Masks Are Essentially Worthless

[NotreDame]

You're ignoring the studies which clearly say cloth masks don't work. It doesn't matter if everyone is wearing a cloth mask, if they don't work then they don't work. The fact that numbers are rising throughout masked Europe suggests that the mask is nothing but a placebo.

This ignores the possibility the rising positives in Europe is A.) People have began using less of them B.) people are not social distancing C.) Combination of A and B.

The rising numbers in Europe are not necessarily an indictment of the futility in using masks.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Too late......they are already sold out.

The Honeywell 760008A gas mask is available at Amazon. You just need to get the filters (7580P100 filter) which is for the virus (which is an added cost). Expensive, but if you plan on flying (In an emergency) it may be worth it.

 

[NotreDame]

Do you understand the difference between what is legislated, or mandated or even just a policy?

They cannot make wearing a mask in to a law, because that would be legislatively unconstitutional. Thusly, they attempt to enforce an unlegislated non-law, as law, by coercive means. It has no teeth. You cannot be prosecuted for an opinion or non legislated issues. There is no law to be broken, it is therefore unenforceable. Kind of like a 'mandatory' evacuation before a storm. It is not enforceable by law, cannot be legislatively enacted, and is nothing more that a stern warning.

They cannot make wearing a mask in to a law, because that would be legislatively unconstitutional.

Who is "they"?

Why would such a law be unconstitutional?

 

[Neostarwcc]

I forgot a comment. I was going to say honestly? If parts of the world were not complying with the mask laws in effect in much of the world, this disease would be MUCH worse than it is now. We wouldnt just be seeing under a million deaths globally. The global death and sick toll would be MUCH higher.

This illness is almost comparable to the black death for elderly people and people like me who are prone to getting seriously sick from this.

 

[Redwingfan9]

They are. Surgical masks work because instead of the virus or bacteria from said disease going into your mouth it goes onto the mask instead. That's why if you touch the front of the mask with your hand and then touch your mouth you will get the disease. But if you dispose of it properly (grab it by the sides and throw it away) then you wont get the disease.

Cloth masks are made the exact same way and fulfill that purpose the CV goes on the mask instead of in your mouth and you throw it away properly

My mother insists it's safe unlike with surgical masks to even wash the cloth masks in the washing machine afterwards and reuse them. But I don't agree with her on everything. Although, shes probably right. She was a highly educated nurse for many years. Half of the time my mom knows more than half of our doctors...

Except that a dozen studies say that cloth masks don't work and they aren't the same as surgical masks.

 

[Halbhh]

I've reported the OP as deadly disinformation.

It's deadly misleading, in that it seems to suggest (to the great majority that will not read research details) that
"Masks Are Essentially Worthless" -- a very misleading summary, since it does not qualify that is only for front line medical staff, but seems as if for everyone everywhere.

A misleading title which is likely to get some people killed by the virus that would not have died if they had at least worn a partially effective cloth mask, because initial viral exposure -- amount of virus initially breathed in, number of particles -- has a big effect on the resulting severity of illness. Going without any mask will get some average non-medical worker people killed that would have survived if they had instead gotten exposed to a lower amount of virus from wearing a partly effective cloth mask.

 

[Halbhh]

The problem is in the title wording: it seems to imply cloth masks are useless for everyone....

But in fact, they are going to save a lot of lives among average people that are not medical workers.



" In community settings, however, cloth masks may be used to prevent community spread of infections by sick or asymptomatically infected persons, and the public should be educated about their correct use."
Effectiveness of Cloth Masks for Protection Against Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2

 

[LostMarbels]

I disagree with you!

And?

Isn't it awesome you have the protected right to have dissenting/counterpoised opinions? Do you get that? We both hold that right to disagree? And we are both limited in our censorship of that opposing view? Some would call that 'tolerance' even, by protecting dissenting views from being abolished/outlawed. It is not only one side that is allowed to voice their opinions.

If people cannot see that the government is trying to do what's best for the greater good, this country is so far gone that it may be past the point of no return.

The government does not have the authority to force this issue.

This is why I want to leave. At least other countries, while they disliked being shutdown, the citizens did it because they care for their fellow countrymen. Their countries also supported the people while they were staying home, something our government is unwilling to really do.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[RaymondG]

The Honeywell 760008A gas mask is available at Amazon. You just need to get the filters (7580P100 filter) which is for the virus (which is an added cost). Expensive, but if you plan on flying (In an emergency) it may be worth it.

