Donald's Fourth of July message

FireDragon76 · Jul 5, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
When you say "belongs to them" do you mean held in trust? Or they own it as private property?

Apparently, I need to make a clarification, as NPR's description of the situation is oversimplified: the Sioux claim the land but the Federal government in the past tried to force them to accept a settlement in compensation for their land being appropriated unlawfully in the late 19th century (the Sioux are disinterested in money for the land they consider sacred and religious in nature). Obama tried to reopen negotiations with the Oglalla Sioux during his presidency, but the Federal government is back to its old policies of trying to force the Sioux to settle after Trump was elected.

A U.N. commission on aboriginal peoples has recommended that the land be returned to the Sioux people. So it seems to me its clear the land is actually part of the Sioux nation but since Native Americans are US citizens and not stateless people, it is really a question of tribal sovereignty and jurisdiction more than the notion that the land is "private".

camille70 · Jul 5, 2020

pitabread said:
I've been reading up on how and why people like Trump can gain power, and fear-mongering seems to a primary factor. And this post is a nice example of just that.

"Vote for Trump! Otherwise, they'll come for you! Dun-dun-dun!"

Remind me of a video I watched earlier. It mentioned fear also.

Nithavela · Jul 5, 2020

istodolez said:
If the left gets its way the horrors will be immense:

1. Accessible affordable healthcare
2. Expanded family leave
3. Improved social safety net
4. Racial equity
5. Reduction in gun violence, gun deaths and mass shootings.

I honestly can't think of a worse place to live than a place that has all that! YIKES

The left doesn't want those, or they would have supported Sanders.

The left just wants to beat Trump. They offer nothing new, just more of the same, but slightly less evil.

Nithavela · Jul 5, 2020

Fantine said:
Sounding more and more like Hitler every day.

Nah, still Mussolini.

Ana the Ist · Jul 5, 2020

TLK Valentine said:
So he is worried about that... are you?

I'm simply pointing out there's more than one way to deface a monument.

Well, we could go with that definition... or a useful one:

Wikipedia probably isn't the best source.

Personally, I'm against Donald needlessly injecting his opinions as facts... and I can't think of a single time when it hasn't been needless.

Good dodge.

I don't approve of anyone trying to control speech...

I find that doubtful.

and some monuments deserve to be removed from the public square...

Opinion.

If the leftist mobs are such a problem, why not join Donald's army to fight them?

He has an army?

For a man with "bone spurs," he sure does love the militaristic lingo, doesn't he?

Silence is violence....I've heard.

Ana the Ist · Jul 5, 2020

TLK Valentine said:
My tax dollars at work. Uncle Sam's going to take my money no matter what... what's the difference between using it to support reparations and using it to buy a few more B-2 bombers?

You mean other than the fact that taxing people according to race would be illegal?

Ana the Ist · Jul 5, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Apparently, I need to make a clarification, as NPR's description of the situation is oversimplified: the Sioux claim the land but the Federal government in the past tried to force them to accept a settlement in compensation for their land being appropriated unlawfully in the late 19th century (the Sioux are disinterested in money for the land they consider sacred and religious in nature). Obama tried to reopen negotiations with the Oglalla Sioux during his presidency, but the Federal government is back to its old policies of trying to force the Sioux to settle after Trump was elected.

A U.N. commission on aboriginal peoples has recommended that the land be returned to the Sioux people. So it seems to me its clear the land is actually part of the Sioux nation but since Native Americans are US citizens and not stateless people, it is really a question of tribal sovereignty and jurisdiction more than the notion that the land is "private".

Yeah people tend not to understand the complexity of the issue.

I think it's about 90% of tribal land that's in trust in perpetuity and 10% that's privately owned.

The downside to the trust is that since they don't own it, it's not very profitable.

The downside to private ownership is, of course, that it can be sold which tends to end in the dissolution of tribal land.

Ana the Ist · Jul 5, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
That's not exclusive to fascism.

There's actually no aspect of fascism exclusive to fascism. That's part of what makes it tricky to define.

If you can tell me the difference between the nazi uprising and the October revolution other than the words they used...I'm all ears.

FireDragon76 · Jul 5, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
There's actually no aspect of fascism exclusive to fascism. That's part of what makes it tricky to define.

If you can tell me the difference between the nazi uprising and the October revolution other than the words they used...I'm all ears.

Political ideology. Nazis were a right wing movement drawing on traditional German culturally imagery, whereas the October revolution was a left wing revolution meant to overthrow the old order in Tsarist Russia and establish a socialist state.

