Have you so soon forgotten 'the ladies' take concerning you?

    Ahh, the very same question I asked of you in your 'one' PM response to a pretty lengthy thread I wasted a lot of time on...remember me saying that? But unlike you, I will answer it.
    Salvation is more about a quality of life in time, than it is a quantity of time in life. That is the scriptural definition of the Greek word which gets defined as ETERNITY by the HELL YESSER scholars.

    YLT JOH 17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send - Jesus Christ;

    Good you're still asking questions. What does scripture say?

    1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

    ROM 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; 20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now;

    IOW I believe that scripture is saying those who are LED of the Spirit of God are SONS OF GOD....not those who got saved and warmed their butt on a pew to avoid burning in ETERNAL HELL. So it would appear that "the creation" itself considers us a special class of people...if we attain to the maturity of BEING a 'first fruit'. Does your church even teach on that? Have you ever even heard of THAT?

    I believe I'm still reading him exactly right. IF GOD SAVES then he is living a farce of a life, because he isn't living life now. Hence he doesn't really line up with the BIBLE definition of having aionian life now by "knowing God and his son Jesus".
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  13. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Saint: how are you making out with the 20+ distinct words for destruction? If you require assistance please let poor old F.L. know.

    The whole of created life shall be delivered/ set free from bondage
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  14. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    Oh, you mean a kneejerk reaction like this? Fine Linen has posted way over your pay grade....and you know how I know? Because it is over MINE. I recognize that....while you, post this. Come on Steve. I know you can do better here.
    No, we do believe and have BOTH posted so. You aren't reading or comprehending. But we believe in punishMENT that has a purpose. ETERNAL PunishING purposeless Sadistic torture which is eternally more unloving than even Hitler could attain too. Because even the Jews could die and be free of his gulags.

    ISA 26:9 My soul yearns for thee in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks thee. For when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. 10 If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness;

    ETERNAL HELL theology makes GOD eternally Hitler. GOD's punishments purge the wicked of unrighteousness now in this earth and 'then' in their "earthen vessels" and the smoke of that torment ISN'T THEM....it is what our God will consume from them to deal with their unrighteousness.

    HEB 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.
     
  15. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    Go tell me how many times the apostle Paul greatest evangelist in the NT church used the word hell. And report back on this one Steve, because I have a surprise for you.

    As I feared in my one PM attempt with you Steve, this thread is already consuming too much of my time. I need to take a break also. I know you have way more to study, if you'd really like to show yourself approved also. And I'm really surprise that all those guys you named are missing here, aren't you?
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Hillsage there will be no breaks for you! On second thought, come away for a small season and join PastorMike and I on the other Board.

    I’m an open book to you; even from a distance, you know what I’m thinking.

    You know when I leave and when I get back; I’m never out of your sight.

    You know everything I’m going to say before I start the first sentence.

    I look behind me and you’re there, then up ahead and you’re there, too— your reassuring presence, coming and going.

    This is too much, too wonderful— I can’t take it all in!

    Is there anyplace I can go to avoid your Spirit? to be out of your sight?

    If I climb to the sky, you’re there! If I go underground, you’re there!

    If I flew on morning’s wings to the far western horizon, You’d find me in a minute— you’re already there waiting!

    Then I said to myself, “Oh, he even sees me in the dark! At night I’m immersed in the light!”

    It’s a fact: darkness isn’t dark to you; night and day, darkness and light, they’re all the same to you.

    Oh yes, you shaped me first inside, then out; you formed me in my mother’s womb.

    I thank you, High God—you’re breathtaking! Body and soul, I am marvelously made!

    I worship in adoration—what a creation!

    You know me inside and out, you know every bone in my body;

    You know exactly how I was made, bit by bit, how I was sculpted from nothing into something.

    Like an open book, you watched me grow from conception to birth; all the stages of my life were spread out before you,

    The days of my life all prepared before I’d even lived one day. -The Message-
     
  17. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    1) That doesn't make it right.
    2) Still against forum policy, even in this area.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Why would you gauge whether something was a waste of time based on my response? (or lack thereof) I asked for your position. How I respond is my choice. You chose to do it. (and are still doing it) Is this wasting more time? At least you may have a general audience here.

    Furthermore, I didn't labor it because you indicated that you didn't want to argue or spend a lot of time with it. (something like that) I thanked you for the effort and came over here to continue. I was opposed to the position when you first mentioned it, but I wanted to hear you out. And I promised to grill you if we got into it. I think I am keeping up my end pretty well. You don't want me to argue, but I reserve the right to argue if I wish. This is a forum after all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    How inclusive is "all"? What about those who don't belong to him? Will they be made alive? I suppose that depends on how we define "firstfruits". (seems to refer to those preceding the Second Coming - "then, when he comes")

    1 Corinthians 15:22-23 NIV
    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
     
  20. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    It seems that the firstfruits are in reference to those prior to the Second Coming. At least according to the scripture you provided (1CO 15:22) Nothing about a level of maturity. How are such things measured? Could I have been more mature? (of course) Was I mature enough? (who could say) -- As soon as we add ANYTHING to the vicarious atonement it causes problems.

    You seem to be claiming that people who heeded Christ's warnings about hell aren't really saved, but then claiming everyone will be saved. Seems contradictory somehow. Will those pew-polishers be punished for joining the church?
     
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