They look cool......Have to make sure you get the correct filter though........Have you tried one?

 

[Yekcidmij]

Especially in light of the dire negative consequences that the governments actions have had on society, from enforced social distancing to economic shutdowns and school closures. The cure is worse than the virus.

I'm curious about the economic costs you've calculated. What are the economic costs of letting the virus run it's course without any mitigation measures? Why think that the economy would do better under those conditions? Under those conditions, you have to at least allow for the possibility that people will social distance, wear masks, and conduct other risk reduction measures on their own until the virus doesn't present a significant risk. This could make the costs to the aggregate economy worse than implementing risk reduction measures now, as a sufficient number of people may feel the need to conduct more of these measures themselves and for a longer period of time if they perceive the virus to be a risk to themselves and those around them. I find it hard to believe that people won't respond any differently to high infection rates and increased risks and instead would treat everything as normal.

So it's not necessarily true that "the cure is worse than the virus" since this claim requires knowledge of some set of counterfactual worlds. And I'd be interested in how you arrive at your economic calculations.

 

[HatGuy]

The notion that science has determined that masks are going to save us from Chinese Coronavirus (or any other disease) is utter tosh. Anyone telling you science is settled on any issue should raise a red flag. On masks, science isn't close to settled.

The British Journal of Medicine says cloth masks are 97% useless. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

A study of the more serious 1918 flu pandemic showed masks useless. The American Journal of Public Health (AJPH) from the American Public Health Association (APHA) publications

Another study shows cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks. A cluster randomised trial of cloth masks compared with medical masks in healthcare workers

Other studies show cloth masks useless compared to surgical masks, even the latter are questionable. They include:
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_pdf/-char/en

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf

https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf

https://academic.oup.com/annweh/article/54/7/789/202744

Masks are associated with oxygen deprivation and increased rates of infection according to these studies:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29395560/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32590322/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30169507/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222/

A 2015 British study on surgical masks revealed masks don't really protect patient or surgeon very much. And that's in sterile settings. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...-KkzpdkmzltnAf-GXp7gMeQkkyeZJ6gEs7G5h8PHln_R0

Finally, one New England Journal of Medicine editorial acknowledged the uselessness of masks but demanded universal masking nonetheless less for its placebo effect. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

There is plenty of evidence out there that masks and mask mandates aren't working and in fact are causing harm. They're a placebo to make you think you're protected and to make politicians look like they're doing something when they're in reality doing nothing.

Do your own research.

I don't understand why anyone wants to die on this hill.

Boredom?

I dunno. I don't care if the mask works or not. Wearing one increases my odds of being able to be kind and polite to others. It won't be forever. It wasn't in 1918 and it won't be in 2020.

 

[Halbhh]

If you are in the U.S. (or other nations with very high spread such as Brazil or South Africa) -- then you could care about how average people who are not medical workers could save a lot of lives (other people and their own life also) by wearing even just partly effective cloth masks.

 

[LoricaLady]

I would also caution against masks with the air vents......as they allow unfiltered air to pass through them (ending the notion of the public being protected from the mask wearer) and I've found that the flimsy vent flaps do not stay closed on their own....they only close fully with strong inhalations.....unfiltered air enters(through the vent) during normal breathing and at the start of strong inhalations.

Yes there is a good explanation for why you are able to breath so much better in them.....it is like you aren't wearing anything at all....

Thanks! Very useful. Now I know what kind of mask to get for when a store demands I wear one!

 

[Redwingfan9]

I'm curious about the economic costs you've calculated. What are the economic costs of letting the virus run it's course without any mitigation measures? Why think that the economy would do better under those conditions? Under those conditions, you have to at least allow for the possibility that people will social distance, wear masks, and conduct other risk reduction measures on their own until the virus doesn't present a significant risk. This could make the costs to the aggregate economy worse than implementing risk reduction measures now, as a sufficient number of people may feel the need to conduct more of these measures themselves and for a longer period of time if they perceive the virus to be a risk to themselves and those around them. I find it hard to believe that people won't respond any differently to high infection rates and increased risks and instead would treat everything as normal.

So it's not necessarily true that "the cure is worse than the virus" since this claim requires knowledge of some set of counterfactual worlds. And I'd be interested in how you arrive at your economic calculations.