BTW, I don't think they can be morally equivocated. The Tsarist regime was oppressive and built upon superstitions, what many socialists in Russia wanted varied between a democratic, progerssive society, all the way to the authoritarian structure of the Bolsheviks. So it's hard to portray the October Revolution as inherently evil.

FireDragon76 · Jul 5, 2020

Ana the Ist said:
Yeah people tend not to understand the complexity of the issue.

I guess it doesn't make for good sounds bites to just say it's disputed land.

FireDragon76 · Jul 5, 2020

camille70 said:
Remind me of a video I watched earlier. It mentioned fear also.

Rev. Schenk is somebody I have been following ever since I saw the film "Armor of Light".

Also, having Dietrich Bonhoeffer as an inspiration is wonderful. A truly insightful man who had a prophetic insight into the problems of the modern world, and also a brilliant theologian who paved the way for a great deal of modern post-liberal theology. More Christians should really listen to him, and not merely idolize him.

Reading and "discipling" with Bonhoeffer really did lead my Christianity in a radical direction and eventually towards confronting the established Christianity I found myself in. So it can be a dangerous choice. But there is no substitute for the pursuit of truth.

Ana the Ist · Jul 5, 2020

FireDragon76 said:
Political ideology. Nazis were a right wing movement drawing on traditional German culturally imagery, whereas the October revolution was a left wing revolution meant to overthrow the old order in Tsarist Russia and establish a socialist state.

BTW, I don't think they can be morally equivocated. The Tsarist regime was oppressive and built upon superstitions, what many socialists in Russia wanted varied between a democratic, progerssive society, all the way to the authoritarian structure of the Bolsheviks. So it's hard to portray the October Revolution as inherently evil.

Well let's just start with similarities....

They're both...

Popular uprisings.
Scapegoating members of society.
Propaganda heavy.
Cult of personality around central figures.
Deliberately silenced dissenters with violence.
Intended to create socialist economies.
Deliberately slaughtered members of society.
Authoritarian dictatorships.

Differences...

I suppose that one is a bottom-up power grab while the other is top-down. Fascism still allowed for some autonomy of private businesses while communism mostly slaughters those running a successful private business. Ummmm...

I suppose this is less fair but probably worth mentioning....since fascism tends toward acquiring more land for farming and communism basically annihilates the economy....you get a staggering amount of starvation and poverty under communism.

"People who eat one other because of the famine are not cannibals. Cannibals are those who don't want to redistribute the church's gold to the starving."

That's straight from a Soviet propaganda poster....you know, when they were eating their children and each other.

We agree they are not morally equivalent.

disciple Clint · Jul 5, 2020

istodolez said:
Maybe these people you think "hate" America actually want America to be as good as it can be. But what they hate is what people like Trump have brought to the fore as "virtue".

And many of us are quite well educated with good jobs meaning we probably pay more in taxes than most of Trump's most ardent supporters (outside of the business people he services), so in a sense we have the RIGHT to demand more from America than we see.

Perhaps it is the deplorables who should leave?

Elitist attitude and the hate that goes with it

disciple Clint · Jul 5, 2020

istodolez said:
Oh really? How would you know? If you are an American all the "good" things you enjoy (5 day work weeks, minimum wage, social security, unemployment, worker safety, consumer safety) all came from that same approach. In fact you have never lived in any other kind of America (unless you are 120+ years old).

I would love to see your evidence for those statements.

Larniavc · Jul 5, 2020

Mantishand said:
...lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy.

Isn't that a perfect description of Mr Trump, himself?

Nithavela · Jul 5, 2020

Larnievc said:
Isn't that a perfect description of Mr Trump, himself?

Some things are missing.

disciple Clint · Jul 5, 2020

Larnievc said:
Isn't that a perfect description of Mr Trump, himself?

you totally failed to read the post.

Larniavc · Jul 5, 2020

disciple Clint said:
you totally failed to read the post.

No, no, I did read the rest of the post. The use of the words that I referred was what I was lampooning.

Do you see now?

Larniavc · Jul 5, 2020

Searching1God said:
Please go check the border with Mexico. You have people from all over Latin America, as well as people coming as far as Africa and Asia trying to cross, trying to get in. You are telling me they couldn't find a better option between all those places and the US?

You do realise that many, many people end up trying to get into America because they were turned away from European countries?

When there are no other options, America is the best option.

Larniavc · Jul 5, 2020

Fantine said:
Sounding more and more like Hitler every day.

But hopefully he will not get a second term.

Donald's Fourth of July message

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