I don't doubt there would be economic issues regardless. However there is a huge difference between free people making voluntary choices and governments shutting down our lives, ordering us to stay home and mandating the closing of our connection to the outside world.

That said, suicides are up this year. Opioid overdoses are also up. Well over 10 million have lost their jobs and over 30% of mortgages are delinquent. All of this over an outmoded fear of death, driven by a hysteria driven media and a collection of governments that have no idea what they're doing.

As a Christian I say all of this should drive people to the church but even the church is largely cowering in fear, either of the virus or Caesar.

 

[Redwingfan9]

I don't understand why anyone wants to die on this hill.

Boredom?

I dunno. I don't care if the mask works or not. Wearing one increases my odds of being able to be kind and polite to others. It won't be forever. It wasn't in 1918 and it won't be in 2020.

Masks were found not to make any difference in 1918 and they're making no difference today. If your idea of being kind and polite includes meaningless gestures, that's your business. My idea of mind and polite does not include putting on fake displays for people.

 

[Halbhh]

I don't doubt there would be economic issues regardless. However there is a huge difference between free people making voluntary choices and governments shutting down our lives, ordering us to stay home and mandating the closing of our connection to the outside world.

That said, suicides are up this year. Opioid overdoses are also up. Well over 10 million have lost their jobs and over 30% of mortgages are delinquent. All of this over an outmoded fear of death, driven by a hysteria driven media and a collection of governments that have no idea what they're doing.

As a Christian I say all of this should drive people to the church but even the church is largely cowering in fear, either of the virus or Caesar.

Dust to dust, for these temporary bodies, and we all should always be aware that this day or this month can be our last, just as the normal attitude.

About the title of this OP -- you could change it by editing it (Thread Tools button at top right side of OP post), to be more accurate.

The title "Masks Are Essentially Worthless" -- is very dangerous, because it seems as if it means for everyone, even non-medical average people. That's misleading, because for non-medical people, average Americans, even partly effective cloth masks will save many lives (even though they are not good enough for medical workers and other high exposure situations)

Effectiveness of Cloth Masks for Protection Against Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2

 

[HatGuy]

Masks were found not to make any difference in 1918 and they're making no difference today. If your idea of being kind and polite includes meaningless gestures, that's your business. My idea of mind and polite does not include putting on fake displays for people.

If someone is asking me to wear a mask because they are scared, I don't see it a meaningless gesture to help them out a bit. It's not a 'display', it's just a simple kindness.

It's a mountain out of a molehill in my opinion.

 

[NotreDame]

Masks were found not to make any difference in 1918 and they're making no difference today. If your idea of being kind and polite includes meaningless gestures, that's your business. My idea of mind and polite does not include putting on fake displays for people.

Masks were found not to make any difference in 1918

No, this is not true. This is patently false by the very language of the 1918 study. First, the study examined gauze masks, not the cloth or surgical masks of today.

Second, the study did find the gauze mask made a difference, judging by the reduction of bacterial cultures on the petri dish in contrast to the bacterial cultures on the petri dish when no gauze mask was used.

My idea of mind and polite does not include putting on fake displays for people

Just peddling inaccurate information and misrepresentations of the studies you cite to in your post.

 

[NotreDame]

I don't doubt there would be economic issues regardless. However there is a huge difference between free people making voluntary choices and governments shutting down our lives, ordering us to stay home and mandating the closing of our connection to the outside world.

That said, suicides are up this year. Opioid overdoses are also up. Well over 10 million have lost their jobs and over 30% of mortgages are delinquent. All of this over an outmoded fear of death, driven by a hysteria driven media and a collection of governments that have no idea what they're doing.

As a Christian I say all of this should drive people to the church but even the church is largely cowering in fear, either of the virus or Caesar.

Let's not blur caution and fear to the point of mistakenly treating them as synonymous.

 

[Halbhh]

If someone is asking me to wear a mask because they are scared, I don't see it a meaningless gesture to help them out a bit. It's not a 'display', it's just a simple kindness.

It's a mountain out of a molehill in my opinion.

And a partly effective mask could save your temporary mortal life, for a few more years or however long you might have if you don't die of this virus.

That's the science.

This was an early hint about that -- it's a long known phenomena:
How much of the coronavirus does it take to make you sick? - STAT

The amount of virus in initial exposure affects the severity of illness. That's crucial when many get quite ill and near the border of making it or dying. A difference matters for so many.